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High sec cargo gank... Whats the hate? Solutions?

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Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#41 - 2012-11-03 22:00:36 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
the flaw in your analogy is that you will turn on your machines, and you will produce product.

a gankworthy freighter might not come through all day, and you produce nothing. you're comparing fixed costs to variable costs.


Quote:
The only risk is the loot fairy being evil. It puts the risk of gankinig on the same plane as PvEing for rare drops.



I admitted as much. I still think ganking is pretty risk free in the end.


All I am asking is that gankers admit they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel by claiming their play style is risky.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-11-03 22:01:00 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:



If I run a company and I know that every single time I turn on a machine it will cost me $300 an hour to run it and I also know I need to run it for 5 hours a day to create a product then I know the cost will be 300*5 per day. It is not a "risk" that I will be charged $1,500 a day. It is an operating cost of running my business.

If I know it takes 10 Tornadoes of a specific fit to kill a max skill freighter and I know that each Tornado costs me 75 mil to buy and fit. I know that a max skill freighter will cost me 75*10 million. With the cargo scanners it is extremely simple to approximate the amount of cargo and the value in a freighter. From there it is a simple bit of math to figure out the probable profit. The only risk is the loot fairy being evil. It puts the risk of gankinig on the same plane as PvEing for rare drops.


The numbers in the second paragraph are probably woefully wrong but my point stands.


Operating costs only become risks in an extremely unstable market. Even then risks in ganking are extremely easy to mitigate and most of them are occurring before the freighter even knows they are being targeted.

Ganking is relatively risk free. I never said "too" risk free. I don't mind ganking. I just think it is really dumb for people to claim it is a risky occupation. Admit y'all, you're just playing around shooting fish in a barrel.


As someone who doesn't gank anything, it didn't take me long to learn from reading the many posts people have made about this to figure out that there is no "guarantee" when ganking a freighter.

You don't support an arguement with the same evidence used to counter it.

If it doesn't drop, and sinse you can't controll the drop, then there is no "guarantee". THAT makes ganking frieghters a risk, becuase there is no "guarantee" that they will be able to pay for their loss.



You're saying that if I could fly a ship into an NPC and destroy it and myself at the same time, in the CHANCE that something will drop that will pay for my loss, I'm taking no risk. Even though that's the exact same thing you're doing when you go out and shoot NPC's, except that when you do that you're assuming very little risk.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2012-11-03 22:01:47 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
If I run a company and I know that every single time I turn on a machine it will cost me $300 an hour to run it and I also know I need to run it for 5 hours a day to create a product then I know the cost will be 300*5 per day. It is not a "risk" that I will be charged $1,500 a day. It is an operating cost of running my business.
…and it's still a risk. If you want to put it in a different column because it helps with your auditing and planning, then good for you. What you call operating costs are simply risks you have accepted because you can easily calculate them and see that they are worth taking (hell, even required) as you can see that you'll earn them back in the end.

The simple fact remains: Risk = cost × probability, and it doesn't cease to be true just because the probability is 1 (largely because the probability is never 1).

But sure, let's presume that this isn't true. Let's instead change CONCORD so it only has a 1% response rate. That will massively increase the gankers' risk, right?
Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#44 - 2012-11-03 22:02:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jaison Savrin wrote:


Ganking is relatively risk free. I never said "too" risk free. I don't mind ganking. I just think it is really dumb for people to claim it is a risky occupation. Admit y'all, you're just playing around shooting fish in a barrel.


Ganka ship with 20 bil in the cargo. Nothing drops.

1 billion in lost ships, sec status loss, killrights for attacked corp, GCC for 15 min, no insurance payout, possibility of other people scooping your loot, suddenly war targets and counter ganked.

Yep, not risky at all!



Predictable Operating costs do not meet my definition of Risk. It happens. If you do the math I bet you can even tell me how often it happens with relative accuracy. Not a risk.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-11-03 22:02:22 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
the flaw in your analogy is that you will turn on your machines, and you will produce product.

a gankworthy freighter might not come through all day, and you produce nothing. you're comparing fixed costs to variable costs.


Quote:
The only risk is the loot fairy being evil. It puts the risk of gankinig on the same plane as PvEing for rare drops.



I admitted as much. I still think ganking is pretty risk free in the end.


All I am asking is that gankers admit they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel by claiming their play style is risky.

When are they claiming it is?

I don't see anyone making a claim, I see them argueing against it.

