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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#221 - 2012-11-03 02:59:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

More common than you'd think. A lot of alliance leadership don't like it when they don't have supreme control over their members.


In all of my years in 0.0 I have seen many such alliances and all of them crumbled.

To be fair, the alliance I was in crumbled at the time as well. It's sort of getting on now under completely different operations, leadership, and without sov. Hint: it starts with an "U", ends with an "n" and they comes for their people.

The trouble is, small alliances simply cannot afford to not be "evil" about mandatory ops, because if they aren't mandatory, the "it's okay if I don't show up for this one, everyone else will" attitude will end up in a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons -- and the alliance kerplodes anyway.

It takes a special brand of leadership and motivation to get people going without holding a gun to their head, and unfortunately, the only place I've seen it really work in 0.0 is in CFC/HBC, where they have the numbers to be more lenient on "at-will" show-ups. As much disdain as I may have for ye olde random goon and his abilities in Eve, as a corp CEO I have all the respect for the cat-herding abilities of Goonswarm leadership.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#222 - 2012-11-03 03:26:37 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
It takes a special brand of leadership and motivation to get people going without holding a gun to their head, and unfortunately, the only place I've seen it really work in 0.0 is in CFC/HBC, where they have the numbers to be more lenient on "at-will" show-ups. As much disdain as I may have for ye olde random goon and his abilities in Eve, as a corp CEO I have all the respect for the cat-herding abilities of Goonswarm leadership.

It's also the case when a ~big thing~ occurs, everyone gets excited, even if we have to alarm clock for it.

And then we get blueballed because we're ~evil blobbers.


But still, sometimes you get great fun like when we went to shoot that IRC CSAA. Good stuff.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#223 - 2012-11-03 06:42:02 UTC
White Quake wrote:
pvp alliances want people in null, do u protect the pve pilots? no? u ridicule them and wonder why they stay in empire

go figure....


Why do nullsec alliances want PvE pilots?
Ghazu
#224 - 2012-11-03 07:57:13 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
White Quake wrote:
pvp alliances want people in null, do u protect the pve pilots? no? u ridicule them and wonder why they stay in empire

go figure....


Why do nullsec alliances want PvE pilots?

OP thinks PVE wins wars.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#225 - 2012-11-03 09:21:46 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
White Quake wrote:
pvp alliances want people in null, do u protect the pve pilots? no? u ridicule them and wonder why they stay in empire

go figure....


Why do nullsec alliances want PvE pilots?

OP thinks PVE wins wars.



Ghazu thinks PVP constructs ships.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#226 - 2012-11-03 09:24:42 UTC
Kult Altol thinks PvE constructs ships.
Ghazu
#227 - 2012-11-03 10:04:57 UTC
Kult Altol wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
White Quake wrote:
pvp alliances want people in null, do u protect the pve pilots? no? u ridicule them and wonder why they stay in empire

go figure....


Why do nullsec alliances want PvE pilots?

OP thinks PVE wins wars.



Ghazu thinks PVP constructs ships.

LOL

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

White Quake
Doomheim
#228 - 2012-11-03 10:21:21 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Kult Altol wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
White Quake wrote:
pvp alliances want people in null, do u protect the pve pilots? no? u ridicule them and wonder why they stay in empire

go figure....


Why do nullsec alliances want PvE pilots?

OP thinks PVE wins wars.



Ghazu thinks PVP constructs ships.

LOL


What you *loling* at? Or in your world do pvp pilots when fighting wear harry potter robes and make ships spin out of thin air?

ALAKAZAM
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#229 - 2012-11-03 10:26:44 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

More common than you'd think. A lot of alliance leadership don't like it when they don't have supreme control over their members.


In all of my years in 0.0 I have seen many such alliances and all of them crumbled.

To be fair, the alliance I was in crumbled at the time as well. It's sort of getting on now under completely different operations, leadership, and without sov. Hint: it starts with an "U", ends with an "n" and they comes for their people.

The trouble is, small alliances simply cannot afford to not be "evil" about mandatory ops, because if they aren't mandatory, the "it's okay if I don't show up for this one, everyone else will" attitude will end up in a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons -- and the alliance kerplodes anyway.

It takes a special brand of leadership and motivation to get people going without holding a gun to their head, and unfortunately, the only place I've seen it really work in 0.0 is in CFC/HBC, where they have the numbers to be more lenient on "at-will" show-ups. As much disdain as I may have for ye olde random goon and his abilities in Eve, as a corp CEO I have all the respect for the cat-herding abilities of Goonswarm leadership.


I have been part of a good few 0.0 small bodies over the years and just about all of them didnt go down the CTA route. Your right in that it does need a good leadership.

Ghazu
#230 - 2012-11-03 10:27:47 UTC
Yeah, our persecution of pve duders have resulted in inudstry coming to a crashing halt, literally nothing for sale in Jita.
Aint it amazing what people do for thin margins?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#231 - 2012-11-03 10:28:42 UTC
wow, this thread has taught me that you're either a "pvp pilot" or "pve pilot" in eve online

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#232 - 2012-11-03 10:53:54 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
funrollloops wrote:
To be honest, I just don't really trust miners. I don't believe anyone finds mining fun, so what the hell are they doing? They're definitely up to something (at least the ones that aren't bots). I wish they'd find something else to do besides hanging around the asteroid belts in their odd looking barges gibbering weirdly and using their perverted weaponry to shoot space rocks.


