These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Why have the guns all the same?

Author
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#1 - 2012-11-02 19:22:25 UTC
It seems that the common thought is to have all the weapons (guns) be the same.
I am guessing that that is so they can be grouped together on one button.
But in every situation i have been in there is always something that needs shooting at long range and at the same time there is a target in under the long range guns that is being a nuisance.
Drones when available are helpful but i am finding that having both long range (artillery) and short range (auto-cannon) guns fitted in pairs seems to work in most situations better.
By grouping in pairs it helps to prevent an overkill on one target and make a faster move on the next.
But with so many saying all the guns should be the same i can't help but wonder if i am missing something.

Can anyone help?

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-11-02 19:25:37 UTC
You're missing something. If you fit both long and short range at the same time, you'll never being doing optimal damage from all your weapons -- if you're close, your long range guns will be useless and if you're far away, your short range guns will be useless.

The answer is to dictate range -- you decide how far you want to be from the rats and stay there. Fit an AB and MWD. Orbit if you'd like. Find the ideal range for your weapon system and stay there. Then fit all short- or long-range guns and watch them all work together.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#3 - 2012-11-02 19:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
Unless you know you will be facing weak targets at both range and close up, it is much more efficient to use one or the other and switch ammo types.

However, mixed gun setups tend to = loss mails, so its a pretty bad idea outside of some specific missions.

Edit: I would be glad to test this with you. Pick the ships, I'll take the same gun setup, you can have split guns.Smile
Rezig Huruta
Fiction.
BlackRose.
#4 - 2012-11-02 19:35:24 UTC
I'm guessing the OP is talking about PVE primarily.

As far as that goes, fit your ship how you like. This is a game for you to enjoy.

In PVP, you'll want to fit your ship for that properly.
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#5 - 2012-11-02 19:42:36 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
You're missing something. If you fit both long and short range at the same time, you'll never being doing optimal damage from all your weapons -- if you're close, your long range guns will be useless and if you're far away, your short range guns will be useless.

The answer is to dictate range -- you decide how far you want to be from the rats and stay there. Fit an AB and MWD. Orbit if you'd like. Find the ideal range for your weapon system and stay there. Then fit all short- or long-range guns and watch them all work together.


But how can you dictate range against multiple targets. Especially when webs become involved. By the time i am able to brake the web it seems that i have to take a pounding to burn into range of the next target. I have to work in falloff most all of the time.
If i try to work in optimal, i die alot.

Maybe i need advise for how to do that.
I have tried angling in, angling out, I have tried burning straight in and straight away.
There are so many variable is each situation.

How are you able to dictate range with any regularity?

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Cap James Tkirk
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-11-02 19:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cap James Tkirk
what ship are you using?
which rats are you shooting at?
what fit are you using?
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#7 - 2012-11-02 19:57:49 UTC
Rezig Huruta wrote:
I'm guessing the OP is talking about PVE primarily.

As far as that goes, fit your ship how you like. This is a game for you to enjoy.

In PVP, you'll want to fit your ship for that properly.


I suppose i am talking about PVE primarily.
But if i knew what you thought a properly fit ship would have, then i would have an advantage and be able to counter that fit.
That is, if you had short guns, I would want to not allow you to get close and shoot you from a distance.
But what if i screw up and you are able to get in under my long guns then what do i do if you get close.
I die, of course.
I suspect there may be not options but i thought i would ask.

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Rezig Huruta
Fiction.
BlackRose.
#8 - 2012-11-02 20:05:10 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
Rezig Huruta wrote:
I'm guessing the OP is talking about PVE primarily.

As far as that goes, fit your ship how you like. This is a game for you to enjoy.

In PVP, you'll want to fit your ship for that properly.


I suppose i am talking about PVE primarily.
But if i knew what you thought a properly fit ship would have, then i would have an advantage and be able to counter that fit.
That is, if you had short guns, I would want to not allow you to get close and shoot you from a distance.
But what if i screw up and you are able to get in under my long guns then what do i do if you get close.
I die, of course.
I suspect there may be not options but i thought i would ask.


Yes. In PVP if you are 100% long range and I get my ACs under your guns you die.
In PVP if you are 50% long and 50% short, if I get under your long guns with my shorts, you die.
If you kite me at long range with your 50% long, you're doing only half damage which means: you've given me twice the amount of time to close on you, or escape.

If I'm arty fit, you'll die because you're doing 50% damage.