Who said they just wanted risk free isk? It wasn't a ganker.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-11-03 22:03:06 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jaison Savrin wrote:


Ganking is relatively risk free. I never said "too" risk free. I don't mind ganking. I just think it is really dumb for people to claim it is a risky occupation. Admit y'all, you're just playing around shooting fish in a barrel.


Ganka ship with 20 bil in the cargo. Nothing drops.

1 billion in lost ships, sec status loss, killrights for attacked corp, GCC for 15 min, no insurance payout, possibility of other people scooping your loot, suddenly war targets and counter ganked.

Yep, not risky at all!



Predictable Operating costs do not meet my definition of Risk. It happens. If you do the math I bet you can even tell me how often it happens with relative accuracy. Not a risk.

It's the same ******* risk EVERY PERSON IN EVE assumes.


THE LOSS OF AN ITEM.
Dave stark
#47 - 2012-11-03 22:03:25 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
the flaw in your analogy is that you will turn on your machines, and you will produce product.

a gankworthy freighter might not come through all day, and you produce nothing. you're comparing fixed costs to variable costs.


Quote:
The only risk is the loot fairy being evil. It puts the risk of gankinig on the same plane as PvEing for rare drops.



I admitted as much. I still think ganking is pretty risk free in the end.


All I am asking is that gankers admit they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel by claiming their play style is risky.


any playstyle is risky. this is eve. everything you do has a possibility of resulting in losing isk/time/etc and that possibility is quite simply risk.

saying something has no risk in this game is like saying "i don't need oxygen" it's both incorrect and stupid.
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#48 - 2012-11-03 22:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Katherine Devonshire
Dave stark wrote:
if you're going to carry cargo worth more than it costs to turn your ship to space dust it's only logical that you're going to end up as space dust.


And how much does it cost a ganker to turn a freighter into space dust?

Ah, I think I see the problem...

The sound of the Amarrian heart
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2012-11-03 22:05:14 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:



Predictable Operating costs do not meet my definition of Risk. It happens. If you do the math I bet you can even tell me how often it happens with relative accuracy. Not a risk.


Using your logic nothing is a risk if you chose to accept it.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-11-03 22:06:16 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Gankers just want their risk free money. Just be less efficient/use more freighters until they get bored.


And don't be a liar.

You can't tell us they want risk free money and then tell us you're not saying ganking isn't risk free.


That is exactly what you said!
Dave stark
#51 - 2012-11-03 22:06:39 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
if you're going to carry cargo worth more than it costs to turn your ship to space dust it's only logical that you're going to end up as space dust.


And how much does it cost a ganker to turn a freighter into space dust?

Ah, I think I see the problem...


i have no idea how much ehp a freighter has, or how much dps a cheap t3 battlecruiser can put out.

so, i don't know.
Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#52 - 2012-11-03 22:06:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jaison Savrin wrote:
If I run a company and I know that every single time I turn on a machine it will cost me $300 an hour to run it and I also know I need to run it for 5 hours a day to create a product then I know the cost will be 300*5 per day. It is not a "risk" that I will be charged $1,500 a day. It is an operating cost of running my business.
…and it's still a risk. If you want to put it in a different column because it helps with your auditing and planning, then good for you. What you call operating costs are simply risks you have accepted because you can easily calculate them and see that they are worth taking (hell, even required) as you can see that you'll earn them back in the end.

The simple fact remains: Risk = cost × probability, and it doesn't cease to be true just because the probability is 1 (largely because the probability is never 1).

But sure, let's presume that this isn't true. Let's instead change CONCORD so it only has a 1% response rate. That will massively increase the gankers' risk, right?




Tippa... Ugh, you're debate style is really annoying. All you try to do is divert the conversation by asking a question that has no solid bearing on the debate. I'll bite though...

Reducing CONCORD's response would reduce operating costs by making the gankers loose ships 1/100 of the time. It would be a reduction in operating costs. Percentages are hard, am I right?


In business (which Eve is not) Risk may be Cost * probability. I do not know. However, I am relatively sure that many Eve players would define risk differently.

For me risk is unpredictable factors which Ganking has very few of and those that are there can be easily calculated on simple probability based on the math the game is based on. It is relatively risk free.
Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#53 - 2012-11-03 22:09:04 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Gankers just want their risk free money. Just be less efficient/use more freighters until they get bored.


And don't be a liar.

