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Beyond Oruze and Osobnyk; The Jovian Empires

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Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#121 - 2012-11-05 21:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
"He knows what he is and what he wants, what he has always wanted."

Bear

Who are you? What do you want?

Blink

Chasing the proverbial shadows....

Anyone have a good understanding of when the Amarr resumed space flight?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Borascus
#122 - 2012-11-05 22:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Based on the Amarr Timeline it would appear that spaceflight was resumed shortly before the building of the Stargate to Hedion.

About 2000 years ago, approximately 700 years after they take control of Athra/Amarr. Definately between 1990 and 2500 years ago.



In later Black Mountain chronicles it details how the Jovians manufactured the Book of Emptiness to counteract the Jovian Disease, which begs the question;

If the Jovians manufactured the Book of Emptiness (to counteract the Jovian Disease), and the book was found on Amarr 1500 years ago, how can the timeline look like this:

Quote from the Book of Emptiness Chronicle:

Quote:
On the planet of Athra some fifteen hundred years ago, right after the Moral Reforms had concluded and the Amarr Empire had begun its tentative steps towards further exploration and expansion, two men were walking through a desert in search of a sacred object whose recovery could, according to one of them, rock the foundations of the Empire.



AD 21290
The first star gate since the collapse of EVE is built between Amarr and Hedion

AD 21875
The Moral Reforms start. The status of the Emperor alters and the power of the Apostles is curbed

AD 21950
The Moral Reforms end [4]

AD 23180
First contact between the Gallenteans and the Amarrians, soon after the Amarrians come into contact with both the Caldari and the Jovians

AD 23193
The Jove make themselves known to the rest of the four empires


1500 years ago is approximate with AD 22000.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#123 - 2012-11-05 22:06:53 UTC
So, before the Moral Reforms.. Interesting.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#124 - 2012-11-05 22:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
From the Ardishapur Family page..

Quote:
the Empire constructed a stargate between Amarr and Hedion in 21290 AD (2060 years ago, or roughly 500 years before the Moral Reforms)

Same date on the timeline, so maybe a couple hundred years prior, roughly 21000 AD the Takmahl began looking to leave Amarr Prime...

About a thousand years prior to that, the Udorians show up and spur the True Amarr into the Reclaiming... The Ardishapurs, minor nobles on the Council, and named something else back then, press to claim the Udorians original homelands as their own Holdings... Which they succeed in. Oh, if we only knew that original surname...

In 16480, roughly, the Sefrim arrived on Athra...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Borascus
#125 - 2012-11-05 23:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Roga Dracor wrote:
From the Ardishapur Family page..

Quote:
the Empire constructed a stargate between Amarr and Hedion in 21290 AD (2060 years ago, or roughly 500 years before the Moral Reforms)

Same date on the timeline, so maybe a couple hundred years prior, roughly 21000 AD the Takmahl began looking to leave Amarr Prime...

About a thousand years prior to that, the Udorians show up and spur the True Amarr into the Reclaiming... The Ardishapurs, minor nobles on the Council, and named something else back then, press to claim the Udorians original homelands as their own Holdings... Which they succeed in. Oh, if we only knew that original surname...



??????

Jovian technology on Amarr before Jovians meet anyone. Did the Jovians forget too?
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#126 - 2012-11-06 01:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
The Sefrim arrived on Athra 10 years into the rule of Amash Akura, which was 16480, the Council of Apostles was founded somewhere within these ten years. I.E. Between 16470 and 16480 AD.. It was formed from the most senior members of the clergy, those warlords who had proven most loyal to him, and the most pious and courageous of his generals.

The sefrim gifted Amash-Akura with Ametat the Scepter and Avetat the Crown, two divine artifacts that blessed Amash-Akura with wisdom and vigor, keeping him eternally youthful and strong.

Any Book of Emptiness that was on Amarr is either an artifact left by the Sefrim, or it predates the colonization..

Quote:
On the planet of Athra some fifteen hundred years ago, right after the Moral Reforms had concluded and the Amarr Empire had begun its tentative steps towards further exploration and expansion, two men were walking through a desert in search of a sacred object whose recovery could, according to one of them, rock the foundations of the Empire.

