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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#5781 - 2012-11-02 10:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Ups.
But even with the 425mm, railguns are underrepresented.
But what I see is that half of the s... in the list is Minmatar weapons.

Edit: about cruise missiles. They are even unnerving in PVE because of flight time. With that flight time nobody will really use it good in PVP. Forget it. Completely. CCP can buff the hell out of the dmg on cruises. The flight time makes them bah.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5782 - 2012-11-02 11:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
So sweat : another two days set of statistics which absolutely don't mean anything relevant.

PS : please, don't do it one more time on the second of december, it's a very bad joke.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5783 - 2012-11-02 12:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
ACs need a nerf


Because even HPL Harbinger outdamages 425mm Cane at 15+ km?
That's 1 damage bonus vs. 2 damage bonuses.

They are already planning tweaks to TEs. Depending on how they nerf TEs this could be a big hit to AC performance.
Lili Lu
#5784 - 2012-11-02 12:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Cazador 64 wrote:
1 425mm AutoCannon II 1580
2 Heavy Missile Launcher II 1070
3 200mm AutoCannon II 854
4 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 801
5 425mm Railgun II 734
6 150mm Light AutoCannon II 723
7 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 547
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 519
9 Light Neutron Blaster II 517
10 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 501
11 Mega Pulse Laser II 475
12 650mm Artillery Cannon II 387
13 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 378
14 Heavy Pulse Laser II 335
15 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 320
16 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 308
17 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 301
18 Light Ion Blaster II 300
19 800mm Repeating Artillery II 288
20 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun 265

This is Right off eve kill NOV 2 2012 5:44 AM est
This is clear cut proof 425mm Autocannon II are grossly Over powered and need to be nerfed right away !!.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Ok, Cazador. You really need to preface your citation with the qualifier that it is less than two days worth of data for the whole month of 30 days. Since the patch isn't coming til Dec 4 or thereabouts, I highly doubt this coming month's stats will differ much from all the prior months for the last 3 years. It will be HML II and Drakes back on top by the end of the month. Need Moar Data Points P

As for 425mm AC II, you apparently missed the Cane nerf. We will see how they and the Drake do in December. Regardless as I, Takeshi or Jorma are saying, and the devs have hinted, a TE nerf may be coming sometime "soon" after December. This will cut into AC power and usage.

The biggest point is this data (by the end of the month) will do absolutely nothing to invalidate the HM nerf. CCP cannot balance the game on one months data. You have to have been following these stats over multiple months. And in that view they have been very consistent that HML IIs have been walking all over any other weapon and certainly well over any other MEDIUM LONG RANGE WEAPON.

To respond to a nerf with "oh yeah well his weapon should be nerfed even more" is really rather weak argumentation. And, again you are mixing apples and oranges also. 425mm AC are short range weapons.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#5785 - 2012-11-02 13:02:48 UTC
The change is NOT going to hurt the autocannon-shield-Hurricane, but artillery WILL be MUCH more difficult to fit.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5786 - 2012-11-02 13:57:11 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
The change is NOT going to hurt the autocannon-shield-Hurricane, but artillery WILL be MUCH more difficult to fit.



despite of course the across the board reduction in arty fitting \o/

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#5787 - 2012-11-02 13:58:50 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
The change is NOT going to hurt the autocannon-shield-Hurricane, but artillery WILL be MUCH more difficult to fit.



despite of course the across the board reduction in arty fitting \o/


pwned :)
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5788 - 2012-11-02 14:02:13 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
The change is NOT going to hurt the autocannon-shield-Hurricane, but artillery WILL be MUCH more difficult to fit.



despite of course the across the board reduction in arty fitting \o/


You will need rigs or a RCU in the lows plus downgrading your LSE to make 720's fit with no other mods in the highs.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5789 - 2012-11-02 14:25:44 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Quote:
1 425mm AutoCannon II 1580
2 Heavy Missile Launcher II 1070
3 200mm AutoCannon II 854
4 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 801
5 425mm Railgun II 734
6 150mm Light AutoCannon II 723
7 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 547
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 519
9 Light Neutron Blaster II 517
10 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 501
11 Mega Pulse Laser II 475
12 650mm Artillery Cannon II 387
13 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 378
14 Heavy Pulse Laser II 335
15 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 320
16 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 308
17 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 301
18 Light Ion Blaster II 300
19 800mm Repeating Artillery II 288
20 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun 265

This is Right off eve kill NOV 2 2012 5:44 AM est
This is clear cut proof 425mm Autocannon II are grossly Over powered and need to be nerfed right away !!.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20


