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Reasons why people wont PvP and why its a waste of time for most people
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-10-31 01:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Gogela wrote:

...and I'm getting tired of explaining that the changes I proposed there aren't changing the way you play. I'm tired of having to break everything down Barney style to slow-boaters. ...and I'm tired of people who can't see the big picture.

While not quantifying whether your idea's are good or bad, any statement of "remove 'x' from 'y'" inherently changes how people in whatever area 'y' represents can play the game. And so long as that area has unique properties which affect how people there use game content as compared to the same content in other locations the experiences cannot be replicated simply by moving. If they could then the issues you are trying to address wouldn't exist.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#62 - 2012-10-31 02:08:15 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Gogela wrote:
A few things need to happen, and some of it CCP, knowingly or not, is already working on. First, you need to have something worth defending. The modular POS's (and man if we get a jump drive on those at some point that would really be sweet) would be such a thing if they do it right and you really feel like it's 'uniquely yours'. That's a good target. People would defend it, and others attack it. Next, empire space has to stop being the place you go to get rich. Nullsec should be the richest space... it should be better than wormholes or anything. 50% tax on all empire market transactions. Run up taxes on highsec manufacturing too... hell get rid of highsec manufacturing and research slots. level 4 missions go to lowsec. FW is fine. Incursions in highsec should be stupid and worthless.


Uhhuh, and when this is done we can all stand up and wave goodbye to 3/4 of the game's population.

I'm getting so tired of trying to explain this to people. You can't FORCE someone into PvP if they don't want to do it. You also cannot ENTICE them, no matter how stupidly high the reward is, if they don't want to do it. Same goes for every other facet of the game. The fact that majority of EVE's population remains in high sec proves that the majority of the population does not want to PvP, under the current PvP system at least. If you want to get people to PvP, you have to change how PvP works.

If you are having trouble seeing this, look at mining. Some people will not mine, not even AFK mine. Regardless of how much money you could be making from it. Why? Because it's a stupidly boring mechanic. Eve is a GAME. It is supposed to be fun. But you can't force people, or entice them into doing something that's boring and stupid and really should only be done by bots or AFKers (or both). The only solution is to change the way mining works. It seems CCP is finally starting to realize it. About time too, it's been what, 9 and a half years? That's why they're talking about changing mining to be more interactive with ring mining. Until the same is done for the PvP, the majority of people will do their darnest best to avoid it like the plague. for whatever their individual reason for doing so might be (and there's tons of valid reasons).

...and I'm getting tired of explaining that the changes I proposed there aren't changing the way you play. I'm tired of having to break everything down Barney style to slow-boaters. ...and I'm tired of people who can't see the big picture.

1) 3/4 of the population? Where do you get that crap. Like everything else it's pulled from your a**. It's such an outlandish number I can't believe anyone, even dumb people, would buy into it.

2) What would change? Would there still be mining in highsec? You bet. Missions? Check... up to level 3 no problem. You can even have epic level 3 arcs, I don't care. Incursions? Exploration? Sure. You ever explore in highsec? It's boring as hell... but it's there for people learning the mechanic. No change. Would there be a market? Yah. A crappy one in relative terms, but it'd still be there. You just don't need null sec ISK in highsec. So keep playing your stupid, isolated carebear games. I don't care. It doesn't have to change. All I'm saying is put a f****** carrot out there in null and low for those who want to live a little.

3) Actually, yah you can entice people to go to low and null. ATM there's no enticement what-so-ever. If you aren't going out there expressly TO PvP there is no reason to go. You don't have any frame of reference to make your claim about enticement.

4) Your mining observation demonstrates to me how small your EvE universe is. There are different play styles that appeal to different players. Some people like to mine. Some do not. That is correct, and you are also correct in saying that CCP couldn't pay me enough to mine. I've been playing since 2006 and have NEVER mined. I never will. What you don't get is such a simple analogy has no place in this discussion at all. It's not about WHAT you do, it's WHERE you do it. That adds value to space. If an industrialist makes an extra 20% building stuff in low... or an extra 50% in null, guess what? Highsec indys will go en-mass to the place where they can take their lurker indy shop to the mass-industry level. Miners mine in highsec because the resources are pretty much the same everywhere, and the money in null isn't worth the risk to their ships. I totally understand that, and in their shos would make the same decision. If, however, they made enough in null to easily replace those ships... ships that are cheaper in null anyway because that's where the industry is, how many miners do you think will move to null? I would bet a lot. Now you start getting a bigger population and market in null, and the shipping and market magnates are going to start coming in. All those warm bodies draw the fleets and lone wolves as well, and now we have in null and low what only exists in empire today: A frackin' player ecosystem.