Indeed, such a discovery would... It also reinforces my belief that the Sefrim are Jovians.. Or some faction of the Jovians, perhaps a different faction than spawned those we know as Jovians... Takmahl, anyone?

Amash Akura founded the Council of Apostles, which ruled the Amarr over 5,000 years before being dissolved in the Moral Reforms of 21875 AD. He also created the Holder class, which exists to this day.

Amash-Akura died in his sleep, roughly in the year 16600 AD..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Borascus
#127 - 2012-11-06 08:42:24 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
The Sefrim arrived on Athra 10 years into the rule of Amash Akura, which was 16480, the Council of Apostles was founded somewhere within these ten years. I.E. Between 16470 and 16480 AD.. It was formed from the most senior members of the clergy, those warlords who had proven most loyal to him, and the most pious and courageous of his generals.

The sefrim gifted Amash-Akura with Ametat the Scepter and Avetat the Crown, two divine artifacts that blessed Amash-Akura with wisdom and vigor, keeping him eternally youthful and strong.

Any Book of Emptiness that was on Amarr is either an artifact left by the Sefrim, or it predates the colonization..

Quote:
On the planet of Athra some fifteen hundred years ago, right after the Moral Reforms had concluded and the Amarr Empire had begun its tentative steps towards further exploration and expansion, two men were walking through a desert in search of a sacred object whose recovery could, according to one of them, rock the foundations of the Empire.

Indeed, such a discovery would... It also reinforces my belief that the Sefrim are Jovians.. Or some faction of the Jovians, perhaps a different faction than spawned those we know as Jovians... Takmahl, anyone?

Amash Akura founded the Council of Apostles, which ruled the Amarr over 5,000 years before being dissolved in the Moral Reforms of 21875 AD. He also created the Holder class, which exists to this day.

Amash-Akura died in his sleep, roughly in the year 16600 AD..


Quote:
No surviving manuscripts give any exact info about their function other than they allowed the user to ‘wield the power of God’ and ‘harvest the knowledge of creation’.


I nearly started looking at Amash-Akura's death with cynicism, its pretty much as soon as his opponent Molok the Deceiver passes on.
Quote:

21 And next day Amash-Akura had aged all his days and his hair was white and his skin wrinkled. But his spirit was high and his will resolute. God had charged him to take back his empire.
22 For five years Amash-Akura battled his enemies, wielding the Scepter and the Crown, and triumphed in the end. The day after Molok the Deceiver was brought before him in chains and sacrificed on the altar of God; the emperor died in his bedchamber, his task fulfilled.


Moreso as he ages rapidly, just like the repairman in Rust Creeps

Quote:
I barely recognized him at first; it was like he'd been shunted head-first into old age, his body matted, wrinkled and eaten up by time and whatever other forces worked on that poor man.


Body-battery?
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#128 - 2012-11-06 13:53:26 UTC
Nanites..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Borascus
#129 - 2012-11-06 14:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Those crazy nanites huh?

You know, the symbolism of sympatico in both cases also paints telepathy, to a limited extent, in a fictional situation. In Rust Creeps the repair man's requirements are: Something to work on, an assistant stood nearby. Amash-Akura needed: something to fight against, and a clear enemy.


If Molok were guiding as a deceiver leading Amash-Akura on his path, the revelation of a captured Molok would not satisfy the reclaiming God had charged Amash-Akura with, Molok's death only brought one really niche scene to an end. How this satisfied Amash-Akura sufficiently to allow his life to end baffles.


As for the nanites, are they the embodiment of the research into Astral Treatment? What specifically makes the use of nanites by Sansha's Nation a no-brainer whilst also depicting the Blood Raiders exsanguination methodology? If you could link two cells via an imposed artificial structure they would be inter-dependant symbiotes, not a parasite and host relationship.

In the same vein, during Nale's near death experience in part two of the story. The enemy Draea has a wraith real close:
Quote:
One of those shadows seemed more substantial than the rest, hovering motionlessly behind Draea while the others float back and forth, but he can't make out what or who it is.