If you KNEW I was coming at you with short range ship, you'd go for 100% long guns and speed to kite me. So, when I say "properly" I meant "PVP properly", with either a scram, disruptor, etc - and a rack of similar guns.

In PVE, I've flow plenty of ships with varying weaponry, and usually it just wasn't as efficient as all sames. And that's too bad, because I like the idea of varying weapon types - such as a dessie with two arties and the rest shorts. Ah... blah blah blah.

In PVE fit what you like and what feels best for you. That's my main point. PVP is a different beast. Fit accordingly.
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#9 - 2012-11-02 20:06:07 UTC
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
what ship are you using?
which rats are you shooting at?
what fit are you using?


Actually, i am using this across the board.

I have a Loki with 4 650's and two 425's
and a Hurricane with the same.

I have a navy faction tempest with four 1200's and two 800's
and a Maelstrom, tornado and tempest fit the same.

It is not any specific fit that i am looking for but more why it is considered bad.

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Cap James Tkirk
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-11-02 20:11:30 UTC
well in most PvE situations the rats are pretty predictable IE the frigs close within 10km the cruisers stay at 15 then teh BS break into groups some try to hump your hull and others stay the hell out orbits.

generally you want all the same gun type IE short/long to maximize your DPS

my alt is an AC queen near max skilled so his autos hit out far enough on missions to get the BS at 50km if i dont burn them down this also allows me to melt cruisers that get close and touch me

i usually leave frigs for drones

the primary reason it is bad is
range differences
ROF
Skills
fitting Reqs

on the Cane if you want the dps and have skills use missles to match your guns IE short/long range

i have tried the mix gun types it is just not worth it like already stated you get half dps at different ranges instead of maxxing on a set of skills/gear
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#11 - 2012-11-02 20:30:25 UTC
Rezig Huruta wrote:
Bud Austrene wrote:
Rezig Huruta wrote:
I'm guessing the OP is talking about PVE primarily.

As far as that goes, fit your ship how you like. This is a game for you to enjoy.

In PVP, you'll want to fit your ship for that properly.


I suppose i am talking about PVE primarily.
But if i knew what you thought a properly fit ship would have, then i would have an advantage and be able to counter that fit.
That is, if you had short guns, I would want to not allow you to get close and shoot you from a distance.
But what if i screw up and you are able to get in under my long guns then what do i do if you get close.
I die, of course.
I suspect there may be not options but i thought i would ask.


Yes. In PVP if you are 100% long range and I get my ACs under your guns you die.
In PVP if you are 50% long and 50% short, if I get under your long guns with my shorts, you die.
If you kite me at long range with your 50% long, you're doing only half damage which means: you've given me twice the amount of time to close on you, or escape.

If I'm arty fit, you'll die because you're doing 50% damage.

If you KNEW I was coming at you with short range ship, you'd go for 100% long guns and speed to kite me. So, when I say "properly" I meant "PVP properly", with either a scram, disruptor, etc - and a rack of similar guns.

In PVE, I've flow plenty of ships with varying weaponry, and usually it just wasn't as efficient as all sames. And that's too bad, because I like the idea of varying weapon types - such as a dessie with two arties and the rest shorts. Ah... blah blah blah.

In PVE fit what you like and what feels best for you. That's my main point. PVP is a different beast. Fit accordingly.


Thank you, I suspected that the all one type of gun was a primarily PVP fit.
I really have no interest in being a hunter in PVP but would like to know if there is something that can be done to save my ass if i get jumped.

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Rezig Huruta
Fiction.
BlackRose.
#12 - 2012-11-02 20:39:32 UTC
Don't get jumped. The best way to NOT get jumped is to keep your eye on D-Scan while in low sec. D-Scan + Local is your best friend and best defense against any roaming PVP hunters.

If you DO get jumped and you are warp disrupted/scrammed, FIGHT. Many people that get jumped panic and don't really fight back too much (because they're suddenly thrust in a situation they weren't prepared for and they fumble their mouse/keyboard). Fight back immediately and maybe you'll win.
Cap James Tkirk
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-11-02 20:42:43 UTC
"or maybe just maybe me and my boys are chinese jet pilots"
ash- Army of Darkness
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#14 - 2012-11-02 21:10:44 UTC
Rezig Huruta wrote:
Don't get jumped. The best way to NOT get jumped is to keep your eye on D-Scan while in low sec. D-Scan + Local is your best friend and best defense against any roaming PVP hunters.