Stop thinking you represent 3/4 of EvE. I can tell you with absolute certainty that they aren't that dumb.


A simple population check of the star map will tell you exactly where most of the population spends most of the time logged in.

An indy corp being able to mine/manufacture 20% or even 50% more profit in low/null means jack all when you subtract the value of the lost ships. So much so that you are looking at more like a 20% or 50% decrease in over all profits.

L4's is also where most low/null sec pvp'ers farm their isk to fund their pvp which brings me to what I believe the number one reason why most people, in a game centered around making isk, don't bother to pvp. It's not profitable for most.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Natasha Liao
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-10-31 02:12:36 UTC
Gogela wrote:
*snip*
2) What would change? Would there still be mining in highsec? You bet. Missions? Check... up to level 3 no problem. You can even have epic level 3 arcs, I don't care. Incursions? Exploration? Sure. You ever explore in highsec? It's boring as hell... but it's there for people learning the mechanic. No change. Would there be a market? Yah. A crappy one in relative terms, but it'd still be there. You just don't need null sec ISK in highsec. So keep playing your stupid, isolated carebear games. I don't care. It doesn't have to change. All I'm saying is put a f****** carrot out there in null and low for those who want to live a little.
*snip*

Why stop at having any mining ( not that I'd actually want to mine... )? Why have any missions at all? Why have ANYTHING?? I'd be all for seeing how that particular 'carrot' works out for you. Sounds like a diasporian paradise you're planing. All you want to do is give folks 2 options: Get out of HS or GTFO. Your Way or The Highway. You don't really sound like you're having fun or getting any enjoyment out of playing Eve, so by God nobody else can either!!

Sorry... Your Way sounds like a pretty crappy game. Don't expect me to be forced into something and then expect to get my $15USD/month for it. Even Pokemon/Kung Fu Panda WoW sounds more fun than the game you think everyone should have.

You're using logic on an internet discussion forum. A rookie mistake, but one you'll soon learn to avoid. -Destiny Corrupted
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#64 - 2012-10-31 02:14:01 UTC
Throughout history people have always tried to push people into combat even when they know the people aren't ready.

It usually happens when they are losing.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#65 - 2012-10-31 02:27:32 UTC
Natasha Liao wrote:
Gogela wrote:
...and I'm getting tired of explaining that the changes I proposed there aren't changing the way you play. I'm tired of having to break everything down Barney style to slow-boaters. ...and I'm tired of people who can't see the big picture.

1) 3/4 of the population? Where do you get that crap. Like everything else it's pulled from your a**. It's such an outlandish number I can't believe anyone, even dumb people, would buy into it.

2) What would change? Would there still be mining in highsec? You bet. Missions? Check... up to level 3 no problem. You can even have epic level 3 arcs, I don't care. Incursions? Exploration? Sure. You ever explore in highsec? It's boring as hell... but it's there for people learning the mechanic. No change. Would there be a market? Yah. A crappy one in relative terms, but it'd still be there. You just don't need null sec ISK in highsec. So keep playing your stupid, isolated carebear games. I don't care. It doesn't have to change. All I'm saying is put a f****** carrot out there in null and low for those who want to live a little.

3) Actually, yah you can entice people to go to low and null. ATM there's no enticement what-so-ever. If you aren't going out there expressly TO PvP there is no reason to go. You don't have any frame of reference to make your claim about enticement.

