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The Hypocrisy of High Sec

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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#401 - 2012-11-02 19:36:07 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Get it now Touval?

I'll wear that mate. My bad.

Saw my name, assumed the normal postition. Oops

(I've been Zimmified, makes ya get sensitive)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2012-11-02 19:41:24 UTC


Changing local won't change anything, It's effects will be as big as crimewatch or the new bounty system, almost zero.

The reason is cultural, either there is a culture of High Sec being a legitimate to spend your entire EVE career or it's a place to be tempted out of (definintely not forced out of).

This is the fundamental decision CCP has to make and it can't be both ways round. Everything else is just window dressing.

Thanks
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#403 - 2012-11-02 22:10:21 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:


Changing local won't change anything, It's effects will be as big as crimewatch or the new bounty system, almost zero.


So you're saying that two changes that still haven't been implemented had no effect in the game?

Wonder why, i do.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#404 - 2012-11-03 20:28:32 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:


Changing local won't change anything, It's effects will be as big as crimewatch or the new bounty system, almost zero.


So you're saying that two changes that still haven't been implemented had no effect in the game?

Wonder why, i do.



Maybe I'm wrong, maybe bounties will set High Sec on fire and ships will die by the thousand.

But somehow I doubt it.

Thanks
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#405 - 2012-11-03 20:33:33 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:


Changing local won't change anything, It's effects will be as big as crimewatch or the new bounty system, almost zero.


So you're saying that two changes that still haven't been implemented had no effect in the game?

Wonder why, i do.



Maybe I'm wrong, maybe bounties will set High Sec on fire and ships will die by the thousand.

But somehow I doubt it.



You're underestimating the power of wardec system+bounty+crimewatch under Concord applauds

brb
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#406 - 2012-11-03 22:09:39 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
You're underestimating the power of wardec system+bounty+crimewatch under Concord applauds

No, they aren't.

Bounties won't do any good, and as far as I can tell, Crimewatch 2.0 is *not* going to encourage pvp.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#407 - 2012-11-03 22:19:04 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
Why is your 15 bucks a month more important than mine?


The one question that automatically invalidates 90%+ of all "nerf hisec" whine threads. So thank you. Blink

As to the nullbears: You guys were given a true rules-free sandbox out there in nullspace a long, long time ago. If it's broken it's because you broke it. If you're bored you have no one to blame but yourselves. Try cleaning up your own back yard before trying to dump more of your garbage in ours.

The sound of the Amarrian heart
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#408 - 2012-11-03 22:25:32 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
If it's broken it's because you broke it.

Nope, we didn't make L4s in hisec valuable enough, and little enough effort, that it's not worthwhile for most people to make isk in nullsec. We didn't make the industrial capacity of nullsec so bad that it's much better, by far, to make everything in hisec and ship it to nullsec, we didn't make it so mining veldspar etc is literally a pants on head ******** activity to perform in nullsec, and as a consequence it isn't our fault nullsec is a complete and utter wasteland outside of fleet fights.

That is all on CCP. It is their failure to incentivize players into making isk in nullsec, it is their failure to incentivize players to make stuff in nullsec (except supercaps), it is their failure to incentivize players to mine, and it is their failure that roaming gangs are all but futile. Not the players.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#409 - 2012-11-03 22:49:21 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.


Small changes will have a huge impact. For example, removing Nocxium from Pyroxeres means there will be no Nocxium available in hisec (apart from a number of grav sites). The increase in value of Nocxium will mean lowsec mining becomes worthwhile Big smile

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#410 - 2012-11-03 23:14:03 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:
So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.


Small changes will have a huge impact. For example, removing Nocxium from Pyroxeres means there will be no Nocxium available in hisec (apart from a number of grav sites). The increase in value of Nocxium will mean lowsec mining becomes worthwhile Big smile


More expensive, yes. Worthwhile, unlikely.

Like everything in a big market, after few weeks the miners in low sec would be back to razor thin profits able to just cover the statistical probability of being blown up.

