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Fleet hangars and changes to various settings

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Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#261 - 2012-11-02 22:47:20 UTC
Simpler =/= Better.

Different divisions within hangars in carriers, supers, etc, was extremely useful, and in some cases, practically necessary. As a carrier pilot, I would rather have the old hangar system that I could at least somewhat organize, than the new system, which forces everything to be thrown all into one pile.

Terrible change.
Vindictate
Vae Caudex Corporation
#262 - 2012-11-02 23:00:17 UTC
Organization is key for the Orca. CCP dont take away my organization, its like having a 60" tv break only to be told that its replacement 13" also does the job, sure it does just not as well. If you dont have the resources to do it right take your time till next winter.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#263 - 2012-11-02 23:51:49 UTC
Kari Juptris wrote:
I don't agree with them dropping functionality however, but I'm more or less okay with the container based replacement for corp hangers in ships.

Well, I'm not. Containers are just annoying. The new UI makes this a little easier, yes. But they'll never be able to replace the current divisions. Not unless they adapt in size.

I'm fine with the other changes though Twisted.

Remove standings and insurance.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#264 - 2012-11-03 00:25:08 UTC
Containers are annoying CCP. Even more annoying after the Inferno Inventory UI to the point its too much of a hassle to make them worth using.

There is nothing wrong with the corp hangar system. It should be secure not simply having any fellow in the fleet being able to take things at will.

mrpapageorgio
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#265 - 2012-11-03 00:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: mrpapageorgio
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ok, so here's our current complete plan:


  • Corp hangars *on ships* are now fleet hangars
  • Volumes will all stay the same
  • Divisions are gone, as is any other reliance on corp roles
  • Ship fitting array is always available to everyone in your corp and/or your fleet
  • Ship fitting arrays on ships and starbases no longer restrict the number of characters that can use them simulataneously
  • Fleet hangars and ship maintenance arrays on ships both now have "allow fleet member use" and "allow corp member use" in the inventory UI
  • We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)
  • For containers in a fleet hangar, only the pilot will ever be allowed to open or remove the container; other characters will only be able to drop into the container (with a warning)
  • Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)


We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale


Some of these changes are quite good and have been a long time coming, such as removing the restrictions on ship fitting.

However, Containers, no matter what new sizes are available, are not an acceptable replacement for divisions. Divisions are useful for organization and access control. What makes them so superior is that they are not a fixed size. I can stick as much or as little as I want in division 1 and not worry about there being wasted space or anyone being able to take a handful of officer mods. Flying a supercapital this is especially important. At the very minimum there should be a public and private division of the hangar that do not have a fixed individual size.

Fleet hangar and SMA access controls should be totally separate. Just because I want to hand someone a rifter doesn't mean they should have access to modules in my now division less fleet hangar, or vice-versa.

If the changes go through in their current form, I will simply never allow anyone access to my fleet hangar and you will have effectively removed that functionality.
Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#266 - 2012-11-03 00:52:28 UTC
Quote:
Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)



This just means I am going to have to start paying people to move my stuff despite the fact I own multiple freighters. This is literally the only thing the Orca had going for it (as a hauler) over freighters for my uses.

Good job on making ganking easier. Seriously. It needed it or something.
Cobalt Rookits
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2012-11-03 03:26:13 UTC
While there are some good changes here (Ship fitting array/permissions) you have seriously nerfed the hell out of CHAs. While I get you need to update code, you will have removed most of their functionality and ease of use. Static containers do not replace the divisions.
WhaleCommander
Caucasian Culture Club
#268 - 2012-11-03 05:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: WhaleCommander
Containers offer nowhere near the accessibility or convenience of a division hangar, not to mention containers have limitations on how much you can put in it, while divisions are limited by the maximum size of the corp hangar bay.

Opening containers loading them up is a pain to do. Opening divisions is secure, simpler, and faster.

Fleet hangars will have the issue of people taking crap they weren't supposed to take and creating a bunch of issues.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#269 - 2012-11-03 06:17:13 UTC
Quote:
Storing the "lock items" setting for audit log containers on the server
The "lock items" setting on audit log containers is no longer a personal setting, but it is stored on the server and applying to all users. The new default setting is "unlocked". In corporation hangars the role "Config Equipment" is needed to change the setting (assuming no password is set).


How does one buy you beer? or cookies if you don't drink.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2012-11-03 12:05:13 UTC
mrpapageorgio wrote:


Some of these changes are quite good and have been a long time coming, such as removing the restrictions on ship fitting.

However, Containers, no matter what new sizes are available, are not an acceptable replacement for divisions. Divisions are useful for organization and access control. What makes them so superior is that they are not a fixed size. I can stick as much or as little as I want in division 1 and not worry about there being wasted space or anyone being able to take a handful of officer mods. Flying a supercapital this is especially important. At the very minimum there should be a public and private division of the hangar that do not have a fixed individual size.

Fleet hangar and SMA access controls should be totally separate. Just because I want to hand someone a rifter doesn't mean they should have access to modules in my now division less fleet hangar, or vice-versa.

If the changes go through in their current form, I will simply never allow anyone access to my fleet hangar and you will have effectively removed that functionality.


what the man said!!!!
WhaleCommander
Caucasian Culture Club
#271 - 2012-11-03 12:12:59 UTC
Exactly, if I can't properly control the access and security then I am not allowing ANYONE to touch my hangars. PERIOD.
Rengerel en Distel
#272 - 2012-11-03 13:33:43 UTC
Alli Othman wrote:

No, I would like to see you whinebags stop derailing a thread on much more important changes with your incessant crying about ganking and perpetual refusal to actually tank a ship that has a massive tank- one that actually IS a way for you to dissuade gankers. CCP have to bring the toilet paper and join you in the restroom to get you pathetic mouthbreathers to take advantage of the ways you can protect yourself in this game.