4) Your mining observation demonstrates to me how small your EvE universe is. There are different play styles that appeal to different players. Some people like to mine. Some do not. That is correct, and you are also correct in saying that CCP couldn't pay me enough to mine. I've been playing since 2006 and have NEVER mined. I never will. What you don't get is such a simple analogy has no place in this discussion at all. It's not about WHAT you do, it's WHERE you do it. That adds value to space. If an industrialist makes an extra 20% building stuff in low... or an extra 50% in null, guess what? Highsec indys will go en-mass to the place where they can take their lurker indy shop to the mass-industry level. Miners mine in highsec because the resources are pretty much the same everywhere, and the money in null isn't worth the risk to their ships. I totally understand that, and in their shos would make the same decision. If, however, they made enough in null to easily replace those ships... ships that are cheaper in null anyway because that's where the industry is, how many miners do you think will move to null? I would bet a lot. Now you start getting a bigger population and market in null, and the shipping and market magnates are going to start coming in. All those warm bodies draw the fleets and lone wolves as well, and now we have in null and low what only exists in empire today: A frackin' player ecosystem.

Stop thinking you represent 3/4 of EvE. I can tell you with absolute certainty that they aren't that dumb.

Why stop at having any mining ( not that I'd actually want to mine... )? Why have any missions at all? Why have ANYTHING?? I'd be all for seeing how that particular 'carrot' works out for you. Sounds like a diasporian paradise you're planing. All you want to do is give folks 2 options: Get out of HS or GTFO. Your Way or The Highway. You don't really sound like you're having fun or getting any enjoyment out of playing Eve, so by God nobody else can either!!

Sorry... Your Way sounds like a pretty crappy game. Don't expect me to be forced into something and then expect to get my $15USD/month for it. Even Pokemon/Kung Fu Panda WoW sounds more fun than the game you think everyone should have.

Wow. Is that what you got from what I wrote? I didn't suggest getting rid of any mechanic, nor did I suggest that people even need to change their play style at all. I'm just saying re-factor the ISK rewards. But that's just like the bull**** responses that typify so-called high sec player responses. You don't post with your mains, instead cowering behind alts because you know people in your corp/alliance would think you a fool for what you write. A fair assessment. You don't read anything (or maybe it's comprehension that's the problem). Then you make up some BS argument which you can easily shoot down and attribute that drivel to the person you are trying to disprove, and then call it a win. I didn't say any of the crap you attributed to me. Yes, toolbag-guy above me, there are more people in empire. No s***. I'm just saying you don't represent the majority of them. There's such a disconnect between what I wrote and you and your other alt responses I really think I'm just getting trolled here. Read it again. Or don't. I don't care.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Devon Krah'tor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-10-31 02:46:30 UTC
I like to mine. Yes I said it. I also love PvP. I also like doing invention and manufacturing.
please buff lowsec and nullsec relative to risk
please buff lowsec and nullsec industry (FW is definately takeing steps in the right direction)

lets get everyone living out there. Even if you don't want to PvP, trust me. its actually exciting. You'll get used to it :) relax.

lets get enough money for carebears to hire PvPers to kill off the competition and threats.
the way its supposed to be

the way it is in real life.

People don't have to PvP, they just have to be able to support their style of play. Greater risks means greater rewards. Non-PvPers need the tools to make use of PvPers.

Why is it that hard core PvPers are forced to have some kind of PvE alt, when there are plenty of non combat toons with amazing amounts of money who need protection?

this would appear to be quite the opposite of Predatory PvP, and also is not pointless PvP.

something to think about.
Greater.Insight.Skill.Knowledge
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#67 - 2012-10-31 03:41:21 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
Disclaimers

1. When you undock you can be attacked and nobody is exempt from this statement. When people say this is a PvP orientated game this is what they mean

2. Spaceship PvP is the engine that drives this game and without it Eve would not function as almost all other professions are based on supplying it.


These are the main reasons that many people will not pew pew and its based around game mechanics and human nature


1. PvP has no purpose in this game. It has no quantative value beyond killing other people. Unless you are in a fixed territory in lowsec or nullsec then you have nothing to defend. And even then you can just move off to somewhere new. This is one of the biggest problems with PvP in EVE.

