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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5901 - 2012-11-06 11:02:17 UTC
Nerfing heavy missiles isn't really going to address any balance issue - it's just going to make missioning in Tengus more irritating and less efficient (not, you understand, actually more difficult - just more boring, which runs contrary to the idea of a game, which one plays to have fun), which will make the game less fun for people who mission in Tengus.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5902 - 2012-11-06 11:11:35 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:

Theres alot awesome gallente boats.. Let me name some of them for you..

Lachesis
Arazu
Proteus (small gang)
Oneiros
Ares
Taranis
Keres
Nemesis
Enyo
Ishkur
Phobos
Deimos (small gang)
Ishtar (pve)
Talos
Myrmidon (bait/solo triple rep)
Brutix (gank/small gang)
Hyperion (bait/triple rep)
Megathron (small gang/blaster)
Dominix (pve/pvp)
Thanatos
Nyx
Moros
Erebus


Theres alot awesome Caldari boats.. Let me name some of them for you..
Rook
Falcon (because of falcon)
Tengu
Basilisk
Kitsune
Manticore
Harpy
Hawk
Hookbill
Merlin
Griffin
Onyx
Cerberus (Long range small gang)
Naga
Drake
Vulture (those bonus' and tank are really quite good, even if the ship has paper DPS)
Ferox (ASB Ferox's are slow, but good brawlers)
Scorpion
Rokh
Wyvern
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5903 - 2012-11-06 11:14:59 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:

Lachesis
Arazu
Proteus (small gang)
Oneiros
Ares
Taranis
Keres
Nemesis
Enyo
Ishkur
Phobos
Deimos (small gang)
Ishtar (pve)
Talos
Myrmidon (bait/solo triple rep)
Brutix (gank/small gang)
Hyperion (bait/triple rep)
Megathron (small gang/blaster)
Dominix (pve/pvp)
Thanatos
Nyx
Moros
Erebus

I know very well which gallente ships are good. Though, now, pick you can see in a nullsec fleet. BTW, 6 of them are frigates, and the caldari fanatics here don't want to hear anything about frigates, caldari certainly have too many good options in the frigate lineup.

Gallente have plenty of solo options, though they are not minmatar in anyway and they lack fleet options (at least in the current metagame/mindset of people), and the list OT made could be full of "no ship available" if you appy it to gallente or amarr. Caldari have many options too, both for fleet or solo/small gang. The only problem is caldari pilots being fanatics considering hybrids turrets as heresy and ECM as not offensive enough. They really miss their race choice IMO and should have opted for Amarr.

Of course, they will moan about the oportunity of skilling turrets if it's only to have half the ships you can have by crosstraining, but that's the case for everyone : amarr learning missiles for 2 or 3 ships would be better crosstraining caldari, and anyone training drones would be better crosstraining gallente. But this is completely ocluding all the secondary skills needed when you crosstrain : another type of armor, another weapons, and all the ships of course ; it's always shorter to learn your race secondary weapon than to crosstrain, always ; that's not surprising then, that if you train more skills, you have more options.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5904 - 2012-11-06 17:47:37 UTC
MIrple wrote:


Please point out how the gallente line has such a complete line up.



Frigates:

You have arguably the best T1 frigate in the game. You have two of the best AFs in the game (Ishkur and Enyo). You have an exceptional pirate faction frigate in the Comet. The Taranis and Ares are the best interceptors in the game.

Destroyers:

The Cat is considered by some to be the best destroyer in the game. It is certainly competetive with the Thrasher.

Cruisers:

The Vexor today is arguably the best T1 (non-faction) cruiser in the game, and post update it will be un-freaking-real. The Thorax is, of course, deadly. The Navy Vexor is like the conventional Vexor on PCP. The Ishtar, with the right skills, is one of the most versatile and deadly HACs in the game. The Phobos, Oneiros, Arazu, and Lachesis all have well deserved reputations for excellence. And the Proteus, obviously, is fantastic.

Battlecruisers:

The Myrmidon is one of the deadliest BCs in the game -- in the right hands. There are literally a dozen different viable fits, so you never know what you are going up against. If I had better drone skills this would be my BC of choice. The Brutix is a solid and dangerous ship. The Talos is the best T3 BC in the game, and if that's not enough with a week's training a Gallente pilot can fly the Naga.

Battleships:

Hyperion, Megathron, Domi... do I really need to elaborate? If you want more grab a Mega or Domi Navy issue.