So, they'd probably make 200M per hour.... while overall losing 195M per hour in lost ships.
Of course they could call for protection but then the income loss would put them well inside other way less dangerous areas levels of income and they'd switch to them.

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David Campbell
Gallente Militia War Supplies
#411 - 2012-11-04 01:25:59 UTC
Another thought, don't nerf High Sec, just reduce its size. Make it so that in system with sec status between 0.5 and 0.7 instead of concord intervening it would be navy NPC. I don't know, you could call it medium sec. That way you would still have very safe high sec, not so safe "med sec" and not safe at all low sec.
People wanting to be left alone could still play the game and there would be much more competition for moons, stations slots and asteroid belt.

PS : what I just said might be me talking out of my ass, but for my defense, I'm drunk and TQ is offline Lol and the only drawback I can see is that freighters might be ganked a lot more while traveling in between faction spaces.
Natasha Liao
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#412 - 2012-11-04 03:54:53 UTC
Quote:
I don't understand why we are being told how to play. Is this going to become a Diablo 3 type community where we look to the creators on how to play with every new patch?

I think this pretty much sums up a lot of the disagreement, wouldn't you say?

Oh yeah ... I found that on the Mech Warrior Online Forum. Seems to be a lot of this going around. Blink

You're using logic on an internet discussion forum. A rookie mistake, but one you'll soon learn to avoid. -Destiny Corrupted
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#413 - 2012-11-04 06:08:43 UTC
Do tell us more of your utopia of perfectly balanced risk and gameplay. Seriously, I want brochures.

John Hancock
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#414 - 2012-11-04 06:14:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
That is all on CCP. It is their failure to incentivize players into making isk in nullsec, it is their failure to incentivize players to make stuff in nullsec (except supercaps), it is their failure to incentivize players to mine, and it is their failure that roaming gangs are all but futile. Not the players.


Let's assume that I agree with on these points. Are you then suggesting that the solution to null-sec's problems is to make hi-sec more like null-sec? How does that solve anything?

You don't fix a broken leg by breaking the other so that they'll match.

If null-sec has problems then it's null-sec that needs fixing, not hi-sec that needs nerfing.

By all means, if you want to suggest repairs to null-sec so as to make it more inviting and to lure people out of hi-sec, go right ahead. But I can't get behind any ideas designed to force people out of hi-sec.

"There Is No Such Thing As Justice. There Is Only The Desire To See The Pain Spread Around Equally." - Solomon Short

The sound of the Amarrian heart
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#415 - 2012-11-04 06:39:55 UTC
+1 Support for shooting the elephant in the room which is the risk:reward ratio being very off. I like some of your ideas about ore redistribution and agree that the reward for living in high sec should be lower than it is now and higher than it is now for low/null.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#416 - 2012-11-04 07:03:51 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
That is all on CCP. It is their failure to incentivize players into making isk in nullsec, it is their failure to incentivize players to make stuff in nullsec (except supercaps), it is their failure to incentivize players to mine, and it is their failure that roaming gangs are all but futile. Not the players.


Let's assume that I agree with on these points. Are you then suggesting that the solution to null-sec's problems is to make hi-sec more like null-sec? How does that solve anything?

You don't fix a broken leg by breaking the other so that they'll match.

If null-sec has problems then it's null-sec that needs fixing, not hi-sec that needs nerfing.

By all means, if you want to suggest repairs to null-sec so as to make it more inviting and to lure people out of hi-sec, go right ahead. But I can't get behind any ideas designed to force people out of hi-sec.

"There Is No Such Thing As Justice. There Is Only The Desire To See The Pain Spread Around Equally." - Solomon Short



It is still all relative.

If they just buffed nullsec and left highsec exactly where it is at, the increase in rat bounties would cause a lot of inflation problems. How does 1+ billion for a PLEX sound? If they just throw more minerals at nullsec, the market could get flooded. Do you highsec miners want to see your isk/hr drop because nullsec gets some kind of super ore?