If you DO get jumped and you are warp disrupted/scrammed, FIGHT. Many people that get jumped panic and don't really fight back too much (because they're suddenly thrust in a situation they weren't prepared for and they fumble their mouse/keyboard). Fight back immediately and maybe you'll win.


I take it this would be an endorsement for all short guns if i am in a situation that might turn PVP.

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2012-11-02 21:24:23 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
Rezig Huruta wrote:
Don't get jumped. The best way to NOT get jumped is to keep your eye on D-Scan while in low sec. D-Scan + Local is your best friend and best defense against any roaming PVP hunters.

If you DO get jumped and you are warp disrupted/scrammed, FIGHT. Many people that get jumped panic and don't really fight back too much (because they're suddenly thrust in a situation they weren't prepared for and they fumble their mouse/keyboard). Fight back immediately and maybe you'll win.


I take it this would be an endorsement for all short guns if i am in a situation that might turn PVP.


'kiting' is a common and popular PvP tactic

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kosetzu
Aeons Multiplied
#16 - 2012-11-02 23:01:46 UTC
You should look at what type of weapon you use before you start thinking about optimal/falloff. Using projectiles you are meant to fight in your falloff.

A simple way to know if you are doing good/decent damage is optimal + around half falloff. Split ranges on weapons are bad because it gives you low damage output at all ranges. Drones are generally only for frigs and cruisers unless you fly a ship that relies on drones for their main damage output.

You always want to be able to dictate range generally, either keeping away from the target you're shooting or getting up close and personal. While keeping at range from the rats can mitigate some of their damage you should primarily be concerned about your distance to the target you are shooting.

Eve survival is a good site to check out if you're uncertain about any mission. It's not the most up to date anymore, but most of the information is still correct. You'll find what range the different rats orbit at and their damage types as well there. For example: Angel Cartel gets up close in Autocannon range, while Guristas usually stay at range where Artillery can track them.

Warp scrambling frigates is usually the first rats you want to blow up, and webbing rats if you need to control your range.
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-11-03 09:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tao Dolcino
There is a way to get two different kind of weapons and to be effective : drones.
Fit all the same turrets/launchers, long or short, on your ship, and then keep 1-2 flights of light dornes to take care of the frigates. Another advantage with drones is that you can vary the damages and the sizes.

Edit : by the way, light drones are a good way to fast get rid of a stasis tower or web/damp/TP/etc... frigs, provided that you have the right skills to target from afar and control your drones to the same distance. The skill to make your drones travel faster is also a +
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-11-03 11:31:47 UTC
One thing about PVE is that you can research situations and learn about what sort of enemies you'll be facing; that way, you can refit your ship as necessary. If you're a mission runner, for example, you'll want to maximize your short-range firepower against the Angel Cartel, which likes to fly close and will get under your long-range guns, while you'll want longer-range weaponry against the Guristas, who will tend to stand off well beyond the reach of your short-range weapons. Mix your guns, and like they said above, you're throwing away half your damage potential no matter what you're facing, which is not good against enemies with regenerating tanks - cut your DPS in half and you'll find the rats tanking your damage outright. Even if you're able to break their tanks, it's horribly inefficient; the alternate guns are just wasting CPU, powergrid, and turret slots.

And I'm sorry, but the thought of someone who's put mixed weapons on a Loki, a Tempest Fleet Issue, and a Maelstrom makes me want to go cry in my beer. That's just a waste of expensive hulls. And I'm afraid to ask how those ships are tanked.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#19 - 2012-11-03 14:13:11 UTC
It's all about min/maxing. Although, I personally think all ships should have a primary and secondary weapon class.

Exampoc:

Apocalypse Now:

8 Turrets, 2 Launchers

Apocalypse Later:

8 Turrets (4 100% Role Bonused Large, and 4 50% Role Bonused Medium).

But I think I'm a minority in this thinking.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Ginger Barbarella
#20 - 2012-11-03 16:31:53 UTC
In the beginning, I didn't get it either. Fit one set for long range, one for the inevitable frigates that get in close. But after a while you get it. You learn what it means to keep something at-range. You learn the benefits of a single, solitary weapon system. I've started playing again with mixed weapon systems recently (like the Scythe Fleet for COSMOS missions or the Typhoon for playing around in L4's); not sure what I think about it now. Learn to keep targets at range and use the weapons for that range, and you'll see how much more efficient you can kill.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

12Next page