So where, exactly, are the gaping holes? This is a solid lineup of ships. Gallente have some issues of course, the biggest (in my opinion) being medium railgun related. Further, drones and gate guns do not mix well. But whatever.

I am no expert on Gallente ships. I know that the people who use them more than me have a laundry list of issues they would like to see addressed, and I believe them. But let's not get silly and try to claim that they have an incomplete broken lineup of ships -- particularly when compared to the Caldari.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5905 - 2012-11-06 18:00:52 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've been for a spin on the test server and if anything the rebalancing seems incomplete. Caracals now output almost 90% of the dps of a Drake if you fit them right and have a longer range whilst being cheaper. It's true that they have no real tank, but hey cheap snipers shouldn't really have any tank.

That's the trade off in eve. The more dps you need to output brings you closer and closer to your opponent. Whilst the carcal has been nicely rebalanced I would have liked to have seen the same rof and velocity bonus applied to the drake to compensate for the missile nerf.

The Caldari have a ranged combat fighting style as per the eve back story and are also shield tankers. so it makes sense that their weapons of choice should be long ranged and their ships should have solid shield tanking abilities (the Drake fits the bill perfectly for this). Balancing them to the point that their weapons perform to the same degree as other races weapon systems makes your choice of weapon utterly pointless. It might be called a missile, an autocannon or a laser but if it has similar range and outputs similar dps to your opponents then what's the point? Where can you get an edge? In eve we all live and die by whatever edge we can get yet the endless rebalancing mitigates the effects of fighting styles and tactics. We might as well all equip our ships with fuzzy, buck rogers style energy beams and fire them all day. Whilst we're at it we might as well assign every frigate and every cruiser the same stats as any other one. The end result will be the same.

Anyhow I am not convinced that that this rebalancing is being done to any sort of mathematical algorithm which could prove that all ships and weapons are balanced. The case in point being how the original damage nerf was 20% and after much postin on the forum by opponents of this it's now 10%. If the rebalancing was being done to a formula that outputted a value of 20% changing it to 10% would still result in an unbalanced game. This suggests that the rebalancing is done by feel not by simulation or mathematical analysis. In which case the developers only stop working when the game feels right to them. This would further suggest that eve will never, ever, ever be a balanced game....


Shhhh! Don't tell everyone!

But yeah, that's why I find this whole crusade to nerf the Drake so silly.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5906 - 2012-11-06 18:10:11 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've been for a spin on the test server and if anything the rebalancing seems incomplete. Caracals now output almost 90% of the dps of a Drake if you fit them right and have a longer range whilst being cheaper. It's true that they have no real tank, but hey cheap snipers shouldn't really have any tank.

That's the trade off in eve. The more dps you need to output brings you closer and closer to your opponent. Whilst the carcal has been nicely rebalanced I would have liked to have seen the same rof and velocity bonus applied to the drake to compensate for the missile nerf.

The Caldari have a ranged combat fighting style as per the eve back story and are also shield tankers. so it makes sense that their weapons of choice should be long ranged and their ships should have solid shield tanking abilities (the Drake fits the bill perfectly for this). Balancing them to the point that their weapons perform to the same degree as other races weapon systems makes your choice of weapon utterly pointless. It might be called a missile, an autocannon or a laser but if it has similar range and outputs similar dps to your opponents then what's the point? Where can you get an edge? In eve we all live and die by whatever edge we can get yet the endless rebalancing mitigates the effects of fighting styles and tactics. We might as well all equip our ships with fuzzy, buck rogers style energy beams and fire them all day. Whilst we're at it we might as well assign every frigate and every cruiser the same stats as any other one. The end result will be the same.

Anyhow I am not convinced that that this rebalancing is being done to any sort of mathematical algorithm which could prove that all ships and weapons are balanced. The case in point being how the original damage nerf was 20% and after much postin on the forum by opponents of this it's now 10%. If the rebalancing was being done to a formula that outputted a value of 20% changing it to 10% would still result in an unbalanced game. This suggests that the rebalancing is done by feel not by simulation or mathematical analysis. In which case the developers only stop working when the game feels right to them. This would further suggest that eve will never, ever, ever be a balanced game....


Shhhh! Don't tell everyone!

But yeah, that's why I find this whole crusade to nerf the Drake so silly.


I to can list all the ships of a race and say they are good. If you look at fleets though most of the ships you listed are lacking. AF and frigs might be around but in fleet warfare how often do you see a Gall boat. I see from the 20 most used ships.