James summed it up well a while ago: Miners strive to NOT play the game and to instead be bots. I'll try and find the post, it was one of his big threadnaughts about ganking miners from last year


Miners strive to play something allowed by the EULA. As such as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#233 - 2012-11-03 10:57:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
funrollloops wrote:
To be honest, I just don't really trust miners. I don't believe anyone finds mining fun, so what the hell are they doing? They're definitely up to something (at least the ones that aren't bots). I wish they'd find something else to do besides hanging around the asteroid belts in their odd looking barges gibbering weirdly and using their perverted weaponry to shoot space rocks.


James summed it up well a while ago: Miners strive to NOT play the game and to instead be bots. I'll try and find the post, it was one of his big threadnaughts about ganking miners from last year


Miners strive to play something allowed by the EULA. As such as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.


Suicide gankers and bumpers strive to play something allowed by the EULA. Therefore, as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2012-11-03 10:59:14 UTC
Andski wrote:
wow, this thread has taught me that you're either a "pvp pilot" or "pve pilot" in eve online


unfortunatly it seems to be the major consent that we all can agree on.
if it was that easy then eve would have failed i guess.

especially funny for me is the fact that elitist pvp pilots or those who think of themselves that way clearly state "nerf highsec, get rid of carebears" and what not, but seem to have ABSOLUTELY no clue in how to balance out the loss of indy power that would mean for the game, their alliances and wars.

seems to me like this: even the biggest and best organized alliances do their main indy stuff in high because of said reasons (logistics, infrastructure, you named it all blah)

the memebers of those exact alliances whine about how highsec needs to get nerfed... errm. either you guys dont talk to each other or your whole group is kinda schizophrenic.

i say it again: the mechanics ingame are there. even though some stuff defo needs to be tweaked (corp / alliance use of pos infrastructure, corp-wide / alliance wide use of PI, sov mechanics-although i dont have to clue why and how but it comes up again and again)
if the corps and alliances would try to establish and improve infrastructure and indy possibilities in low / null, way way more people would go there.
as it comes to tweaks improving infrastructure in null without nerfing high:
what about more player owned stations possible per system? it would allow market and indy systems in well protected areas of space, lessen the risk for indy players while offering the same possibilities as in high (slots for stuff to build / research)

the galaxy in eve in total has become so small in the way it is just too easy to get into highsec to buy / get / build the stuff you want and get back to null that location basically matters not anymore. same with fleet warfare. thouands of people eploy for constellations and regions in a matter of minutes. dont get me wrong, i know it takes effort to establish a jump network of titans and scouts and cynos and ****, but still its way to easy. thats just my opinion.
if that would be harder, we would see less blobbing, more small gang warfare, more ways tofight and blow each other up. all spread out over a lot more areas and space. might be that i am wrong on it, but thats what i would loook into. plus the station tweak. plus general attitude of elitist pvp pilots. just think about where you get your ships from and please dont say "from jita" or "my corpmates". think about where they built that **** before you say something like "nerf highsec, carebears suck".



Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#235 - 2012-11-03 11:00:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Miners strive to play something allowed by the EULA. As such as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.

That's a pretty common misconception. They're actually only allowed to do what other players allow them to do.
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2012-11-03 11:00:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
funrollloops wrote:
To be honest, I just don't really trust miners. I don't believe anyone finds mining fun, so what the hell are they doing? They're definitely up to something (at least the ones that aren't bots). I wish they'd find something else to do besides hanging around the asteroid belts in their odd looking barges gibbering weirdly and using their perverted weaponry to shoot space rocks.


James summed it up well a while ago: Miners strive to NOT play the game and to instead be bots. I'll try and find the post, it was one of his big threadnaughts about ganking miners from last year


Miners strive to play something allowed by the EULA. As such as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.



err. either i misread the "in dont trust miners " post and thought there was irony in there when there was not, or someone else got it the wrong way
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2012-11-03 11:06:51 UTC
what i see is the same discussion one can hear in nearly all kinds of companies in all kinds of sectors of business in real life. who is more important ? the sales rep or the developer programming what was sold ?
who is more important ? the architect or the construction worker when it comes to building a house ?#

guys, wake up. you need both. you always will.
miners need indy players to sell / use what they mine. indy players need pve / pvp players to sell what they produce.
pvp / pve pilots need indy (yes, also miners) to be able to buy what they need for their (war) efforts.

i think one reason people try to get on the miners especially might be to drive up pries for their own toons. or just because it used to be easier to gank miners / indy players in general than other pvp elitist players because they seem to almost never shoot back ...

when someone kills / ganks more indy players on aregular basis than he does kill other military / pvp players i tend to seriously doubt their abilitiy / motivation to do actual real pvp , thus risking to eventually lose.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#238 - 2012-11-03 11:13:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Not speaking of industrialists only. I have been called a "pathetic carebear" when I didn't show up to super-restrictive AHAC fleets, and have been told to train "real ships" and to stop being useless upon not being able to fly a high-skilled Guardian or T2-gunned battleship... 9 months into the game.

Also I have been in situations of "there is a CTA on; either get in fleet and show up, or log off". It's not very pleasant, and it's not something Goons go through.


Sounds like a terrible alliance TBH.


Every single corp and alliance every of my TONS of alts have been, were exactly like that if not worse.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#239 - 2012-11-03 11:18:22 UTC
Andski wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Miners strive to play something allowed by the EULA. As such as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.


Suicide gankers and bumpers strive to play something allowed by the EULA. Therefore, as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.


Did I say anything about that? No. So don't pretend to put words I did not even think.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#240 - 2012-11-03 11:19:50 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Miners strive to play something allowed by the EULA. As such as long as they don't cheat, they are free to do whatever and however they want.

That's a pretty common misconception. They're actually only allowed to do what other players allow them to do.


Then, those who are not fine allowing them to sit there have just to stop whining and go fix it.