To take your chair analogy. If you tried to balance the chair by constantly cutting legs shorter, you would eventually be sitting on the ground. If you tried to do it by adding to the length of the legs, it would eventually hit the ceiling.


Balance in this case is going to need some give and some take. To balance out the inflation of increasing rat bounties in nullsec, highsec would need a bigger isk sink, like increase station service fees, or isk costs in LP stores. If you add ore to nullsec, you have to take some from highsec or increase mineral costs for production, increase mineral loss or lower refinery yields.

And realistically, there should be some higher costs associated with living in the nice neighborhood of Eve.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#417 - 2012-11-04 07:08:40 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Balance in this case is going to need some give and some take. To balance out the inflation of increasing rat bounties in nullsec, highsec would need a bigger isk sink, like increase station service fees, or isk costs in LP stores. If you add ore to nullsec, you have to take some from highsec or increase mineral costs for production, increase mineral loss or lower refinery yields.

And realistically, there should be some higher costs associated with living in the nice neighborhood of Eve.


You know that CCP won't do that because the hiseccers would whine endlessly. They'd come up with some nonsense like "we don't want to punish 'new players' so we're balancing the faucets by increasing sov bills by 100%" and we'd be back at square one.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#418 - 2012-11-04 07:49:04 UTC
Andski wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Balance in this case is going to need some give and some take. To balance out the inflation of increasing rat bounties in nullsec, highsec would need a bigger isk sink, like increase station service fees, or isk costs in LP stores. If you add ore to nullsec, you have to take some from highsec or increase mineral costs for production, increase mineral loss or lower refinery yields.

And realistically, there should be some higher costs associated with living in the nice neighborhood of Eve.


You know that CCP won't do that because the hiseccers would whine endlessly. They'd come up with some nonsense like "we don't want to punish 'new players' so we're balancing the faucets by increasing sov bills by 100%" and we'd be back at square one.



They'll have to do it at some point. Best to do it before the game becomes so unbalanced it is unplayable. Highsecers will get used to a fee bump or losing nocx or ice and the new players coming in won't know what they had missed.
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#419 - 2012-11-04 11:26:53 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
If it's broken it's because you broke it.

Nope, we didn't make L4s in hisec valuable enough, and little enough effort, that it's not worthwhile for most people to make isk in nullsec. We didn't make the industrial capacity of nullsec so bad that it's much better, by far, to make everything in hisec and ship it to nullsec, we didn't make it so mining veldspar etc is literally a pants on head ******** activity to perform in nullsec, and as a consequence it isn't our fault nullsec is a complete and utter wasteland outside of fleet fights.

That is all on CCP. It is their failure to incentivize players into making isk in nullsec, it is their failure to incentivize players to make stuff in nullsec (except supercaps), it is their failure to incentivize players to mine, and it is their failure that roaming gangs are all but futile. Not the players.



I agree exactly with this.

I think it's easy for CCP to say, ok we're fixing this small things, oh we're changing that and then in the process slowly drag the overall balance of the game way off it's centre.

The fact that carebears even exist is a product of the games culture, I'm not arguing for this, but if High Sec were a noob zone with 15 systems, where you could practice everything before you got booted out 1 month into the game then none of these discussions would be happening.

Infact I think if there were more risk averse players in Null, and they were more valuable (miners, manufacturers, traders etc) then more would be done to protect them. I'd love to have a little money buddy who I flew around with while he made money and I shot stuff. I'd love to be a miner in a fleet protected by players.

But there's not a huge amount of point in that, so why not killmail?

Thanks
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#420 - 2012-11-04 11:54:43 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Let's assume that I agree with on these points. Are you then suggesting that the solution to null-sec's problems is to make hi-sec more like null-sec?

No, I'm not, and I'm not even going to expend time and energy trying to figure out why you think what I said was even remotely close to saying "make hisec more like nullsec", because it's not even on the same continent of relevancy.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat