Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I do believe the T1 logi cruiser changes are a bit TOO much. OK you can leave the range bonus at 1000% to have T1/T2 operate at same distance, but then I think you need to remove the Rep AMMOUNT bonus it will get. If you don't then there will not be a sufficient gap in performance to warrant risking a 200mil isk ship if there isn't sufficient reward for doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new T1's, I could keep another Exequror alive on Duality whilst he tanked 1100DPS focussed on him (he only had 20k ehp). This shouldn't happen with T1's, that should be the preserve of T2 specialised logi.

I think some folk complaining about these ships being 'overpowered' are missing several very crucial points:

(1) All numbers being thrown about here assume max skills. That means Racial Cruiser V, a 21-day skill. Most folk just getting into the logistics role will not have that skill trained, likely for a very long time. So the real repping output of the tech-1 support cruisers will be lower than the theoretical maximum for most users. But tech-2 logistics cruisers always rep at their maximum potential level, give or take 5% depending on whether the pilot has Remote Repair Systems V or Shield Emissions Systems V.

(2) The tech-1 support cruisers are very fragile. They have only tech-1 resistances, and consequently have barely half the EHP and get only half the benefit of inbound reps. If they become any more fragile, they'll be so easy to destroy that they will not be viable in any real fleet.

(3) The whole point is that these ships be viable in real fleets. That means they have to be somewhat close to their tech-2 counterparts. Because we want new players to have a useful role in PvP fleets other than as fast tackle or scout for the first six months of their existence. Perhaps the self-proclaimed 'bitter vets' have forgotten just how bloody long it takes to skill up for all the nice tech-2 ships we now take for granted. A fleet of Zealots backed by Guardians will still demolish a larger fleet of Omens backed by Augurors, so have no fear -- the forces of the bitter-vets will still prevail.

(4) In EVE, capability was never supposed to scale with price. This is why a pimped Marauder is not ten times better than a battleship for missions, even if it costs ten times more.

(5) As far as cost: if you're worried about cost when flying a Logistics ship, you should not be flying a Logistics ship. Your fleet-mates did not appreciate it when you gimped your fit and reduced your repping power by fitting 'Arup' instead of 'Solace' reppers. They will not appreciate it when you get blown off the field because you're flying a fragile T1 cruiser in a fleet of AHACs or billion-ISK Tengus.

(6) The AB large-repper Scythe that outreps a Scimitar, or the AB large-repper Osprey that matches a Basilisk, are nice in theory. They still have crap tank relative to Tech-2 logistics, and crap speed. So they can't establish or maintain range, and they can't tank nearly as much damage. If your fleet cannot nuke an Osprey, it has bigger issues to worry about than that Osprey.

So on the whole, the sky is not falling, and Logistics V has not become worthless. And even if it will become useless, it's been a good run. Full disclosure: This character has Logistics V, all remote support skills at V, and has nine or so Logistics hulls sitting around ready for use.

Why not just change the range bonus to only affect Medium remote reps. Pretty much every problem solved.

It already doesn't have enough powergrid or CPU to fit large reps, and it might as well get a bonus to small reps if a pilot chooses to use them

I like the changes listed here for the most part, and I'm totally psyched that t1 logi is finally getting a rebalance! I'm a long time advocate of allowing tech 1 ships to perform all roles, more than anything because it lets me fly within my budget. Also, when you fly with a smallish gang, then you have a high tendency to lose ships, and so bringing expensive stuff just isn't economical. It gets boring when the only effective ships you can bring are a rifter, merlin, hurricane, or drake.

That being said, I think that the augoror and osprey do not need the cap transfer range bonus. They should be able to reach the repairs to all fleet members, yes, but the new pilots can learn some essential maneuvering when they have to learn to stay close to their cap transfer buddy. Also, it just adds to the advantages of flying the tech 2 without reducing the viability of the tech 1 significantly.

Lastly, I'd like to see the scythe get its tracking link bonus back, and scrap the logi drone bonus. The exequror already gets a logi bonus to both types of logi drone.

Here's an idea: maybe the exequror can double as both a shield and armor repair ship, with a cap recharge bonus along with the drone bonus. Then you can fit a flight of the drones that match your highslot reps, with some backup drones to fill the rest of the bay. Then the scythe could do tracking links, remote sensor boosters, and remote ECCM. After all, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. If it had a lot of mid slots and a small sig radius, with its HP put mostly toward armor, it should work pretty well.

