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cloaks again

Author
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#41 - 2012-11-02 17:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Raiko Osburn wrote:
Only problem about AFK cloakers is, it is completly risk free. If you are afk cloaked in space, you dont have to play the game. Still your character is online and he is in ship in space. Players should be able to detect it one way or another. Even if it takes hour or two.

As said by someone else in the last thread.
Yes, AFK claoking is completely risk free. it also provides zero reward so the zero risk is acceptable. Risk vs reward balance is maintained.

The only negative impact an AFK cloaker has is whay you let them have.

If you are to afraid to undock while there is an AFK claoker in your system that is your own stupidity and fear keeping you from playing not some AFK player. If they come back from AFK and it results in some PVP for you then what is the problem? Null sec is a PVP zone. If you are not prepared for PVP then do not live there.

AFK cloakers are not a threat. They are AFK, they do not see anything, they do not collect intel, they do not attack, they do not lite cyno's for hot drops.

If they do any of these things then they are NOT AFK. If you are afraid of them doing any of these things then your issue is not with AFK cloakers but the players you only think are AFK. They are using the espionage mechanics as they were intended to be used. This is not a broken mechanic.

That being said, it would be cool though if there was an anti cloak sov upgrade. Just like there is a cyno jammer preventing jump drive access. An Anti cloak sov upgrade could send out an automated pulse at a preset interval that would decloak any cloaked ships in the system. This should hit all ships friendly or not. Getting hit by this pulse should put your cloak into a 5 minute cool down before it can be reactivated. A claoky spy just needs to avoid getting scanned down until they can reactivate their cloak. An AFK cloaker would be free to be scanned down, but in reality this would simply deter AFK cloakers from targeting systems with the anti cloak upgrade, just as you can not target cyno jammed systems for a hot drop.

I don't see how such an addition would be game breaking. In exchange for giving a system some immunity to cloaked spys you are also giving up your own ability to cloak in that system. You want to remove AFK cloakers from a specific system, you have to pay for it, and use an upgrade slot. If you don't, business as usual.
Oaiso
#42 - 2012-11-02 18:41:21 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

That being said, it would be cool though if there was an anti cloak sov upgrade. Just like there is a cyno jammer preventing jump drive access. An Anti cloak sov upgrade could send out an automated pulse at a preset interval that would decloak any cloaked ships in the system. This should hit all ships friendly or not. Getting hit by this pulse should put your cloak into a 5 minute cool down before it can be reactivated. A claoky spy just needs to avoid getting scanned down until they can reactivate their cloak. An AFK cloaker would be free to be scanned down, but in reality this would simply deter AFK cloakers from targeting systems with the anti cloak upgrade, just as you can not target cyno jammed systems for a hot drop.


That would be cool if there were a faction police upgrade, so that you could hire NPC police for your alliance and they wouldn't let cloaky ships cloak and they helped you kill invaders. That would be cool wouldn't it guys?
CataCourier
Gordon Industries
#43 - 2012-11-02 20:13:40 UTC
I personally love setting traps for cloaky neuts that come into my system. Gives some excitement to my otherwise dull and uneventful ops.

That said, there does need to be some counter to cloaked ships. People who back cloaks and afk cloakers do have some valid arguments about miners/carebears just crying about it. What isn't brought up is the issue that cloakers have 100% advantage on who they strike and when, with zero way of anyone finding them (unless they're daft and bump into someone). Cloakers should still be undetectable when they are actually playing, but if you're sitting still in a cloaked ship (either afk or just logged in annoying people and not fighting), then there should be a way to detect them.

Any time a cloaked ship is in your system, they are a threat. Whether it is a perceived threat or an actual threat is the difference. The issue is that people can go into a hostile system and cloak up, and act as a perceived threat even when they aren't playing the game. Let's say they do that prior to going to bed. When they wake up, they have a complete and utter advantage against anyone still in the system, and can pick and choose their targets at will.

I find it funny that all of these "pvpers" in cloaked ships immediately dump on any anti-AFK cloak threads... yet they are using a mechanic that utilizes rudimentary pvp skills at best. On the same note, the people that just make threads and whine about it need to sack up and prepare a trap/tank/etc to counter the inevitable attack.

Actually, we should just leave cloaked afk as-is. Anything to stuff my competition works for me :)
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#44 - 2012-11-03 00:29:50 UTC
larzslayer1 wrote:
Cloaks are the only thing in game with no counter.
If there a more effective way for all to deal with this issue feel free to add on constructively.


Speaking as a covert ops person:

The act of cloaking is it's own counter. Aside from Covert Ops, you can't warp and you certainly cannot fire weapons.
There are other "concerns" but nerfing cloaks won't really remove them.

The main issue with Cloaks is the FUD factor.

EVE plays well with FUD.

The best 'nerf' to covert ops would not be to negatively impact cloaking but improve other mechanics in the game. If you think of EVE as an evolving universe the following should make sense:
An improvement to probes has been discovered allowing cloaked vessels to be approximately pinpointed. Uppon warping to the approximate location (within 5-10KM of the last pinpoint), the probing ship can further enhance their search using the directions scanner to ping the location of the cloaked vessel.

An AFK cloaked ship standing still would be easily discovered and killed.
An AFK cloaked ship moving would still be discovered and killed.
A non AFK and aware pilot of a cloaked ship would see the scan probes and move - which then reveals to the scanner that the person is not AFK.

With a mechanic like this the cloak feature is not nerfed directly but indirectly by improving technology. It does not become an anti-cloaking iWin button and at the same time it will lead to the tears of AFK cloakers. In the end, it fixes a mechanic in the game without breaking the existing mechanics.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#45 - 2012-11-05 10:54:23 UTC
Petrified wrote:
larzslayer1 wrote:
Cloaks are the only thing in game with no counter.
If there a more effective way for all to deal with this issue feel free to add on constructively.


Speaking as a covert ops person:

The act of cloaking is it's own counter. Aside from Covert Ops, you can't warp and you certainly cannot fire weapons.
There are other "concerns" but nerfing cloaks won't really remove them.

The main issue with Cloaks is the FUD factor.

EVE plays well with FUD.

The best 'nerf' to covert ops would not be to negatively impact cloaking but improve other mechanics in the game. If you think of EVE as an evolving universe the following should make sense:
An improvement to probes has been discovered allowing cloaked vessels to be approximately pinpointed. Uppon warping to the approximate location (within 5-10KM of the last pinpoint), the probing ship can further enhance their search using the directions scanner to ping the location of the cloaked vessel.

An AFK cloaked ship standing still would be easily discovered and killed.
An AFK cloaked ship moving would still be discovered and killed.
A non AFK and aware pilot of a cloaked ship would see the scan probes and move - which then reveals to the scanner that the person is not AFK.

With a mechanic like this the cloak feature is not nerfed directly but indirectly by improving technology. It does not become an anti-cloaking iWin button and at the same time it will lead to the tears of AFK cloakers. In the end, it fixes a mechanic in the game without breaking the existing mechanics.



Except that mechanic destroys wormhole space. Nice try though.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#46 - 2012-11-05 12:36:57 UTC
tbh if you're that scared of an unknown face in local, you should go back to highsec.

Seriously, if you can't stay aligned and watch your overview for something decloaking you are absolutely terrible at the game.

Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-11-05 16:19:03 UTC
So you want to farm safer in your "private" high sec.
And then it's the same people who call high-sec inhabitants carebears Roll
Graff Spee
Lonercorp
#48 - 2012-11-06 09:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Graff Spee
Back in 2007, the corp I was in were renters in nul sec. At first, we were pretty much like all the pubbies, ratting, paying rent, dying to roaming gangs. But when we were told to x up, we did. Cloakers learned not to attack us, it was almost always a trap...we killed alot of them, and eventually ended up in a powerful alliance. Hiding and complaining would have left us as powerless renters, fodder fore the war machine, practice for small gang warfare. Baiting the cloakers got us a reputation among the cloakers that would prey on us, and eventually they spent less and less time in the same system as us, preferring to find the easier targets.
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#49 - 2012-11-08 21:22:25 UTC
larzslayer1 wrote:
I would think people that hold SOV would like the ability to remove players from there space for safety reasons
anyone can look at the map and see what systems in 0.0 are being used as mining systems or combat its fairly easy to place a cloaked ship in those systems preventing them from being fully utilized.

and there is nothing in game that can stop them,


But that is asking to play a game of magic, of Dungeons and Dragons. This isn't a game where one can cast a spell and magically banish everyone from your kingdom.

This is a game of technology, where you can detect that someone is in the system that you have laid claim to, which doesn't mean that you own, and because of their technological abilities you don't know where.

You know, I think that I will take up AFK Cloaking just for the fun of it. Let's see how long it will take me to train for it...

These threads are ridiculous.

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?

vlad0821 Artwik
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-11-08 22:45:39 UTC
I don't care too much about affk cloakers, if they are on my usuall systems wile im ratting i just dock and switch to my pvp ships and keep playing the game it dont really disturbs me, i go for a roam, or i get in to my mining barge and do some mining, also if im not tired i try to set traps, sometimes i win and sometimes i lose (you have to admit is really hard to catch them), however i think afk cloakies needs to have some kind of nerf, no profession should be completly safe in eve, if you afk on a freighter or a mining barge you risk your self to be ganked, if you autopilot in even in your pod you risk to be ganked, but if you log and cloak all the day and all the night you keep your self safe, thats kinda unbalanced if you ask me.

options to balance the game: the need of some kind of fuel to cloak that gets consumed every minute and a fuel bay on the cloakies with a limmited cargo size.

cyno jammed systems should work against cyno cov ops drops


Contras to cloakies:
1) your own cloakie recon near your bait ship, a cloakie dictor will help also.
2) a bait transport (they really cant resist a transport even if they know is a trap) [they will be hard to hold enough time though]
3) camping near systems gates (you will need good decloakers and fast lockers, also you will need to pray hes not *** enough to stay all the day in the same system
4) drag bubbles (is so funny when they fall for them :p "wth why i was decloacked ohh wtf im pointed... o god i forgot to jump in to a cheap clone")
5) if you are gonna kill rats or mine with a cloackie around at least try to be fleeted with friends.
6) i bet there are other ways would like to hear

however nerf the cloakies






bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-11-08 23:24:42 UTC
Remove cloakers from local. "Problem" solved.
Probebly Afk Cloaking
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-11-09 12:20:15 UTC
working as intended
fr0gout
#53 - 2012-11-14 14:39:52 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:


It is like people who whinge about ECM, Yes ECM is annoying - But you can fit implants, modules, etc that can reduce its effect drastically. (Get neuted? Cant fire guns? Cant tank? Same thing really)



Neuts don't have super long range, work instantly, and have more practical module based counters that also happen to me more useful if ECM doesn't show up either. Not the same thing. ECM is completely broken.
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#54 - 2012-11-14 16:46:44 UTC
I just bought myself a Rupture.

It's so hideous in appararance that the kindest thing would be to ensure that the cloaking device were to be permanently left on.

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?

Kazim Scumling
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-11-14 17:19:06 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Except that mechanic destroys wormhole space.


Can you elaborate more?
Flyingleanpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#56 - 2012-11-14 18:40:43 UTC
larzslayer1 wrote:
I would think people that hold SOV would like the ability to remove players from there space for safety reasons
anyone can look at the map and see what systems in 0.0 are being used as mining systems or combat its fairly easy to place a cloaked ship in those systems preventing them from being fully utilized.

and there is nothing in game that can stop them,




Its not their space they just live there. SOV holders don't have some magical ability to change the game mechanics just because they're scared.

Nothing is preventing these systems from being "fully utilized", only the choices of the players that live there.

There are absolutely things that can be done about them, its just that people are too lazy/ignorant/dramatic/dimwitted to figure them out and do something for themselves instead of making 69,000 forum posts about how its broken and unfair
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-11-14 18:53:31 UTC
Kazim Scumling wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Except that mechanic destroys wormhole space.


Can you elaborate more?



One of the key defining traits of wormhole space is the lack of local This allows covert ops to be truly covert. It is one of the key features that makes wormholes so awesome. Having a "special" probe that can decect a cloaked ship in system completely devalue's the lack of local in WH space.
Johnny Jinks
Finnerwamkoomen
#58 - 2012-11-19 19:49:16 UTC
i like cloaks just how they are. i dont get all the whining from either side.
Mabon Clave
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-11-19 20:17:50 UTC
OP, you are a fool.

There is no fix to cloaks because there is no problem with cloaks.

AFK cloaking? how exactly is that a problem to anybody?

How can somebody who is AWAY FROM KEYBOARD do anything to you when he is.....AFK.

Or is the real problem here the fact that an AFK cloaky person scares you?

Should CCP break a perfectly working feature because some players are....scared?


If thats what you really think, then obviously the problem is you, not the game.
EvE is not for you. Try WoW or My Little Pony online or something more suited to your play style.
Hirimatsu Yamamoto
AGGRESSIVE ASSET RELOCATION
#60 - 2012-11-20 02:51:47 UTC
OMG, really? People are still complaining about this?

There are just as many disadvantages to flying a cloaky ship as there are advantages.

Get better at flying your own ships, and stop worrying about the cloaker, or move to another system. Simple. The game mechanic works fine as it is, and there are plenty of "anti cloaker" tactics you can use against them. If you can't defend your own pocket/system, then perhaps you shouldn't be holding it in the first place.