When the devs bring up the feature of the fleet hangars now being scannable, it's not derailing to talk about that, and give options dealing with it. If you believe so, perhaps you can go back and talk to the goons and such that brought up double wrap, and tell them to STFU too.

TL;DR: a feature of a ship is being changed, it's not derailing to talk about it.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#273 - 2012-11-03 13:36:53 UTC
mrpapageorgio wrote:
...
Fleet hangar and SMA access controls should be totally separate. Just because I want to hand someone a rifter doesn't mean they should have access to modules in my now division less fleet hangar, or vice-versa.
...


Just for the case that this was not clear enough in the post of CCP Greyscale: Fleet Hangar and SMA access controls will be separate.

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2012-11-03 20:25:46 UTC
And the containers of variable size? Or will the CHA size be effectively nerfed by "dead space" in oversized containers?
Violet Giraffe
Space Giraffes
#275 - 2012-11-04 11:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Violet Giraffe
It's a pity you don't announce the changes earlier and it comes at surprise. I'm a new player, and this is the third of the things that has been in Eve for years and getting nerfed as soon as I train for it. Very frustrating.
Not to mention you're taking away the only counter to high-sec ganking.
Tiberizzle
Your Mom Heavy Industries
#276 - 2012-11-04 11:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberizzle
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ok, so here's our current complete plan:


  • Corp hangars *on ships* are now fleet hangars
  • Volumes will all stay the same
  • Divisions are gone, as is any other reliance on corp roles
  • Ship fitting array is always available to everyone in your corp and/or your fleet
  • Ship fitting arrays on ships and starbases no longer restrict the number of characters that can use them simulataneously
  • Fleet hangars and ship maintenance arrays on ships both now have "allow fleet member use" and "allow corp member use" in the inventory UI
  • We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)
  • For containers in a fleet hangar, only the pilot will ever be allowed to open or remove the container; other characters will only be able to drop into the container (with a warning)
  • Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)


We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale


Make in-space refitting out of containers in cargo / CHA behave consistently if you're going to introduce container dependent mechanics. It's a mess that makes no sense right now.

Currently you can refit in space to fitting screen from container in cargo, CHA, cargo, but iirc not container in CHA.

You can refit from anywhere (including container in CHA) while docked to fitting screen.

Incongruously you fan refit in space to empty module slots on module bar from only cargo, not CHA or containers. The mouse icon changes like it wants to do something when dragging from container, but when you drop onto the empty module slot nothing happens. You can even more confusingly unfit from the module bars to a container.

Note: some of this may be inaccurate, I didn't re-test the mechanics to construct this post and can't recall all the specific convolutions. Suffice to say, it's a ******* mess.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#277 - 2012-11-04 16:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Haur
Mioelnir wrote:
And the containers of variable size? Or will the CHA size be effectively nerfed by "dead space" in oversized containers?

Would that not be counteracted by use of compressive GSCs for fuel? I quite like the idea of carrying 30% extra fuel for the same (GSC-sized) space.


Also, +1 to the above post about making fitting items in space work properly. You MUST be able to refit from containers in FH for this change to be successful.
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#278 - 2012-11-04 20:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Habakuk
Tiberizzle wrote:

Make in-space refitting out of containers in cargo / CHA behave consistently if you're going to introduce container dependent mechanics. It's a mess that makes no sense right now.

Currently you can refit in space to fitting screen from container in cargo, CHA, cargo, but iirc not container in CHA.

You can refit from anywhere (including container in CHA) while docked to fitting screen.

Incongruously you fan refit in space to empty module slots on module bar from only cargo, not CHA or containers. The mouse icon changes like it wants to do something when dragging from container, but when you drop onto the empty module slot nothing happens. You can even more confusingly unfit from the module bars to a container.

Note: some of this may be inaccurate, I didn't re-test the mechanics to construct this post and can't recall all the specific convolutions. Suffice to say, it's a ******* mess.


I just tested this in our current development version and refitting directly from a container in your own fleet hangar works fine, including dragging and dropping multiple items onto the fitting screen. We were not doing any changes to Corporate Hangar Arrays (CHA) at a POS, so any problems there will still be around.
Please feel free to test containers in fleet hangars in detail on Duality or Buckingham as soon as one of them are updated with these changes - it is easily possible that I missed some cases (but I will also test more in the following days).

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing
Amethyst Sparrow
Viktor's Invention Emporium
#279 - 2012-11-05 07:35:58 UTC
I have to say that removing the corp hangers is actually rather annoying.

I use those for division and organization of crap in my orcas. I find it extremely helpful.


Not to mention the fact that applied roles are even more useful. You might look into some other than a fleet hanger.... Or adjust the cargo bay.


I'm really disappointed in this change.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#280 - 2012-11-05 13:15:07 UTC
mrpapageorgio wrote:
However, Containers, no matter what new sizes are available, are not an acceptable replacement for divisions. Divisions are useful for organization and access control. What makes them so superior is that they are not a fixed size. I can stick as much or as little as I want in division 1 and not worry about there being wasted space or anyone being able to take a handful of officer mods. Flying a supercapital this is especially important.


This is the EXACT point you are missing (or choosing to ignore).

This is a no-brainer for anyone who has flown a super (or carrier for that matter) in combat. Clearly the Devs that are pushing this have not.

Listen to people who have. Seriously.