Kills
1 Drake 25800
2 Hurricane 18242
3 Tornado 11986
4 Rokh 9386
5 Rifter 8934
6 Naga 8765
7 Capsule 8014
8 Nyx 7209
9 Oracle 6689
10 Sabre 6511
11 Huginn 5768
12 Tengu 5560
13 Talos 5544
14 Thrasher 5527
15 Cynabal 5471
16 Abaddon 4578
17 Incursus 4569
18 Manticore 4232
19 Hound 4104
20 Loki 4101

We have 3 ships there but yes keep telling me that Gallente are great ships now cause they are used so often. Caldari have 5 Amarr have 2 Mimmy have 8 and then there is 1 pirate and pods. So when Caldari have 5 ships in the top 5 and gall have 3 how then is gall so far superior?
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#5907 - 2012-11-06 19:20:03 UTC
The missile changes do not bother me for the most part. Majority of missiles are getting a buff from what I can see. Assuming that tracking computers will eventually effect missiles - then i will gladly put those on my ship to compensate for the range lost due to the nerf. This flexibility will allow missiles to be implemented in a more diverse way. For example allowing torpedo boats to increase their total range.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5908 - 2012-11-06 21:30:46 UTC
MIrple wrote:
We have 3 ships there but yes keep telling me that Gallente are great ships now cause they are used so often. Caldari have 5 Amarr have 2 Mimmy have 8 and then there is 1 pirate and pods. So when Caldari have 5 ships in the top 5 and gall have 3 how then is gall so far superior?

This.

Gallente war doctrine focus on solo/small gang brawling, not huge fleet fights facing each other to shoot target one by one.

Minmatar are similar to the gallente in this respect, but with more verstility.

Amarr and Caldari are more focus on organised fleets.

That's why you see a lot a caldari ships in fleet doctrines (they are rather effective for this) and why you don't like them (solo/small gang pvp is not their primary strength, though that don't mean they cannot do it).

OT, caldari ships simply don't fit your playstyle, but stop saying they are bad because they are not minmatar or gallente ships.

Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Anyhow I am not convinced that that this rebalancing is being done to any sort of mathematical algorithm which could prove that all ships and weapons are balanced. The case in point being how the original damage nerf was 20% and after much postin on the forum by opponents of this it's now 10%. If the rebalancing was being done to a formula that outputted a value of 20% changing it to 10% would still result in an unbalanced game. This suggests that the rebalancing is done by feel not by simulation or mathematical analysis. In which case the developers only stop working when the game feels right to them. This would further suggest that eve will never, ever, ever be a balanced game....

Considering piloting and metagame, the ONLY result an algorithm would give to you would be "make all the ship the same". Balance is not a mathematical thing, because player tactics and piloting cannot be simulated or measured nor can be versatility or unexpetedly powerful edge cases.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5909 - 2012-11-06 22:13:33 UTC
MIrple wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've been for a spin on the test server and if anything the rebalancing seems incomplete. Caracals now output almost 90% of the dps of a Drake if you fit them right and have a longer range whilst being cheaper. It's true that they have no real tank, but hey cheap snipers shouldn't really have any tank.

That's the trade off in eve. The more dps you need to output brings you closer and closer to your opponent. Whilst the carcal has been nicely rebalanced I would have liked to have seen the same rof and velocity bonus applied to the drake to compensate for the missile nerf.

The Caldari have a ranged combat fighting style as per the eve back story and are also shield tankers. so it makes sense that their weapons of choice should be long ranged and their ships should have solid shield tanking abilities (the Drake fits the bill perfectly for this). Balancing them to the point that their weapons perform to the same degree as other races weapon systems makes your choice of weapon utterly pointless. It might be called a missile, an autocannon or a laser but if it has similar range and outputs similar dps to your opponents then what's the point? Where can you get an edge? In eve we all live and die by whatever edge we can get yet the endless rebalancing mitigates the effects of fighting styles and tactics. We might as well all equip our ships with fuzzy, buck rogers style energy beams and fire them all day. Whilst we're at it we might as well assign every frigate and every cruiser the same stats as any other one. The end result will be the same.

Anyhow I am not convinced that that this rebalancing is being done to any sort of mathematical algorithm which could prove that all ships and weapons are balanced. The case in point being how the original damage nerf was 20% and after much postin on the forum by opponents of this it's now 10%. If the rebalancing was being done to a formula that outputted a value of 20% changing it to 10% would still result in an unbalanced game. This suggests that the rebalancing is done by feel not by simulation or mathematical analysis. In which case the developers only stop working when the game feels right to them. This would further suggest that eve will never, ever, ever be a balanced game....