2. PvP is Predatory. This covers a huge amount of ground but its also a game mechanic problem.

i) People almost never fight unless they have the advantage. A PvPer always wants an overwhelming win before they will attempt a kill. This is overly true when looking for targets. You can fit a ship for PvE or PvP and they do not overlap. A PvP ship will almost always beat a PvE ship. This means that most of the time it is the PvPers choice to select their targets and ignore those they cannot win.

ii) A corp/Alliance that wardecs another chooses a weaker corp/alliance. Even the fabled Rooks and Kings are famously risk adverse. It may look as though they are engaging huge blobs but they have complete knowledge of game mechanics and will know before hand how much DPS they can absorb and if the blob cannot produce that they will engage.

iii) Its time consuming. I have never been on a roam that did not take several hours to form up and then several more hours to find a single target that was almost always a PvE ship. Most people don’t have the time to do this.

(iv) Its expensive. There are plenty of people who can tell you to get into frigates and go out and fight but in the majority of cases you will be massacred by bigger and more expensive ships. So you need larger ships to compete. Everyone has their story of a frigate fleet that killed a Battleship fleet but these are very much the exception than the rule.

(V) Learning the mechanics of PvP. You learn in the majority of cases by dying and when people die over and over again they soon see it as a waste of time. There are some great PvP corps but try getting into one. Rooks and Kings (my apologies for using them again) have a public channel for people to come in and hero worship them in the chance of getting in.


3. Killboards are a terrible construct. They encourage blobbing and predatory PvP. Nothing worse than two evenly match fleets not fighting or a corp unwilling to undock as it might negatively affect their killboard stats. This is made worse by PvP corps/alliances that base there decisions on whether to accept someone based on their killboard. And the killboard is a fallacy. 100% kills 0% losses. But have 50 other people on the kill with them. Or even more insidious someone who has 100% kills and 0 % losses and is a solo killer but every kill is a PvE fit ship.

4. Human nature. There a many many people who do not want to predatory PvP as they don’t want to ruin someone’s day. Ganking a PvE fit tengu who is ratting does nothing for either party apart from ruin their day. They would not mind fighting another PvP corp if they could overcome all the points above.

5. Weekend lowsec roamers. There are plenty of people trying to break into PvP by running weekend lowsec roams. This can be a massive waste of time for them as not only do they risk hours of nothing or massive blob but they can be farmed as I have done it myself. You fit a ship and wait for them to come through. They all destroy you and then you have kill rights on them for a month which you collect when they are missioning with their shiny deadspace battleship. Quickly they realise that lowsec is a waste of time or they have to spend a month not raising any isk.

6. Being in a corp with PvP types. I have met every kind of player you could image in this game and there are some I would cross the road to avoid and they are mainly Predatory PvP players.

Predatory and non predatory types.

1. Angry loner- a four year old player who killed a 3 month old and his POD. When I mentioned that his pod was most of his wealth he shouted “Good” through gritted teeth. These are rare thankfully.

2. Loudmouths who are constantly bleating about their own superiority and are constantly abusive to others. There are more of these.

Normal People

1. Lowsec Pirates- people who have chosen to roleplay pirates and live exclusively of their ill gotten gains. They are normally decent people who live on gates chatting on vent and killing cargo ships/PvE ships and fighting roamers or other pirates.

2. Highsec corps who live for battle and just want targets. Im a big fan of the Orphanage as they fit this mold. They just want targets to shoot and are not overly predatory. Ive seen them destroyed before in battles but they don’t care as they just enjoy fighting.

As you can see it’s a problem because to find decent people who are pvpers you have to live that life or have a second account that raises isk for PvP.

Summary/TLDR.

PvP serves no purpose in this game beyond its own end and mostly its just predatory PvP that has already been decided long before the first shot. Its expensive and time consuming and is not something that people need to do to enjoy this game. Until this changes people will not engage in this aspect of the game.




TLDR do something else.



Your valuable comments please


Ppl not pvp coz falcon !! And em drones !!!
Natasha Liao
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-10-31 03:50:57 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Natasha Liao wrote:
Why stop at having any mining ( not that I'd actually want to mine... )? Why have any missions at all? Why have ANYTHING?? I'd be all for seeing how that particular 'carrot' works out for you. Sounds like a diasporian paradise you're planing. All you want to do is give folks 2 options: Get out of HS or GTFO. Your Way or The Highway. You don't really sound like you're having fun or getting any enjoyment out of playing Eve, so by God nobody else can either!!

Sorry... Your Way sounds like a pretty crappy game. Don't expect me to be forced into something and then expect to get my $15USD/month for it. Even Pokemon/Kung Fu Panda WoW sounds more fun than the game you think everyone should have.