This could go well with something I've been thinking about. I've noticed pretty much every ship has exactly two skill bonuses. There are plenty of cases, however, when a third could be added without making the ship in any way overpowered. For instance, the Exequror could have both a remote armor repair and a remote hull repair bonus, along with the capacitor bonus. You could then give it its cargo bonus back. That would be 5 bonuses, and only 2 would be getting used at any point in time. It would simply increase the ship's flexibility.

Another example would be to grant the typhoon a third non-weapon bonus in addition to its missile and turret bonus. Since any single weapon installed on it can only be a missile or a turret, and not both at the same time, each high slot can never benefit from more than one of its bonuses at once. Also, since it always is forced to have a mix of the two (only 5 turret and launcher hardpoints), that drawback makes up for the slight advantage of being able to take advantage of either turrets or missiles.

Lastly, you could give the thrasher and cormorant a missile bonus for their one missile slot (based on the old destroyers). If that makes the thrasher overpowered, it's probably because it has way more powergrid than is needed to fit 7 autocannons, and not because it has higher damage output than other destroyers (it'd have the least).

you all have to remmember these ships have been balanced t2 counterparts havnt

It's already restricted to them, just because the large modules cost so much more powergrid and CPU. These ships could fit one or two large logi modules, but you can't make a full fit with them unless your rig and low slots are pretty much just powergrid and CPU enhancers, and even then, you won't have the capacitor needed to run them properly.

It wouldn't be a good idea to take away the capacitor transfer bonus from the osprey, as it is intrinsic to the way that ship works. It creates "free" capacitor by transferring to another osprey or basilisk and paying less than the other ship receives, and the other ship sends capacitor back. This way, they create a "cap chain" that causes them both to gain capacitor quickly. The Augoror and Guardian work the same way. I'm not so familiar with Oneiros and Scimitar logistics, but they seem to be solo logi vessels. They are supposed to be fit to generate their own capacitor, and they have more mid and low slots to allow them to do this, while having fewer high slots, thus there isn't enough room for them to cap chain.

But I like the idea of adding more fleet boosting options. Perhaps even just put them on the Exequror and Scythe. Then those ships could be given more mid slots to either put cap rechargers on or put on the fleet member booster modules. Perhaps both ships could have a role bonus for all 3, while only getting a skill bonus to one of the three. Remote ECCM doesn't really need a skill bonus, but a range role bonus would be great.

Yes, as CCP themselves have stated in the past, tech 1 ships aren't only supposed to be weaker, they're also supposed to be more general and flexible. It would be nice to see a lot more options on the t1 versions than on the t2 versions.

Maybe all by themselves, but not with any decent tank. Even the large atonement ward projector requires 112tf CPU, so 3 of them costs 336. That leaves just 176.5 to fit out the rest of the ship. Say you fit 2 powergrid rigs, a cpu rig, a large shield extender, 4 shield hardeners, a damage control, and 2 capacitor power relays--you would have a mediocre tank except that you wouldn't have an afterburner. And your ship's capacitor regen would only be able to handle one of the shield transfers, and only if your hardeners were off. I don't see how that's particularly exciting, though it may be a viable fit in some cases.

And similarly with the 2 large armor reppers on the Exequror, that's only if you choose not to fit a 1600mm armor plate. And not fitting that armor plate is pretty much asking to be alpha'ed. You could fit an 800mm plate but you'd still be pretty vulnerable. Similarly, an osprey with only one large shield extender would be pretty vulnerable. So no, the large reps don't fit under normal circumstances and most people wouldn't be fitting them. There's no reason to take away the range bonus from the large reps--it's better to allow players the flexibility to test out many fits and find unique strategies.

Ship doesn't need any nerf and T2 versions are not buff yet.
Then all you need is more dudes in Atrons, Rifters, Condors,Slicers and yell at them "get'em nao !!!"

Of course some players are already theory crafting stuff etc but remember that final SIS whatever server version is probably not the same that will be implemented on TQ.
I'll rejoin another poster above by saying those low skill players will not bring the effectiveness of T2 logistic skilled pilots even at current state of T2 logis.