Shhhh! Don't tell everyone!

But yeah, that's why I find this whole crusade to nerf the Drake so silly.


I to can list all the ships of a race and say they are good. If you look at fleets though most of the ships you listed are lacking. AF and frigs might be around but in fleet warfare how often do you see a Gall boat. I see from the 20 most used ships.

Kills
1 Drake 25800
2 Hurricane 18242
3 Tornado 11986
4 Rokh 9386
5 Rifter 8934
6 Naga 8765
7 Capsule 8014
8 Nyx 7209
9 Oracle 6689
10 Sabre 6511
11 Huginn 5768
12 Tengu 5560
13 Talos 5544
14 Thrasher 5527
15 Cynabal 5471
16 Abaddon 4578
17 Incursus 4569
18 Manticore 4232
19 Hound 4104
20 Loki 4101

We have 3 ships there but yes keep telling me that Gallente are great ships now cause they are used so often. Caldari have 5 Amarr have 2 Mimmy have 8 and then there is 1 pirate and pods. So when Caldari have 5 ships in the top 5 and gall have 3 how then is gall so far superior?


Dude, seriously, I don't want to debate this with you. I listed the Gallente ships that I thought were good -- as in I wouldn't hesitate to fly them myself. If you disagree with my opinion, cool. You don't have to fly them.

And frankly, I don't give a flying $#E% what null sec mega-blob FCs consider viable for their fleets. That's not how I play the game. I am a pirate. I don't have a dozens or hundreds of people as back up, and every possible fleet role filled in triplicate. Five or six people in my gang is a damn good night, and we are usually fighting outnumbered. We don't always win, but I think we do okay.

When I look at a ship I look at what that ONE ship can do. Can it get in there, get the kill, and get out. And I look at it as a single ship because when there are only a few of you on field, and fifteen of them, your ship better be able to handle it on its own. In my opinion there are many Gallente ships that fit the bill, and that offer plenty of advantages a pilot can exploit. And more, there are bloody few Gallente hulls that are complete crap -- something that cannot be said for the Caldari.

I understand that some folks (you perhaps) think that the Gallente have serious problems. If you are a Gallente pilot and you feel this way, I will take you at your word. You probably fly them more than me and know their weaknesses and problems better than I do. Again, I take you at your word here, and support you in seeing these things corrected. But I wish you would extend this same courtesy to the folks who are saying these same things about the ships they are familiar with.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5910 - 2012-11-07 01:29:31 UTC
glad to see we've all moved on

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#5911 - 2012-11-07 03:36:24 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
glad to see we've all moved on


Yeah it is nice to see people bitching about who has the better ships now since there has not been an update or change to the topic in what 8 weeks or so, seems the Missile changes are going through even with the time people have spent discussing it. Way to listen CCP
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5912 - 2012-11-07 05:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Faora Zod wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
glad to see we've all moved on


Yeah it is nice to see people bitching about who has the better ships now since there has not been an update or change to the topic in what 8 weeks or so, seems the Missile changes are going through even with the time people have spent discussing it. Way to listen CCP


This is all because Drake fanatics like to discuss this in cycles. It all started with how Caldari pilots need OP weapon system to be competetive. And then someone mentioned how this will be done to help PL and after that discussion started all from start: "we need a OP weapon system to own everything". Because nobody has mentioned PL lately these fanatics started shouting how they need Drake, Tengu and Raven to be solo pwning machines and how all other Caldari ships suck because they are "too small" to solo bbq pwn anything or use weapon system designed by heretics.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5913 - 2012-11-07 06:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
Keko Khaan wrote:

Theres alot awesome gallente boats.. Let me name some of them for you..

Lachesis
Arazu
Proteus (small gang)
Oneiros
Ares
Taranis
Keres
Nemesis
Enyo
Ishkur
Phobos
Deimos (small gang)
Ishtar (pve)
Talos
Myrmidon (bait/solo triple rep)
Brutix (gank/small gang)
Hyperion (bait/triple rep)
Megathron (small gang/blaster)
Dominix (pve/pvp)
Thanatos
Nyx
Moros
Erebus


Theres alot awesome Caldari boats.. Let me name some of them for you..
Rook
Falcon (because of falcon)
Tengu
Basilisk
Kitsune
Manticore
Harpy
Hawk
Hookbill
Merlin
Griffin
Onyx
Cerberus (Long range small gang)
Naga
Drake
Vulture (those bonus' and tank are really quite good, even if the ship has paper DPS)
Ferox (ASB Ferox's are slow, but good brawlers)
Scorpion
Rokh
Wyvern


Funny thing that we allready talked about this list earlier in this thread. Anyways i think those are mostly good ships. Alltho few ships there i dont agree..