Wow. Is that what you got from what I wrote? I didn't suggest getting rid of any mechanic, nor did I suggest that people even need to change their play style at all. I'm just saying re-factor the ISK rewards. But that's just like the bull**** responses that typify so-called high sec player responses. You don't post with your mains, instead cowering behind alts because you know people in your corp/alliance would think you a fool for what you write. A fair assessment. You don't read anything (or maybe it's comprehension that's the problem). Then you make up some BS argument which you can easily shoot down and attribute that drivel to the person you are trying to disprove, and then call it a win. I didn't say any of the crap you attributed to me. Yes, toolbag-guy above me, there are more people in empire. No s***. I'm just saying you don't represent the majority of them. There's such a disconnect between what I wrote and you and your other alt responses I really think I'm just getting trolled here. Read it again. Or don't. I don't care.

Maybe you should take your own advice about reading things. 1st paragraph -> I took your trimming down of HS activities to a ridiculous extreme. Guess you missed that part. You call your changes a 'carrot'. I call them a club. You think they'll make me want to play the game that much more. I disagree. You think they'll make my pack all my stuff and move to Low/Null Sec. Don't be too hasty calling the moving freighter. 2nd paragraph -> I gave you my *opinion* of what I thought of 'your game' and what I would do when it comes to pass.

As for Main/Alt -> whatever dude. Get over it. Whether this is a 'Main' or an 'Alt' somehow makes your side of a discussion valid and mine not? As for whether people in RvB approve or disprove, agree or disagree with what I have to say doesn't matter. And sorry to disappoint you, but this is the only character I forum post on. So I guess there's at least *2* people who don't think highly of your plan.

And as for my 'so-called high sec player responses' ( if all else fails, go w/stereotypes and insults, amirite? ): if low and null are so barren and so horrible -> get them changed. Changing ( IE: nerfing ) HS isn't going to get people out to those areas. Instead of making HS suck - take your carrot, go out to low/null and find a place to plant it. Give CCP suggestions on how to make those areas more fun/productive/suck less. As a 'so-called high sec player' I'm all for the folks out there having fun and wanting to be there. Let CCP make those areas more desirable. But I kinda doubt nerfing HS to make it suck more is going to get your desired results.

You're using logic on an internet discussion forum. A rookie mistake, but one you'll soon learn to avoid. -Destiny Corrupted
Herr Hammer Draken
#69 - 2012-10-31 07:10:23 UTC
Gogela wrote:


4) Your mining observation demonstrates to me how small your EvE universe is. There are different play styles that appeal to different players. Some people like to mine. Some do not. That is correct, and you are also correct in saying that CCP couldn't pay me enough to mine. I've been playing since 2006 and have NEVER mined. I never will. What you don't get is such a simple analogy has no place in this discussion at all. It's not about WHAT you do, it's WHERE you do it. That adds value to space. If an industrialist makes an extra 20% building stuff in low... or an extra 50% in null, guess what? Highsec indys will go en-mass to the place where they can take their lurker indy shop to the mass-industry level. Miners mine in highsec because the resources are pretty much the same everywhere, and the money in null isn't worth the risk to their ships. I totally understand that, and in their shos would make the same decision. If, however, they made enough in null to easily replace those ships... ships that are cheaper in null anyway because that's where the industry is, how many miners do you think will move to null? I would bet a lot. Now you start getting a bigger population and market in null, and the shipping and market magnates are going to start coming in. All those warm bodies draw the fleets and lone wolves as well, and now we have in null and low what only exists in empire today: A frackin' player ecosystem.

Stop thinking you represent 3/4 of EvE. I can tell you with absolute certainty that they aren't that dumb.


Thats right we are not that dumb.

An extra 50% profit would not get me to move to null for industry. Thats just dumb. And you could never garrantee that would happen anyway.
A bigger market that I could supply in relative safety with an easier supply line is what would get me to move. But that is not going to happen. It is not themattic to null sec.

In high sec I can sell to everyone even null players and pirates. In null I am limited to only one corp a much smaller market.
This is just the nature of null sec. Nothing can be done to fix that as it would be detrimental to game play itself in null. When you have the equivelent of Jita in Null then I will bite. Also any trader can drop off goods in null at Jita prices so how can I compete with that unless you block all trader traffic.