Now in terms of similarity;

The First Chronicle in Black Mountain titled on this Earth contains the following passage:
Quote:
In a corner of her living room, sitting in her easy chair, was the well-dressed man from last night. He held the truncheon, caught in mid-air inches from his face, but otherwise he didn't appear to have moved. He was smiling.


Quote:
He held up a glass of water. "Drink it."


Atira / Draea is psychologically conditioned in Episode 3: The Room

Quote:
"Much as I appreciate your enthusiasm, you need to stop this nonsense. If you walk up to someone, if you distract them for a second and then manage to take them down, you kill them on the spot. That's what you do. Okay? If you absolutely have to leave a personal mark, you find something lying around and shove it into their eyesocket. What you do not do is let them get up and make a run for it before throwing a knife into their backs. Let's be professional about this. And stop crying."


Looks like one of the schools, Nale is Sisters of EVE trained, or both know how to avoid the process carried out by the Book of Emptiness.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#130 - 2012-11-06 15:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Ya, the thing is they use the same methods the Book uses to scramble brains, to test their ability to withstand it. The SoCT was able to reproduce the original, almost.. Only this version worked on non-Jovians. From Hyperconsciousness..

Quote:
This new Book, whose existence was kept a closely guarded secret, had the same basic abilities as the old unit but mainly affected non-Jovians, and of those, it couldn't even be made to work properly on the worst (or, in one regrettable mistake during an illicit test run by very frustrated researchers, the best) students of HyCon.

Sansha Kuvakei?

And the pieces seemed to be implied as general technology laying around.. Technology that is beyond most efforts to reconstruct, or reverse engineer. Even the Jovians of the Society had trouble. Who, then, were the caretakers of this technology that are mentioned? The Enheduanni? The Sleepers?

Quote:
It is, of course, entirely possible that the Book's disappearance was no accident. Cynics might claim that the Society was beginning to worry that its Hyperconsciousness agenda, and the careful manner in which it had educated and molded its wealthy and powerful non-Jovian students, might be seen as the starting moves in a new political game of strategy, and that the hunt for the Book was meant to serve only as a decoy. If so, it was an incredibly dangerous move, and likely made with the arrogance of superiority. It could very well be that the Society never expected that any other force in Eve might find out so quickly about the Book's existence and start its own hunt for the item.

The Society is, first, a religion that caters to a people who have an air of superiority.

Quote:
Jovian inspectors found that while the Society dutifully abstained from resuming its prior level of hard-science technological research, the kitz governors, along with Societal scholars, simply started looking into soft-sciences instead. They focused extensively on the humanities, in particular sociology, education, theology and psychology.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#131 - 2012-11-06 15:47:49 UTC
I approve of this thread.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#132 - 2012-11-06 16:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
I'm not sure I approve of you approving of this thread.. Blink

But, anyway, add Hona into this and we see four factions expressly looking for this reconditioned Book of Emptiness, SoE, SoCT, Nation and the Angel Cartel. Though, in truth, likely everyone who knows something is floating around is looking for that something.

If the original Book worked on Jovians, we see a likely course into the First Jovians Empire's subjugation of it's peoples. It was hidden away because it was a control method that stripped the Jovians of their will to resist their governments control, as they implemented their enforced genetic restructuring.. Another possibility for the Big Mistake of the Architects\Elders. Especially considering they dismantled it and hid it away, before finally giving it to SoCT to destroy.

It also hints that it may have given some Jovians the ability to transcend in some way...

Honestly, it sounds like something that would be relegated to the Jovian military to hold onto...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#133 - 2012-11-06 16:46:08 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
I'm not sure I approve of you approving of this thread.. Blink


Well, 90% of what you're speculating is probably bat**** crazy. But it's still a cool thread.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#134 - 2012-11-06 16:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Still, 10% is probably a good start..

Kudos to CCP for driving me batschist crazy...Blink

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#135 - 2012-11-06 18:46:32 UTC
I turn my back on this thread for a couple weeks and look what happens... Shocked

I have some reading to catch up on now...

Where I am.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#136 - 2012-11-06 20:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Your enumerations on SOTC have highlighted an important note that really should be heavily...