Rook - Useless combat recon (falcon and scorp does it better)
Ferox - Omg a ferox.. Run!!!
Cerberus - Can be ok but still kinda meh.. Missile sniper? Eh..
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5914 - 2012-11-07 06:58:35 UTC
MIrple wrote:


I to can list all the ships of a race and say they are good. If you look at fleets though most of the ships you listed are lacking. AF and frigs might be around but in fleet warfare how often do you see a Gall boat. I see from the 20 most used ships.

Kills
1 Drake 25800
2 Hurricane 18242
3 Tornado 11986
4 Rokh 9386
5 Rifter 8934
6 Naga 8765
7 Capsule 8014
8 Nyx 7209
9 Oracle 6689
10 Sabre 6511
11 Huginn 5768
12 Tengu 5560
13 Talos 5544
14 Thrasher 5527
15 Cynabal 5471
16 Abaddon 4578
17 Incursus 4569
18 Manticore 4232
19 Hound 4104
20 Loki 4101

We have 3 ships there but yes keep telling me that Gallente are great ships now cause they are used so often. Caldari have 5 Amarr have 2 Mimmy have 8 and then there is 1 pirate and pods. So when Caldari have 5 ships in the top 5 and gall have 3 how then is gall so far superior?


One question. When a new player joins eve, more often then not, are they not told to train a drake as it is a solid mission ship? Therefore would an intelligent alliance, knowing that more people are trained to fly drakes....think that a drake fleet would make sense as they can get larger numbers. Add that fact that the t2 heavy launchers can be trained much quicker than cross training a different weapon type, especially if they already have some missiles skills for a stealth bomber.

So with that in mind, would that not skew the numbers for many people that don't even enjoy flying caldari.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5915 - 2012-11-07 07:09:00 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
One question. When a new player joins eve, more often then not, are they not told to train a drake as it is a solid mission ship? Therefore would an intelligent alliance, knowing that more people are trained to fly drakes....think that a drake fleet would make sense as they can get larger numbers. Add that fact that the t2 heavy launchers can be trained much quicker than cross training a different weapon type, especially if they already have some missiles skills for a stealth bomber.

So with that in mind, would that not skew the numbers for many people that don't even enjoy flying caldari.


It's low SP friendly ship. Other tier 2 BCs are great for level 3s. The thing with Drake is currently its superior tank + range advantage over other tier 2 BCs. Why would you want to use for example HPL Harbinger when its range is inferior compared to Drake's range?

Currently Drake is extremely boring to use. I would pick any AF over Drake for PvE.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5916 - 2012-11-07 07:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
One question. When a new player joins eve, more often then not, are they not told to train a drake as it is a solid mission ship? Therefore would an intelligent alliance, knowing that more people are trained to fly drakes....think that a drake fleet would make sense as they can get larger numbers. Add that fact that the t2 heavy launchers can be trained much quicker than cross training a different weapon type, especially if they already have some missiles skills for a stealth bomber.

So with that in mind, would that not skew the numbers for many people that don't even enjoy flying caldari.


It's low SP friendly ship. Other tier 2 BCs are great for level 3s. The thing with Drake is currently its superior tank + range advantage over other tier 2 BCs. Why would you want to use for example HPL Harbinger when its range is inferior compared to Drake's range?

Currently Drake is extremely boring to use. I would pick any AF over Drake for PvE.


Agreed....trust me....I've ran 3's in a myrm, brutix and drake on one toon.....and prophecy and harbinger on this toon.....and it's sadly pathetic. The drake is the only ship I don't have to constantly warp out in. Bottom line is while it's much, MUCH quicker to train perfect armor tanking skills, it is inferior for solo pve. I even tested it with a billion isk fit drake and a billion isk fit harbinger....I could handle most lvl 4's in the drake....and pretty much nothing in the harby because there's no tank or their is no dps....and when I say no dps....I'm mean zilch because you have to sacrifice tracking and therefore don't hit anything. And now their main concern is to nerf the drake because it's "OP" and then take a slot away from my harbinger! yay! Anyone want to buy a harbinger? lol
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5917 - 2012-11-07 07:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Agreed....trust me....I've ran 3's in a myrm, brutix and drake on one toon.....and prophecy and harbinger on this toon.....and it's sadly pathetic. The drake is the only ship I don't have to constantly warp out in. Bottom line is while it's much, MUCH quicker to train perfect armor tanking skills, it is inferior for solo pve. I even tested it with a billion isk fit drake and a billion isk fit harbinger....I could handle most lvl 4's in the drake....and pretty much nothing in the harby because there's no tank or their is no dps....and when I say no dps....I'm mean zilch because you have to sacrifice tracking and therefore don't hit anything. And now their main concern is to nerf the drake because it's "OP" and then take a slot away from my harbinger! yay! Anyone want to buy a harbinger? lol