I am not interested in playing multiple accounts either. That is not my thing. It would become a job and not fun to run multiple characters. I am not telling you how to play eve. I am telling you how I play eve. Please do not tell me how to play eve either.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Sandslinger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-11-05 20:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandslinger
Janet Patton wrote:
Great post.

I would like to get into PvP in EVE but just do not find it appealing to prey on other players who do not want to participate. Which seems to be what most of PvP is in this game.

When I feel the need to kill other people. I play something other then EVE, where everyone is willing to fight back.


This is so silly.

Eve Is a game about loss and gain. loosing matters you tell me which other games you play where the loss comes anywhere near to what a loss is in EvE. And then tell me that, everyone in that game is willing to charge headlong into every fight.


If someone is willing to fight you in Eve it's generally for one of two reasons.

They know they can win or they think they can win. Most everyone is trying to make their opponent believe nr 2.

Like the Exhale fight Casirio linked, We do sometimes just go for things we know is most likely to be suicide just on the off chance that we might pull it off.

Actually we tend to do that a lot mostly because even if it gives is heavy losses at times then once in a while we get that perfect fight where we win outnumbered or win where we shouldn't have and by damn the memory of those stick with you forever in EvE. The rest is just a blurr.

Some people pvp just to get a ratio on a killboard and will work 100% to never ever take a risk always ensuring they outmatch their opponents completely. this type of pvp I personally find to get really booring after a while and also it tends to make entities into one trick ponies.

Hell for a new player pvp can be as simple as taking a frig around until they find someone who want's to fight that frig. Pvp on all terms is all over the place the sad truth is most players are so used to getting junk handed to them on a plate from every other facet of the media industry that when a game actually requires you to make a effort yourself the vast majority are incapable.

And no amount of forcing those types of players will make them pvp, hence they are just food for the rest.
Sandslinger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-11-05 22:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandslinger
Addendum :

As to answering on the motivation factor

Again it comes down to initiative. "Most" people have the drive to better themselves. Isn't that what games are all about.

For a lot of people the ones that I would say "gets" eve the way CCP intended the game to be. Bettering themselves means creating or being part of creating a combat force that forces it's way into 0,0/LS/Wh and stakes it's claim.

The respect and honor gained is all the motivation a player ever needs.

Going back to the theme of people simply being incabable of taking initiative and being used to being handed everything on a platter by the media industry. What actually happens is the majority of eve players never leave high sec for fear of loosing their shinies in a game that doesn't simply hand you back your stuff at a respawn point.

And instead spend their eve life building up ever larger stocks of isk/shiny hangars or whatever. Not even touching on the market/industry pvp aspect of the game just the grind. For them "bettering" themselves in the game is completing a collection or buildig the ultimate isk machine ship.
These players come burn out very quickly and leave the game quickly. CCP actually released stats on this some years ago, people who don't engage in pvp tend to stay for only 3 months i think the stats said

Kind of ironic or perhaps just obvious as the PVE in eve is the most atrociously boring of any MMO while the PVP truly is the most exhilarating.

Again it all comes down to human nature. Eve is here to reflect human nature you can't stop blobbing because it's just human nature. You can't force people to risk their ships for pvp when those players are completely risk averse by nature.

All that said I would really like more ways for smaller roaming gangs to harass enemy space. The best idea i ever saw was that moon mining would instead be kind of like TCU's where a small gang should be able to attack the structure to start a timer and if they could hold it for a set amount of time (maybe 30 minutes) then they would be able to loot the moon goo contents of the last 24hours for that system.

Thus forcing alliances to keep constant vigil of their own space in order to keep their goodstuffs. As it is it is way too easy for alliances to hold 3 regions of space with the moon goo, and never ever have to do anything to prevent smaller enemy incursions.

Would open the arena for alliances to hire smaller merc alliances to soften up enemy space by draining their wallets.

Sorry for going off topic I just hate non-constructive circle jerk arguments devoid of any solution orientated brainstorming =)
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-11-05 22:31:09 UTC
Sandslinger wrote:
Addendum :

As to answering on the motivation factor

Again it comes down to initiative. "Most" people have the drive to better themselves. Isn't that what games are all about.

