Player Features and Ideas Discussion

OT, training a gunnery tree is indeed a *****. But frankly, those that have avoided and been able to avoid it have been far too lucky. And I do not think it is half a year, but I could be wrong in that (I didn't do it all at one shot). Regardless, one could decide to go with meta 4 tech I guns for quite a while. It's not impossible. I pvp'd and pve'd with them for a time, until I trained tech II. Only elite assholes will turn you away. This is a game. People just need to find the right buddies.

But turning to my purpose for this post, I want to address your use of the phrase "Caldari players." At one point it may have had more meaning. Back when the learning skills were in the game, you started with a pitance of attribute strength and total starting sp, and your rolled race affected your starting attributes. I started in that environment as the worst ass stink in the game Amarr (I liked the idea of lasers ). Even so, very early I recognized the importance of cross-training. Meanwhile 3 charsima Achura were flooding into the game and having a grand time getting into level 4 income making much faster with Drakes.

But enough about me , the important thing is that much of those mechanics are gone and have been for a while. Anyone that has so far been able to get away with training Caldari Drake and Tengu and HMs only has been enjoying an anomaly. One that will be closing even more as this process continues I bet. This game has always been about diversifying. Sure it's good to concentrate in something (master it) but to think that that one area of mastery will/should be rewarded in perpetuity is misguided. One will always need to have some diversification in one's sp portfolio to survive and find wide enjoyment in the game.

I've been saying this for years in almost every post I put on the S&M threads. Every character should have two races of ships trained. And in so doing by extension, every character is going to have to have two general weapon systems trained. And an even smarter stretegy is to have two races that tank differntly trained even though is necessitates more sp investment as well.

Being diversified gives a player options. Options for pve. Amarr laser boats love to kill bloods and sanshas and are good at it, but the poor missioner that only has lasers if he for whatever reason finds himself getting loaded with anagel or gurista missions. More importantly for pvp, especially with the rise of logi supported and even monoculture fleets, if tank only one way you run the risk of being left out if your gang or alliance is running the other tanking modality.

Being diversified also gives one perspective on the game. This usually makes one a better poster. If you can not just see the performance of another races ships and weapons in eft or pyfa but also have actually used them you come to "know" the benefits and drawbacks of both races and weapons systems in relation to each other. Then you are better at seeing actual imbalances. Returning to me, I have had Lili trained in tech II lasers and projectiles but also all tech II missiles at all sizes for subcaps (and tech II drones through heavys and sentrys as well). Lili's first tech II weapons system was HAMs (other than tech II light and medium drones). I have another character that has tech II hybrids and missiles also (Gallente and Caldari being a rather easier pair to cross-train). I've run pve in drakes, and pvp in drakes (and falcons ). I know very well how strong the ship and the weapon system is and it informs my support of the present HM nerf.

Lastly, being diversified is the best, only insurance one has in the game, from being stuck in the suck. Whether that suck is real or perceived. A strategy of only training one weapon system and race (not even to BS) and expecting to be able to do everything in game with that is a fail strategy (even if up til now it has been possible to do for HMs and Drake/Tengu). Such a strategy should not be reinforced, encouraged, or salvaged. And going back to your second sentence, no, Caladari is not in the doldrums right now. Minmatar may be in the best position, but it is Gallente that one could most say has "****" right now. Caldari has been the major benficiary so far in the ship rebalancing. That they may be losing the hands down favorites for BC and Cruiser sized ships is not relegating them behind Gallente. When CCP has gone through a whole pass on the ships and mods we shall see. And as Fozzie says, they will start all over again.

OT, training a gunnery tree is indeed a *****. But frankly, those that have avoided and been able to avoid it have been far too lucky. And I do not think it is half a year, but I could be wrong in that (I didn't do it all at one shot). Regardless, one could decide to go with meta 4 tech I guns for quite a while. It's not impossible. I pvp'd and pve'd with them for a time, until I trained tech II. Only elite assholes will turn you away. This is a game. People just need to find the right buddies.

