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Why the Federation and Minmatar are allies
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Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-11-04 05:42:12 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

Every Caldari should remember our history and recognize that the Federal citizens who today wallow in the economic and political servitude that is the Federation are just the same as we were two centuries ago and that they should not be the victims of our spite, but rather our mercy and compassion as we seek to liberate them from Federal injustice through acts of righteous violence against their oppressors in Villore.


Just be sure that your acts of "mercy and compassion" don't involve attacks on civilian installations.


I'm sure the Caldari would suggest that you should also check your automated navigation systems to make sure that you don't accidentally bump into civilian oribital habitats in your mothership, eh?
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#62 - 2012-11-04 17:15:04 UTC
Came expecting discourse between Gallente and Minmatar about our alliance.

Found chestbeating, ego stroking, and pointless peanut-gallery comments from Amarrians and Caldari.

Left after I remembered that this is normal for the IGS.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Darc Kaahar
Space Men
#63 - 2012-11-07 01:04:44 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Came expecting discourse between Gallente and Minmatar about our alliance.

Found chestbeating, ego stroking, and pointless peanut-gallery comments from Amarrians and Caldari.

Left after I remembered that this is normal for the IGS.


Thanks for making a difference.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-11-07 01:41:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gussarde en Welle
Amaki Mai wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

Every Caldari should remember our history and recognize that the Federal citizens who today wallow in the economic and political servitude that is the Federation are just the same as we were two centuries ago and that they should not be the victims of our spite, but rather our mercy and compassion as we seek to liberate them from Federal injustice through acts of righteous violence against their oppressors in Villore.


Just be sure that your acts of "mercy and compassion" don't involve attacks on civilian installations.


I'm sure the Caldari would suggest that you should also check your automated navigation systems to make sure that you don't accidentally bump into civilian oribital habitats in your mothership, eh?


Amaki, you happened to miss my discussion with Veiktamo on the uses of terrorism, in which she freely admitted to Caldari military culpability during the Secession war for terrorist attacks on Federation-allied police outposts and offworld training camps. As far as I know, the Khanid have never been subjected to terror attacks from anyone other than their own people.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-11-07 02:02:38 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:

Amaki, you happened to miss my discussion with Veiktamo on the uses of terrorism, in which she freely admitted to Caldari military culpability during the Secession war for terrorist attacks on Federation-allied police outposts and offworld training camps. As far as the I know, the Khanid have never been subjected to terror attacks from anyone other than their own people.


Partisan units operating during the Independence War were not under the command of the State Military. Hence the term, Partisan and not Soldier. They were patriots, yes, but their operations were their own and how they chose to conduct their war was their own.

However, your concept of terrorism would also mean that the Republic and its military are today culpable for the acts of violence and death conducted by independent third-parties against the Amarr Empire and supports and condones the use of terror against Amarr civilians.

Am I to understand that you support the use of force and violence by Minmatar terrorist cells against Amarr civilian targets and the continued Federal backing of a Republic that tacitly supports such tactics to be employed?

Or this a case where dishonesty does not permit the use of equivalency in your arguments and you would prefer to call Caldari terrorists and the Minmatar noble freedom fighters without an exploration into the issues at hand?

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-11-07 06:37:21 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


Am I to understand that you support the use of force and violence by Minmatar terrorist cells against Amarr civilian targets and the continued Federal backing of a Republic that tacitly supports such tactics to be employed?



No I don't and Minmatar attacks on Amarrian family installations have been notable and reprehensible. I saw an asteroid-based Amarrian family installation in Hek two nights ago out that had been popped open, with corpses floating all around it, some of which were children.

Look, the Minmatar actions in Domain and Ammatar space are billed in the Federation media as "resistance efforts," and society at large is not really given a place to discuss it because the average Federation voter views its support of the Minmatar as an important investment in the future of humanity. (and so do the Caldari, by the way)

There's no way to address this issue legally, either. The Boudulain doctrine was not voted on anywhere outside of the Senate.

You know all this, Veikitamo. And you know how I feel about terrorism.

The Amarrian Emissarial Delegation has been notoriously silent on all this, by the way.

Maybe Ava wants to weigh in on this one, or von Khan, if he can pull himself away from his capsule for a minute. I'm probably out of my depth here. (wait for it...)
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#67 - 2012-11-07 07:03:58 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


Am I to understand that you support the use of force and violence by Minmatar terrorist cells against Amarr civilian targets and the continued Federal backing of a Republic that tacitly supports such tactics to be employed?



No I don't and Minmatar attacks on Amarrian family installations have been notable and reprehensible. I saw an asteroid-based Amarrian family installation in Hek two nights ago out that had been popped open, with corpses floating all around it, some of which were children.

Look, the Minmatar actions in Domain and Ammatar space are billed in the Federation media as "resistance efforts," and society at large is not really given a place to discuss it because the average Federation voter views its support of the Minmatar as an important investment in the future of humanity. (and so do the Caldari, by the way)

There's no way to address this issue legally, either. The Boudulain doctrine was not voted on anywhere outside of the Senate.

You know all this, Veikitamo. And you know how I feel about terrorism.

The Amarrian Emissarial Delegation has been notoriously silent on all this, by the way.

Maybe Ava wants to weigh in on this one, or von Khan, if he can pull himself away from his capsule for a minute. I'm probably out of my depth here. (wait for it...)


What's to say? Terrorism is bad? It is. Governments have a tendency to try and redefine their problems rather than solving them, and using emotionally charged labels is a great way of doing that? They are.

The truth is that every side has a tendency to excuse the negative actions of those they consider footsoldiers in a worthy cause. I'm not sure that doing evil in the name of good makes any logical sense, but at the end of the day we all have to exercise our own consciences and both make decisions and live with the consequences of those decisions.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-11-07 11:50:25 UTC
re: M. en Welle,

The point I was making was that what constitutes an act of terrorism is always a matter of perspective. I also understand that any war can be fought through a variety of means and insurgency and guerrilla actions are simply another method to conduct them - even if some may mistake it for terrorism. What matters is the intent, killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians is to be abhorred, but during a war there will always be collateral damage in the pursuit of military objectives and that is an unavoidable tragedy. During the Independence War however, the Federation chose to respond to an isolated act of terrorism not with restraint but with the collective punishment of a people they deemed inferior through the use of wide-area orbital bombardment of civilian cities and starvation on the Homeworld.

My earlier point that you chose to raise was that when such an abhorrent tactic is used against a people, do not then attempt to claim moral legitimacy when some of those same people decide to strike back with the same hatred and contempt that their enemy has shown them for spilled blood never dries for the victims of injustice.

I am able to make distinctions however that the Federation in some respects is not the same as it once was during the Independence War and that the issues that face us are in the present and not in the past. If blind hatred motivated the Caldari people and the State Executor then the restraint in force and objectives in answering the strike at Malkalen and liberation of the Homeworld would not have been shown.

This is unlike the Matari insurgents, whom whilst I cannot fault them for their patriotism and convictions, continue an insurgency against the Empire who even though the victims of atrocity, violence and murder have shown remarkable constraint and diligence in protecting the lives of their citizens whilst seeking to promote and maintain interstellar peace.

Kurilaivonen|Concern