For a lot of people the ones that I would say "gets" eve the way CCP intended the game to be. Bettering themselves means creating or being part of creating a combat force that forces it's way into 0,0/LS/Wh and stakes it's claim.

The respect and honor gained is all the motivation a player ever needs.

Going back to the theme of people simply being incabable of taking initiative and being used to being handed everything on a platter by the media industry. What actually happens is the majority of eve players never leave high sec for fear of loosing their shinies in a game that doesn't simply hand you back your stuff at a respawn point.

And instead spend their eve life building up ever larger stocks of isk/shiny hangars or whatever. Not even touching on the market/industry pvp aspect of the game just the grind.

Kind of ironic in a sense as the PVE in eve is the most atrociously boring of any MMO while the PVP truly is the most exhilarating.

Again it all comes down to human nature. Eve is here to reflect human nature you can't stop blobbing because it's just human nature. You can't force people to risk their ships for pvp when those players are completely risk averse by nature.

All that said I would really like more ways for smaller roaming gangs to harass enemy space. The best idea i ever saw was that moon mining would instead be kind of like TCU's where a small gang should be able to attack the structure to start a timer and if they could hold it for a set amount of time (maybe 30 minutes) then they would be able to loot the moon goo contents of the last 24hours for that system.

Thus forcing alliances to keep constant vigil of their own space in order to keep their goodstuffs. As it is it is way too easy for alliances to hold 3 regions of space with the moon goo, and never ever have to do anything to prevent smaller enemy incursions.

Would open the arena for alliances to hire smaller merc alliances to soften up enemy space by draining their wallets.

Sorry for going off topic I just hate non-constructive circle jerk arguments devoid of any solution orientated brainstorming =)



I like this and i and a few other people have mentioned raidable moon mining arrays before. It would make a brand new career for sure and make nullsec alliances patrol their own borders
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Smiknight
Smiknight Corporation
#73 - 2012-11-05 23:22:47 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
3. Killboards are a terrible construct.


I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly...the current state of the killboards do not encourage quality PvP, merely quantity PvP. I put half the blame for the demise of solo PvP on the KBs alone, and have often stated that killmails should only be recieved either by the person that lands the killing blow, or alternatively, the person who does the most damage. This makes sense to me, and would also promote the risk v reward mindset of the game and hopefully would bring back the richly rewarding niche of solo PvP again. 
A reward devoid of risk is no reward at all, but is instead a handout.
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#74 - 2012-11-05 23:43:51 UTC
Smiknight wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
3. Killboards are a terrible construct.


I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly...the current state of the killboards do not encourage quality PvP, merely quantity PvP. I put half the blame for the demise of solo PvP on the KBs alone, and have often stated that killmails should only be recieved either by the person that lands the killing blow, or alternatively, the person who does the most damage. This makes sense to me, and would also promote the risk v reward mindset of the game and hopefully would bring back the richly rewarding niche of solo PvP again.


Killmails ARE only received by the pilot who landed the killing blow. It was the people who first parsed the KMs and then the API data who made a mess of it. I probably incorrectly blame Battleclinic as they are the first KB I was aware of.

Every day I'm wafflin!
Dave stark
#75 - 2012-11-05 23:47:29 UTC
got half way through the OP and realised every reason people don't seem to pvp is because they're not stupid enoug to start shooting at everything that lands on grid.

so basically nobody pvps because people actually think before they act. i fail to see how this is an issue.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-11-06 17:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
Geligdio Khan wrote:

2) The poverty of PVP exists because such a large proportion of the players live in High Sec, that's why roams are often devoid of targets, all the juicy industrials you want to shoot are merrily mining and trading in High Sec never to leave.

Of course new players should be protected from the harsh realities of the game but a High Sec adjustment would make PVP much more enjoyable and help the industrialists and make the game much more of an integrated, dynamic environment.

This, IMO, is the cause of pretty much all your points.


So, we nerf high sec. The carebears drop, and the PVPers cancel their second accounts that they use to make ISK to replace the ships they lose PVPing.

Instead of 30K people logged in, 20K of them in high-sec, now there are 10K players logged in.....

Explain to me how this ends the drought of PVP.