But turning to my purpose for this post, I want to address your use of the phrase "Caldari players." At one point it may have had more meaning. Back when the learning skills were in the game, you started with a pitance of attribute strength and total starting sp, and your rolled race affected your starting attributes. I started in that environment as the worst ass stink in the game Amarr (I liked the idea of lasers ). Even so, very early I recognized the importance of cross-training. Meanwhile 3 charsima Achura were flooding into the game and having a grand time getting into level 4 income making much faster with Drakes.

But enough about me , the important thing is that much of those mechanics are gone and have been for a while. Anyone that has so far been able to get away with training Caldari Drake and Tengu and HMs only has been enjoying an anomaly. One that will be closing even more as this process continues I bet. This game has always been about diversifying. Sure it's good to concentrate in something (master it) but to think that that one area of mastery will/should be rewarded in perpetuity is misguided. One will always need to have some diversification in one's sp portfolio to survive and find wide enjoyment in the game.

I've been saying this for years in almost every post I put on the S&M threads. Every character should have two races of ships trained. And in so doing by extension, every character is going to have to have two general weapon systems trained. And an even smarter stretegy is to have two races that tank differntly trained even though is necessitates more sp investment as well.

Being diversified gives a player options. Options for pve. Amarr laser boats love to kill bloods and sanshas and are good at it, but the poor missioner that only has lasers if he for whatever reason finds himself getting loaded with anagel or gurista missions. More importantly for pvp, especially with the rise of logi supported and even monoculture fleets, if tank only one way you run the risk of being left out if your gang or alliance is running the other tanking modality.

Being diversified also gives one perspective on the game. This usually makes one a better poster. If you can not just see the performance of another races ships and weapons in eft or pyfa but also have actually used them you come to "know" the benefits and drawbacks of both races and weapons systems in relation to each other. Then you are better at seeing actual imbalances. Returning to me, I have had Lili trained in tech II lasers and projectiles but also all tech II missiles at all sizes for subcaps (and tech II drones through heavys and sentrys as well). Lili's first tech II weapons system was HAMs (other than tech II light and medium drones). I have another character that has tech II hybrids and missiles also (Gallente and Caldari being a rather easier pair to cross-train). I've run pve in drakes, and pvp in drakes (and falcons ). I know very well how strong the ship and the weapon system is and it informs my support of the present HM nerf.

Lastly, being diversified is the best, only insurance one has in the game, from being stuck in the suck. Whether that suck is real or perceived. A strategy of only training one weapon system and race (not even to BS) and expecting to be able to do everything in game with that is a fail strategy (even if up til now it has been possible to do for HMs and Drake/Tengu). Such a strategy should not be reinforced, encouraged, or salvaged. And going back to your second sentence, no, Caladari is not in the doldrums right now. Minmatar may be in the best position, but it is Gallente that one could most say has "****" right now. Caldari has been the major benficiary so far in the ship rebalancing. That they may be losing the hands down favorites for BC and Cruiser sized ships is not relegating them behind Gallente. When CCP has gone through a whole pass on the ships and mods we shall see. And as Fozzie says, they will start all over again.

--Jeez ! You mean, Caldari are bad at trying to be minmatar ?! Wow ! Amazing !

In terms of versatility and fleet effectiveness, yes.

Strongest shield, the two mightest weapon system at long range, and the best EWAR are the strength of the caldari.

Here some of your arguments :
If I want a BC that can stand in a blob against battleship, caldari have the drake.
Minmatar have nothing more than a welp hurricane.

If I want a robust and high dps BS for long range, caldari have the Rokh.
Minmatar have nothing but alpha.

If I want the BEST force multiplyer in game, Caldari have the Falcon.
Minmatar have nothing.

If I want an awesome shield frigate lineup, caldari is the goto race.
Minmatar are only second choices next to caldari for frigate fights.

If I want to snipe, nothing is better than a Cerberus, an Eagle or a Naga.
Minmatar only have alpha.

Want to brawl ? resist bonused ASB + range bonused blasters = win.

In fact, I tend to think that as soon the a target is scram/webed, then any more caldari ship is better than a minmatar ship. Caldari are masters of "stand and hit" doctrine, and they have a rather good agility. That's not the "hit and gtfo" of the minmatar, but it's up to you to use the weapon you have or those you prefer.

[quote]
-- Question though : why does every caldari defender here compare caldari ships to the so called "winmatar" ships ? Why don't you compare your caldari ships to amarr or gallente ships ?

Easy answer: I fly Minmatar. For the most part I just listed off the ships in my hangar.

to pigeonhole everyone into diversification

What you are advocating is to pigeonhole everyone into diversification as the only viable style of play. Which IMO goes counter to sandbox game design philosophy. A sandbox game like EVE should encourage both styles of play - diversification and deep specialization - with their respective unique rewards.

In a game centred around Darwinian adaptation in all levels, I wish to fix my character into only one mode of playing in order to achieve the goals of my chosen profession and not suffer a disadvantage to someone who is capable of adapting to his situation

I'm a new player, just subbed yesterday. So I have my doubts that I will be able to make a strong statement, that will sway 3 different races + some of my own. But I can say that in my opinion, I'm already feeling like there is very little love for the Caldari.

In personal experience I can say it doesn't make sense to hype missiles for a racial spec, and then only give us second lvl ships for it.
Example, Ferox (turrets) Drake (missiles) Naga (turrets). This jumps out at me as odd, since turrets are 2 of 3 ships, including our highest tier and first tier.

If 66% of our ships (give or take) are turret ships, then why should we bother with missiles. But wait, lets nerf that 33%.

When I ask about Caldari pvp, what is the one thing I get told. "Caldari are great for ECM" While I'm sure this is true, what is the other indisputable fact about fleet warfare, that even a noob as I has picked up. ECM/Jamming ships, are targeted first. So we are expected to die first, and be support characters in PVP.

So to sum up my 15 day experience.
1. Limited ships that have missiles as an option, with bias towards turrets.
2. Caldari are expected to be ECM players and get targeted/die first
3. Despite nerfs/imbalance, I still really like this game.
4. If I have to start training Minmitar ships to do dmg, I will.

Like I said, I am new so my opinion is different than people with extensive pvp experience, but I think it's important to add a new players view to the mix.

No one expects Caldari pilots to fly ECM -- and CCP is nerfing the crap out of ECM in this update anyway.

The only thing you, as a Caldari player, will be shoehorned into is the Drake. The Drake will be your main combat ship because it is your only combat ship. This might change down the road, but for now that's how it is. Post update, it will be the "kinder, gentler" pastel Drake. It won't suck, but if it ever was the king of the BC's (and I think that title belongs to the Cane myself) it certainly won't be after this. The Cane has always been Steak and Lobster; the Drake Oatmeal with brown sugar and cream. CCP is taking away the brown sugar and cream, replacing it with aspartame and skim milk, and telling you it's still just as good as steak. Sure it is CCP.

But that's what you will have.

In any case, nerf or not, I would advise ANY new player to drop missiles immediately and switch to gunnery -- and consider another race altogether. Not because of this nerf -- these changes are a net improvement for missile users -- but because of the return on investment. The other races have complete lineups of exceptional ships and weapons. The Caldari simply do not. Nor should you wait for CCP to fix them. That would be foolish. CCP isn't even bothering to fix all of the missiles in this missile update. How incredible is that? Caldari players have been waiting for years for this, and CCP couldn't even finish the job with missiles with all the Caldari nerfs they had planned.

CCP is nerfing the crap out of ECM in this update anyway.

[quote=Lili Lu][quote=OT Smithers]

tbh most people that cross train look at the pirate ships and caldari pirate ships are drone and missle (caldari/galente hybrid ships) bassed thus nerfing missle reduce its effectiveness. so you point here is cut out if you think of that i have played for nearly 2 years 1 and a half of that of actualy training (took 6 month breake) and even after that my missle skills aint maxed and i still aint able to train all tech 2 ship so there is another whole point that you brung up partialy negated.

simple put missle systems only work for itself it dosent have skill that transfer to other weapons so yes i think missles users should be rewarded in some way for specilising more so than others especialy when you think to max a particular gun system takes less sp investmant than maxing missles.