ACs need a nerf and Minmatar arty alpha too.
Miss RAILGUNS here completely. Really asking myself how long it will take that CCP sees they need a buff?
They would really deserve it.
I never understand the issue with the Tengu.
Yes they are really good but for pure PVP and gate camping the Loki is far better. And suprinsingly nobody whines about it.
Tengu actually get an uber nerf but whats with Loki?
Minmatar actually have a gate camp monopol with best alpha PLUS best scan resolution. You want a good gate camp? -> You need Minmatar ships.
1vs1 Lokis are fearsome like hell and will eat most Legions, Tengus and Proteus.
Seems CCP wants to castrate caldari and forgets Minmatar.
When you are really starting some balancing (okay a little nerf to HMs is okay) then don´t forget ACs, arty aplha and the Loki.
Sorry but actually that´s too hard for caldari.
The Tengu and drake (not counting in frigs here, caldari ones are great) were the only one caldari PVP ships.
Now they will have... erm wolfpack only and a hard to fit HAM caracal, while drake will be the new maller with this nerf.
Great tank and no damage.
It would be good to switch the drakes ship bouses to the same the caracal will have when you introduce the new missile stuff. You are already nerfing cane (good job) so change also drake bonuses.
Otherwise Drake will be dead.


disagree with yah here last test on duality i built a ham cara i had no fitting issues what so ever infact i stuggled on what i should be fitting on the last low slot so i would have to disagree with you here.
MeowMix1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5790 - 2012-11-02 14:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: MeowMix1
Lili Lu wrote:
Aw, poor meowmix. Don't worry, there are plenty of narrow sighted people itt that have been upset with the changes. But, more importantly, don't you read? Roll


I know you are not supposed to feed the trolls but let's give Lili the benefit of the doubt one more time.

I totally agree with the original proposed Missile nerfs and other changes. I just don't think they go far enough. CCP has stated time and time again that they are opposed to power creep and want the game totally balanced. They admonish players to be bold.

All I want from CCP is to be bold! Get rid of carebears (I'm a carebear myself) and bots and make at least non-capital ships balanced. Also, I want to see CCP's profits increase from sale of PLEX.

Why are you against such simple changes that are for the good of the game?

PS I have been an active player since March 2009 and run missions in Golem, Rattlesnake and Tengu. All the changes I want are totally contrary to the way I play the game and are to my detriment. How about what you are advocating?
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#5791 - 2012-11-02 14:35:32 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
Literally, by his definition, Kinetic damage bonus is the weakest in game... so how does a Sac with a 25% RoF bonus.... the 2nd best possible damage bonus in game appear so weak within it's class using HML's....


Maybe it's because the Sacrilege has a damage bonus only to HAMs.

The Nighthawk has always been gimped due to fitting issues.

The Cerberus has more range than is realistically useful in 99% of situations (who needs 189km range on HMLs?) . Essentially the ship has only 3 useful bonuses.

Does this answer your question how these ships are not overpowered despite HMLs being supposedly overpowered?



No, b/c you go by his definition... a ship with one uber damage bonus with an OP weapon system should matter... hence the omni ROF bonus. Saying 3 useful bonuses on the Cerb is like saying 3 useful bonuses on the Zealot.... oh wait.

In neither case does the ship even appear slightly OP.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5792 - 2012-11-02 14:38:46 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:
1 425mm AutoCannon II 1580
2 Heavy Missile Launcher II 1070
3 200mm AutoCannon II 854
4 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 801
5 425mm Railgun II 734
6 150mm Light AutoCannon II 723
7 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 547
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 519
9 Light Neutron Blaster II 517
10 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 501
11 Mega Pulse Laser II 475
12 650mm Artillery Cannon II 387
13 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 378
14 Heavy Pulse Laser II 335
15 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 320
16 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 308
17 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 301
18 Light Ion Blaster II 300
19 800mm Repeating Artillery II 288
20 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun 265

This is Right off eve kill NOV 2 2012 5:44 AM est
This is clear cut proof 425mm Autocannon II are grossly Over powered and need to be nerfed right away !!.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Ok, Cazador. You really need to preface your citation with the qualifier that it is less than two days worth of data for the whole month of 30 days. Since the patch isn't coming til Dec 4 or thereabouts, I highly doubt this coming month's stats will differ much from all the prior months for the last 3 years. It will be HML II and Drakes back on top by the end of the month. Need Moar Data Points P

As for 425mm AC II, you apparently missed the Cane nerf. We will see how they and the Drake do in December. Regardless as I, Takeshi or Jorma are saying, and the devs have hinted, a TE nerf may be coming sometime "soon" after December. This will cut into AC power and usage.

The biggest point is this data (by the end of the month) will do absolutely nothing to invalidate the HM nerf. CCP cannot balance the game on one months data. You have to have been following these stats over multiple months. And in that view they have been very consistent that HML IIs have been walking all over any other weapon and certainly well over any other MEDIUM LONG RANGE WEAPON.