HEAVILY

looked into thoroughly.

At the End of the World chronicle series, the Blood Raider Omir directs the blood raider captain (a character who was initially recruited by the Chamberlain himself into the Blood raider circles) to an SOTC connection which is unnamed to us.


We have been trying to work in the Takhmal on our various trips throughout the ancient races' history, and continually overlook them since it's hard to fit them in the timeline with anything truly significant. More importantly... nothing ever describes why they ceased to exist.

However, the Takmahl founded themselves an empire shortly after Amarrians took to space to become an offshoot of Sani Sabik. And, as we have gone through the Jita 4-4 chronicle, not all Sani Sabik means that you are going to be a blood drinker. Laying down a foundation for the Sani Sabik deep into the history of EVE, before BRaiders.

To lay this into the timeline...
The Amarrians took to space 2060 years before YC 0 - or 2170 years ago or so. Give or take.

AD 21290
The Amarr build their first star gate, between Amarr and Hedion. This sparks a period of great expansion for the Empire


SOTC is founded in...

AD 23044
The Society of Conscious Thought is founded in the Jove Empire

Quote:
Apocryphon, Lost Passages

"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."



Quote:
"Imagine if the bars to your prison were all you had ever known.
Then one day, someone appears and unlocks the door.

If they have the power to do this, then are they really the liberator?

You never remembered who it was that closed you in.

- Ior Labron. [2]"



I propose that the SOTC is a Jovian Sani Sabik cult. It has over a thousand years to establish itself before the SOTC was formed. Through the interactions of the Takmahl empire's reach and other iterations of Sani Sabik upon New Eden - there is plenty of time for such an agenda to weave into the Jovian history. The agenda of Hyperconsciousness speaks of the Savant doctrine of Sani Sabik.

As well, their willingness to work with the Blood Raider Omir - speaks of unspoken connections that we find regularly all over the place in New Eden ~ Sisters of EVE to Serpentis, etc. And that is something we are so used to reading that we let the details slip by. We take it for granted. But, in this case, the imminent "blooding" that the Superweapon promises through Omir, immediately turns into an offering to the SOTC? I don't believe that is to be taken lightly.


As you said, Religion plays a strange role in New Eden. For a super advanced technological galaxy, you would imagine that some remnants of religion may remain, but for the most part 10s of thousands of years would erode most of what we know. But, repeatedly spirituality is called upon and in ways that are unclear but indicate that its role in EVE is more than just a socio-political element to dictate control.


In EVE, is there a God?

Where I am.
Borascus
#137 - 2012-11-06 20:27:58 UTC
Funky that the Blood Raiders in that chronicle were ordered to follow the SoE vessel to the hive, bit of a deep insight into SoE activity also.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#138 - 2012-11-06 20:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Borascus wrote:
Funky that the Blood Raiders in that chronicle were ordered to follow the SoE vessel to the hive, bit of a deep insight into SoE activity also.



It is somewhat explained that it's not unusual for Blood Raiders to chase SOE Ships. Also, the method by which the SOE scientist secured an exploration vessel to the Superweapon wasn't very subtle. He basically said something like "THERE IS SUMTHING REALLY IMPORTANT HERE!!!" Until someone bought into it. As it says in the chronicle, "things just fell into place". Suspiciously.


The Sefrim story could be many things. Aliens in disguise? A simple religious ruse? Myth?

If the artifacts are some predecessor to a book of emptiness or technological wonder given to the emperor, then the more important question isn't what were they, but why were they given to them? Are Avetat and Ametat the parallel of The Capsule and The Clone? And why the primitive Amarrians? Why the Caldari? Perhaps even more importantly than who.

p.s. Takmahl can't predate the Sefrim, they founded their empire after Amarrians mastered space flight.

Where I am.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#139 - 2012-11-07 01:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Welcome back, Bloodpetal.. Sidetracking a bit, I wanted to add some concepts to the discussion that help to understand Hyperconsciousness..

One is the Simulacra.. Which has bearing on the chronicles Jita 4-4 and Signs of the Faith. Also a look at the manga Ghost in the Shell shows it has some interesting parallels..