You can't tell us they want risk free money and then tell us you're not saying ganking isn't risk free.


That is exactly what you said!



Poorly worded. Let me rephrase


Gankers want their relatively risk free money.
Dave stark
#54 - 2012-11-03 22:11:03 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Risk may be Cost * probability. I do not know.


so, you're openly admitting you don't know about the topic being discussed.

well...
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-11-03 22:11:03 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
if you're going to carry cargo worth more than it costs to turn your ship to space dust it's only logical that you're going to end up as space dust.


And how much does it cost a ganker to turn a freighter into space dust?

Ah, I think I see the problem...


i have no idea how much ehp a freighter has, or how much dps a cheap t3 battlecruiser can put out.

so, i don't know.

Over 130k EHP.

They do not require an insignificant investment to take down. Nor does the cost of a ship matter. Nothing is ballanced around "how much does it cost" to blow up another ship.


It was only a problem with the hulk becuse the hulk GUARANTEED a profit. It had nothing to do with any ship being profitable, it sure didn't have anything to do with a freighter loaded with billions of ISK in goods.

There is no profit unless the drop works out. That is working as intended, as is being able to blow up a freighter.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2012-11-03 22:11:28 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:



Poorly worded. Let me rephrase


Gankers want their relatively risk free money.


Because an escorting rook poses no risk at all!
Dave stark
#57 - 2012-11-03 22:13:07 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
if you're going to carry cargo worth more than it costs to turn your ship to space dust it's only logical that you're going to end up as space dust.


And how much does it cost a ganker to turn a freighter into space dust?

Ah, I think I see the problem...


i have no idea how much ehp a freighter has, or how much dps a cheap t3 battlecruiser can put out.

so, i don't know.

Over 130k EHP.

They do not require an insignificant investment to take down. Nor does the cost of a ship matter. Nothing is ballanced around "how much does it cost" to blow up another ship.


It was only a problem with the hulk becuse the hulk GUARANTEED a profit. It had nothing to do with any ship being profitable, it sure didn't have anything to do with a freighter loaded with billions of ISK in goods.

There is no profit unless the drop works out. That is working as intended, as is being able to blow up a freighter.


that's pitiful ehp, then again i guess you're paying 1.5bn isk for over 800k of cargo space, not an impregnable floating fortress.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-11-03 22:13:15 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Gankers just want their risk free money. Just be less efficient/use more freighters until they get bored.


And don't be a liar.

You can't tell us they want risk free money and then tell us you're not saying ganking isn't risk free.


That is exactly what you said!



Poorly worded. Let me rephrase


Gankers want their relatively risk free money.

That's better.

But guess who else?

Miners, they want their "relatively" risk free money.
PvEers, love thier "relatively" risk free money.
I love my "relatively" risk free manufacturing and market money.


However, only a ganker is ever guaranteed a loss.
Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#59 - 2012-11-03 22:13:43 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Jaison Savrin wrote:
Risk may be Cost * probability. I do not know.


so, you're openly admitting you don't know about the topic being discussed.

well...



In business (which Eve is not) Risk may be Cost * probability. I do not know.


Nice try on that. Selectively editing a post to try to prove a point does little more than prove that you do not have a strong basis for your argument and makes you look foolish. If you want to continue to try to disprove my point or change my opinion fine. However, don't make yourself look like an idiot in the process. It brings nothing to the debate of value.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-11-03 22:14:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
if you're going to carry cargo worth more than it costs to turn your ship to space dust it's only logical that you're going to end up as space dust.


And how much does it cost a ganker to turn a freighter into space dust?

Ah, I think I see the problem...


i have no idea how much ehp a freighter has, or how much dps a cheap t3 battlecruiser can put out.

so, i don't know.

Over 130k EHP.

They do not require an insignificant investment to take down. Nor does the cost of a ship matter. Nothing is ballanced around "how much does it cost" to blow up another ship.


It was only a problem with the hulk becuse the hulk GUARANTEED a profit. It had nothing to do with any ship being profitable, it sure didn't have anything to do with a freighter loaded with billions of ISK in goods.

There is no profit unless the drop works out. That is working as intended, as is being able to blow up a freighter.


that's pitiful ehp, then again i guess you're paying 1.5bn isk for over 800k of cargo space, not an impregnable floating fortress.

Bingo.

That still requires multiple ships, and the gankers aren't guanteed to make up the loss.