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Suicide gank "math", cheapest ship?
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#1 - 2012-11-05 04:11:18 UTC
What is the traditional ship to use for high-sec big-game ganking, e.g. taking down a Deep Space Transport, Orca or Freighter, with the intent of profiting from its cargo?

How much alpha does it do, and what is the approximate cost of said fit? I'm assuming it's one of the tier 3 Battlecruisers, but I don't know which one, or how they are usede, or how they are usually fitted.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#2 - 2012-11-05 04:52:02 UTC
A guide to suicide ganking.
Step 1: buy Tornado
Step 2: fit artillery with high derps ammo
Step 3: fit damage mods
Step 5: notice I skipped step 4
Step 6: find target of interest
Step 7: lock up said target
Step 8: press "I win" button
Pirate

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3 - 2012-11-05 05:17:33 UTC
Tornado if you can afford to not worry about time limits.
Talos if you want to take a more sensible approach but restrict yourself to areas with lower sec level.
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#4 - 2012-11-05 05:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
Basically what was said above, I don't partake in suicide ganking but heres some extra stuff for you

[Tornado, ALPHA]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]

This puts out 13.3k alpha and costs 115mil.
You can play with the modules and for 8 million less you can have 12k alpha but I don't think the price difference is worth the loss or alternatively, for 15mil more you can have 14k alpha, but once again, I don't think its worth it.

An all V freighter would have around 200k EHP, doing the math you'd ~16 minimum Nados (~1.7bil) although I'm not sure with resists and stuff taken into account.

You'd obviously need much less for deep space transport and JFs and stuff like that, you can also fit Arty thrashers and try catching small stuff carrying high value loot.

Edit//
Sorry I derped, those numbers are with double 5% damage implants, forgot I had them in.
Boomhaur
#5 - 2012-11-05 05:31:38 UTC
What others have pretty much said, for any large targets such as freighters, JF's, etc you pretty much need your corp to help you or a lot of friends. For smaller targets such as a lone industrial, etc you can do it with a single t3 BC or Dessie depending on what it is. Don't ignore frigs, a lot of people transport stuff in fast align frigs, even if their not covert ops with a cloak so those may contain some juicy loot.

Fair warning though look out for tanked ships, just because it's a cruiser doesn't mean it can't field as much EHP as a Freighter, take the Augoror Navy Issue, without slaves you can field I think it was 120k EHP or around there from one of my builds with just t1 rigs and t2 modules, and with HG Slaves I think I was pushing 180k or something on the lowest resist and a cruiser size sig. So keep track of which ships can tank a lot (armor tank bounus ships should be a dead giveaway due to slave implants and passive resist module options making it easy).

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2012-11-05 10:52:21 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
A guide to suicide ganking.
Step 1: buy Tornado
Step 2: fit artillery with high derps ammo
Step 3: fit damage mods
Step 5: notice I skipped step 4
Step 6: find target of interest
Step 7: lock up said target
Step 8: press "I win" button
Pirate



step four would likely be a scanner alt
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#7 - 2012-11-05 10:54:21 UTC
[Rupture, Suicide]

Gyrostabilizer I
Gyrostabilizer I
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Reactor Control Unit I

J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Target Painter I

720mm Howitzer Artillery I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Heavy Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]


Garde I x1


costs 12mil. Get a few friends in these and your golden.

Only reason to fly a tornado is to have 4/5 of them and 1-shot a massively expensive, super deadspace fitted missioning battleship.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-11-05 13:44:49 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
A guide to suicide ganking.
Step 1: buy Tornado
Step 2: fit artillery with high derps ammo
Step 3: fit damage mods
Step 5: notice I skipped step 4
Step 6: find target of interest
Step 7: lock up said target
Step 8: press "I win" button
Pirate


Step 9: watch from your pod as hull-tanked Orca with reinforced bulkheads and Damage Control II moseys into warp.

Cool

(Alternatively, bring about fifteen buddies in Tornados and cross your fingers.)

(Seriously, at well over 200,000 EHP you're not going to crack a well-tanked Orca without one and a half billion ISK's worth of gank Tornados.)

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-11-05 19:42:46 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Basically what was said above, I don't partake in suicide ganking but heres some extra stuff for you

[Tornado, ALPHA]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]

This puts out 13.3k alpha and costs 115mil.
You can play with the modules and for 8 million less you can have 12k alpha but I don't think the price difference is worth the loss or alternatively, for 15mil more you can have 14k alpha, but once again, I don't think its worth it.

An all V freighter would have around 200k EHP, doing the math you'd ~16 minimum Nados (~1.7bil) although I'm not sure with resists and stuff taken into account.

You'd obviously need much less for deep space transport and JFs and stuff like that, you can also fit Arty thrashers and try catching small stuff carrying high value loot.

Edit//
Sorry I derped, those numbers are with double 5% damage implants, forgot I had them in.



Not sure you'll be able to put a second volley unless top skilled pilots with prob implant.

This thing can be done with about 7 x1500dps Talos and you can even add an 850 dps Brutix for lols because it's cheapo and you don't care about overkill. With decently skilled pilots you're able to put at least 3 volley but my bet goes on 4 maybe 5 if 0.5SS and you know how to play Concord games. Not sure on the 5th volley thou.

brb
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#10 - 2012-11-05 21:40:35 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
Liam Inkuras wrote:
A guide to suicide ganking.
Step 1: buy Tornado
Step 2: fit artillery with high derps ammo
Step 3: fit damage mods
Step 5: notice I skipped step 4
Step 6: find target of interest
Step 7: lock up said target
Step 8: press "I win" button
Pirate


Step 9: watch from your pod as hull-tanked Orca with reinforced bulkheads and Damage Control II moseys into warp.

Cool

(Alternatively, bring about fifteen buddies in Tornados and cross your fingers.)

(Seriously, at well over 200,000 EHP you're not going to crack a well-tanked Orca without one and a half billion ISK's worth of gank Tornados.)

This is true, but that gank does not cost 1.5 bil. What is the salvage and loot worth on those 15 ganknados? What is the salvage worth on the ORCA? This is where the 1 bil gank cost of a freighter came from. 15 ganknados can easily drop over 1/2 bil in loot and salvage.This is recoverable isk even without any loot drop from the target. Not to mention a blaster fit talos can get two shots off before CONCORD gets there in lower class systems, doing more damage per ship than alfa fit ganknados meaning less ships are needed.

This is why the cost of ganking a freighter is down to about 650 mil. Less talos are needed than ganknados and the loot and salvage from both the gank ships and the target off set the cost. Any loot that drops worth more than 650 mil is mostly profit. So why not continue ganking if you are making a profit while doing it.

If you enjoy ganking other players. And can do it and make enough profit of that activity to sustain doing it. It is very understandable why some players have built a business plan around that activity.
Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-11-06 00:18:59 UTC
u are stupid if you count that you will recover your tornado loot in empire. its just a bonus

also, with tornado, doing 12k alpha, the F1 button is not a "i win" button when ganking a t1 hauler.
only if said ship is untanked. it is pretty easy to tank a hauler to survive a tornado.
Dave Stark
#12 - 2012-11-06 00:45:45 UTC
Red zeon wrote:
u are stupid if you count that you will recover your tornado loot in empire. its just a bonus

also, with tornado, doing 12k alpha, the F1 button is not a "i win" button when ganking a t1 hauler.
only if said ship is untanked. it is pretty easy to tank a hauler to survive a tornado.



yet so few people bother to tank their haulers.
Seraph Castillon
In Control
Neon Nightmares
#13 - 2012-11-07 10:08:25 UTC
You might want to fit some tracking computers in the meds or you may end up missing your volley as the hauler aligns out. That would be very unpleasant for you.
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#14 - 2012-11-07 11:33:40 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:
You might want to fit some tracking computers in the meds or you may end up missing your volley as the hauler aligns out. That would be very unpleasant for you.


Yeah this, cheap ones won't really make a dent in the cost.

Also, I was unaware of the use of multiple Talos to suicide-gank, I always thought it was alpha nados exclusively for that 1 shot wonder though I can see how it would be useful against higher EHP targets like freighters. If you can use 7x Talos and a Brutix, that would save quite alot of cost.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-11-07 18:36:30 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Seraph Castillon wrote:
You might want to fit some tracking computers in the meds or you may end up missing your volley as the hauler aligns out. That would be very unpleasant for you.


Yeah this, cheap ones won't really make a dent in the cost.

Also, I was unaware of the use of multiple Talos to suicide-gank, I always thought it was alpha nados exclusively for that 1 shot wonder though I can see how it would be useful against higher EHP targets like freighters. If you can use 7x Talos and a Brutix, that would save quite alot of cost.


Dependant on security status of the system and if you pulled concord before iirc. The response time in a 0.5 system (the bottleneck from amarr to jita for example) leave you enough time to apply dps insetad of having to rely on pure alpha like a 0.9 system would require.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-11-07 20:44:14 UTC
Red zeon wrote:
u are stupid if you count that you will recover your tornado loot in empire. its just a bonus

also, with tornado, doing 12k alpha, the F1 button is not a "i win" button when ganking a t1 hauler.
only if said ship is untanked. it is pretty easy to tank a hauler to survive a tornado.


Yeah, recovering some random ganker's loot used to be my favorite thing ever when I undocked in my salvage dessie and made my way to my last few missions.