Hint:
People come in two types.: Want to PVP. Do not want to PVP.
People that want to PVP, already PVP.
People that do not want to PVP will not PVP regardless of what changes are made to the game. Attempts to force them to PVP will simply result in them leaving the game.

Sure, you could jack up the rewards of low sec ratting or mining to the point that the risk/reward would bring out people in cheap mining barges or PVE fits... and they'd dock up the instant you hit local. Oh, so remove local. Well, then risk/reward would push them back to high sec, or out of the game.



Any attempt to make PVP profitable will invite exploit. Heck, making it "not very expensive" via insurance had people self-destructing all over the place.
Grapez
Moviintti
#77 - 2012-11-06 17:44:50 UTC
PvP stats should decide nullsec sovereignty, not anchorable structures. Then, PvP would mean something.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-11-06 17:57:52 UTC
In regards to the OP.

I see no way to make people want to win PVP, not care if they lose PVP, not just go around out-blobbing each other, but also not setting up arranged fights (RvB style), while encouraging PVP but doing so in a way that is not open to exploit., etc.


A few changes I like:
1) No sec hits or kill rights for low sec PVP.
2) New cyno for jump freighter. Jump freighter in .4 down. Cov ops and regular cap ship cyno only in .2 down. (remove risk of hot drop for .3, .4.).


As for creating PVP that people want to win, but don't care as much about losing....

Hmmmmm?

Low sec "capture the flag"? Everyone in a constellation(region?) gets informed of an anomaly that will spawn at a future time.... say... 1 hour. Global bookmark to dead space At some random point, within an hour after that, a drop will happen. Fight it out for control of the PLEX. Whatever group is in control at the random end time gets the drop.

No cloaking in the plex, so no last second uncloaking and scooping the drop.

Could have different sized plexes that only allow in certain ship types. Frig fights, cruiser fights, BS fights... maybe even capital.

What should the reward be? Named items BPCs? And then remove all loot from rat drops once and for all... Or have rats drop damaged "named" items that can be "researched" into named items BPCs also... wait, I've digressed from getting more people to PVP into fixing manufacturing.



Yes, yes... this is a lot like incursions except: 1) it doesn't effect people in the system that are not interested in participating. 2) Could be done by small groups if no other, larger groups show up. Is PVP focused rather than PVE focused.


Hmmmm... maybe even have these plexes spawn in high sec, and no high sec rules on PVP inside the plex. The plex would be a little bit of null sec in high sec to give the carebear corps a small chance at PVP without committing to low sec piracy or a null sec move to get it, and not the war-dec type PVP that effects all of high sec and keeps them docked up in station for the duration of the war..




Meaningful PVP (ship loss if you lose, reward if you win), that you want to win (the drop) but (with insurance on lost ships) is not too painful to lose, not just a pre-arranged arena, not ganking PVEers....

hmmm... now how to stop it from being a blob fest? The value of the drop is dependent on the number of ships in the plex when the drop happens? Meta 4 BPC for a few ships, meta 3 for more ships, down to meta 1 for blob-o-matic. Or, I guess you could make the meta level be based on the number of ships that die in the plex. Blob too much, no one comes and tries to take the plex from you, no losses... lame BPC. I guess that opens a hole to exploit where the corps bing in alts to



Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-11-06 17:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
I feel left out.


edit: oh and ... PvP is not a shortage for combat.

You all are noobs, cowards or idiots.

gtfo.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2012-11-06 18:01:09 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
Smiknight wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
3. Killboards are a terrible construct.


I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly...the current state of the killboards do not encourage quality PvP, merely quantity PvP. I put half the blame for the demise of solo PvP on the KBs alone, and have often stated that killmails should only be recieved either by the person that lands the killing blow, or alternatively, the person who does the most damage. This makes sense to me, and would also promote the risk v reward mindset of the game and hopefully would bring back the richly rewarding niche of solo PvP again.


Killmails ARE only received by the pilot who landed the killing blow. It was the people who first parsed the KMs and then the API data who made a mess of it. I probably incorrectly blame Battleclinic as they are the first KB I was aware of.



Corps get the kill mail too. So CEOs can register their API with the KB and have the KB software auto pull the kills/losses for all corp members... as I understand the functionality.