You are doing something wrong if you have to warp out in level 3s in Myrm or Harbinger. Tank or damage isn't a problem. Getting to range to apply that damage is a problem at least for Harbinger.

You need Hull Upgrades V for T2 armor hardeners. You don't need level 5 skills for T2 shield hardeners.

For example my Drake can run any BR/Sansha level 3 with only one invul running. Yes, that's BC5 Drake but that shouldn't matter.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5918 - 2012-11-07 08:16:04 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


You are doing something wrong if you have to warp out in level 3s in Myrm or Harbinger. Tank or damage isn't a problem. Getting to range to apply that damage is a problem at least for Harbinger.

You need Hull Upgrades V for T2 armor hardeners. You don't need level 5 skills for T2 shield hardeners.

For example my Drake can run any BR/Sansha level 3 with only one invul running. Yes, that's BC5 Drake but that shouldn't matter.


Not so much in the Myrm....but in the harby i have just from trying to balance damage and tracking versus tank. I can't stand seeing those white messages pop up.

Yes, you need hull upgrades to 5...but that and repair systems both to lvl 5 is an 18 day train, without remapping or implants....

now, granted a passive tank can be very effective in roughly 8 days, to use all tech II mods for active shield tanking, it would take you 24, not including the fact that you'd have an extra 2 days to be able to do both passive and active. Obviously I left out damage specific compensation skills as they just cancel each other out.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5919 - 2012-11-07 08:38:53 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Yes, you need hull upgrades to 5...but that and repair systems both to lvl 5 is an 18 day train, without remapping or implants....

now, granted a passive tank can be very effective in roughly 8 days, to use all tech II mods for active shield tanking, it would take you 24, not including the fact that you'd have an extra 2 days to be able to do both passive and active. Obviously I left out damage specific compensation skills as they just cancel each other out.


T2 active shield hardeners: Tactical shield manipulation level 4, rank 4 skill
T2 X-large shield booster: Shield operation level 5, rank 1 skill
T2 Large shield extender: Shield upgrades level 4, rank 2 skill

Without implants and int and mem at 17, you can't get close to 24 days.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5920 - 2012-11-07 09:27:04 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Dude, seriously, I don't want to debate this with you. I listed the Gallente ships that I thought were good -- as in I wouldn't hesitate to fly them myself. If you disagree with my opinion, cool. You don't have to fly them.

And frankly, I don't give a flying $#E% what null sec mega-blob FCs consider viable for their fleets. That's not how I play the game. I am a pirate. I don't have a dozens or hundreds of people as back up, and every possible fleet role filled in triplicate. Five or six people in my gang is a damn good night, and we are usually fighting outnumbered. We don't always win, but I think we do okay.

When I look at a ship I look at what that ONE ship can do. Can it get in there, get the kill, and get out. And I look at it as a single ship because when there are only a few of you on field, and fifteen of them, your ship better be able to handle it on its own. In my opinion there are many Gallente ships that fit the bill, and that offer plenty of advantages a pilot can exploit. And more, there are bloody few Gallente hulls that are complete crap -- something that cannot be said for the Caldari.

I understand that some folks (you perhaps) think that the Gallente have serious problems. If you are a Gallente pilot and you feel this way, I will take you at your word. You probably fly them more than me and know their weaknesses and problems better than I do. Again, I take you at your word here, and support you in seeing these things corrected. But I wish you would extend this same courtesy to the folks who are saying these same things about the ships they are familiar with.

That's it. Caldari just don't fit your playstyle sthe same way gallente are bad in blobfests. And yet, even though it's not missiles, since the hybrid buff, caldari have good options for solo brawling, and they became even better with ASB. Of course, it's still not minmatar nor gallente, but they shouldn't be underestimated.