Hyperconsciousness is intimately related to the term hyperreal..

Whereas, the prison which Ior Labron, and the protagonist in Jita 4-4, is speaking of is Rationalization and Objectivity, which is explored in The Truth Serum..

All the testing shown by the SoE, the SoCT and Capsuleers in the chronicles are geared toward this aspect of "catching the anomolies" and not passing over errant bits of dialogue or prepositional environment detail. Just accepting it at face value and moving on, as Bloodpetal points out. That is part of what the Hyperconscious are trained to do. Study to exacting detail. Recreate First Order Simulacra of everything you experience in a Subjective experience.

It is something I don't think the Jove can any longer accomplish. And thus, their need for "cohorts"..

Borascus points out above, in relation to The Room, that Draea's success is measured by her irreverence for the Society's methodology and strict adherence to the rational methods of doing things.

Likewise in Inertial, Nale's statement of "Comes with Death" is almost foreign to the Sister's operatives, reflecting an almost Jovian detachment from emotion, likewise requiring human "cohorts" to effect Hyperconsciousness and the resistance to the effects of The Book of Emptiness..

Quote:
The monitor gave him a funny look, then said. "Tests are over. After you've cleaned up, ops people want to talk to you." The monitor looked at the screen showing Nale's vitals and said, "Now his adrenaline rises. You're a strange, strange man, Nale."

Different methods to the same end. And Hona is three?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#140 - 2012-11-07 03:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Once again, I assert that Sani Sabik is based in Shaktism, it raises up the Devi and lessens the Asuras of Zoroastrianism, which reverses the paradigm. They both have their IndoEuropean Vedic base. Amarr faith leaned toward male dominated, monistic god worship, while Sani Sabik leaned toward the female creative principle united into a dualistic approach to the godhead. They are diamerically opposed in interpretation. Yet share so many commonalities that the symbolism is overlapping.

This is the relic left by the Unified Catholic Church. This is most probably the ideology of the Udorians, which brought about the Reclaiming. It is the ideology of the Takmahl, who share the religious symbology of the Amarr, which they see as perverted and antithetical to the true faith.

Reading into the first few paragraphs of Silent Furies, we see that Maleatu Shakor and the Thukkers, maybe even the Matari as a whole, base their religion on Shaktism, or some form of Tantric Hinduism. The object he contemplates is a kapala.

Tantra also coherently ties in with most religions in New Eden.
Quote:
The historical significance of the Tantric method lies in the fact that it impacted every major Indian religion extant in the early medieval period (c. 500 - 1200 CE): thus the Hindu sects of Shaivism, Shaktism and Vaishnavism, as well as Buddhism and Jainism all developed a well-documented body of Tantric practices and related doctrines. Even Islam in India was influenced by Tantra. Tantric ideas and practices spread far outside of India, into Tibet, Nepal, China, Japan, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Indonesia. Today, it is Tibetan Buddhism and various forms of Hinduism that show the strongest Tantric influence, as well as the international postural yoga movement and most forms of American alternative spirituality grouped under the New Age rubric.


Shaktism centers around Kali and the Devi that she encompasses, the primordial personification of chaos that spawned time and Kala, the male principle of foundation and materialism. Inseperable as long as time persists.

Her personification and relation to blood and the kapala is evident in most statues of her.

Quote:
Kali's most common four armed iconographic image shows each hand carrying variously a sword, a trishul (trident), a severed head and a bowl or skull-cup (kapala) catching the blood of the severed head.


Hindu symbology is scattered amidst almost every society in New Eden. The Vel is the symbol of the Vherokior Tribe.

The Minmatar national logo is reflected in the Mankolam.

The Sivalinga is the reflected in the logo of the Intaki.

And this is by no means an exhaustive listing. Look for yourself and you will see a multitude that I have not listed. This hints that Sani Sabik is by no means a religious devotion restricted to Amarr society. It is inherent in the humanity who traversed the Eve gate... Reflected in the Jove as well, I would argue. And the Sister's of Eve. This religion is in the heritage of all New Eden, a reflection of the Unified Catholic Church.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.