To respond to a nerf with "oh yeah well his weapon should be nerfed even more" is really rather weak argumentation. And, again you are mixing apples and oranges also. 425mm AC are short range weapons.


yes a cane is being nerfed but only to the point of having same pg and cpu in line with other bc witch you know is the argument for the missle nerf. but anyways we will keep it to current and not start an arguement.

what the above shows is t2 hml launchers and t1 torps a hugh amount of the rest is dominated by minmatar so 2 out of 20 are missle launchers and acs do claim the top by a fair amount.

i have no doubt this will change and am not putting this up against a defence but it is down on paper as everything else is down on paper (seams the way people like it paper stats) so you know it kinda invaladates the point of hml being over powerd. especialy when you look at the gap between 1 and 2 then at gap between 2 and 3
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5793 - 2012-11-02 14:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
So sweat : another two days set of statistics which absolutely don't mean anything relevant.

PS : please, don't do it one more time on the second of december, it's a very bad joke.



I love it how when Lili Lu posts some statistics that has missiles/drake seemingly in top of the usage as backing their arguments, but when Cazador 64 does this it's suddenly completely irrelevant

Wonder if someone's here are flying minnies & using ac's...
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5794 - 2012-11-02 14:53:02 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
So sweat : another two days set of statistics which absolutely don't mean anything relevant.

PS : please, don't do it one more time on the second of december, it's a very bad joke.



I love it how when Lili Lu posts some statistics that has missiles/drake seemingly in top of the usage as backing their arguments, but when Cazador 64 does this it's suddenly completely irrelevant

Wonder if someone's here are flying minnies & using ac's...



More likely that a trend after 30 days means a LOT more than the 2 day one presented?

Naaaaaaaaah it's totally a conspiracy......


psssst: Same thing happened last month.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5795 - 2012-11-02 15:05:39 UTC
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Quote:

1 425mm AutoCannon II 1580
2 Heavy Missile Launcher II 1070
3 200mm AutoCannon II 854
4 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 801
5 425mm Railgun II 734
6 150mm Light AutoCannon II 723
7 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 547
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 519
9 Light Neutron Blaster II 517
10 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 501
[...]

ACs need a nerf and Minmatar arty alpha too.
Miss RAILGUNS here completely. Really asking myself how long it will take that CCP sees they need a buff?


I highlighted two things for you.


That's 734 out of 7855. Or 9.3% of total. Yeah, Rails are just fine... Roll
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#5796 - 2012-11-02 15:09:33 UTC
It also doesn't show how many of those AC kills are supported by dual medium neuts (a specific fit targeted by the 'cane nerf).

Since this set of changes hits the Dual-neut 425 AC 'cane and the HML Drake pretty much equally, I don't think we are looking at any serious bias here. If anything it might make the Cyclone a more popular choice for PvP.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5797 - 2012-11-02 15:14:28 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
So sweat : another two days set of statistics which absolutely don't mean anything relevant.

PS : please, don't do it one more time on the second of december, it's a very bad joke.



I love it how when Lili Lu posts some statistics that has missiles/drake seemingly in top of the usage as backing their arguments, but when Cazador 64 does this it's suddenly completely irrelevant

Wonder if someone's here are flying minnies & using ac's...



More likely that a trend after 30 days means a LOT more than the 2 day one presented?

Naaaaaaaaah it's totally a conspiracy......


psssst: Same thing happened last month.


While I agree the stats after 2 days are not really a hot thing the point is dear Lili missed to post the end of the month weapons list and the entire top 20 ships in last month. And not only me thinks this is not a smart way to use stats .. when its so obvious what you try to hide :D
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5798 - 2012-11-02 15:16:14 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
So sweat : another two days set of statistics which absolutely don't mean anything relevant.

PS : please, don't do it one more time on the second of december, it's a very bad joke.



I love it how when Lili Lu posts some statistics that has missiles/drake seemingly in top of the usage as backing their arguments, but when Cazador 64 does this it's suddenly completely irrelevant

Wonder if someone's here are flying minnies & using ac's...



More likely that a trend after 30 days means a LOT more than the 2 day one presented?

Naaaaaaaaah it's totally a conspiracy......


psssst: Same thing happened last month.


Still for some reason some people went with canes instead of drakes that have about half the ehp and sucky effective range compared to OP Drake and HM's.

Yes, i do agree HM's are currently slightly OP when you look at the stats, but take Drake & Tengu out of the game and they wouldn't be used anywhere, why?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5799 - 2012-11-02 15:23:05 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
So sweat : another two days set of statistics which absolutely don't mean anything relevant.

PS : please, don't do it one more time on the second of december, it's a very bad joke.



I love it how when Lili Lu posts some statistics that has missiles/drake seemingly in top of the usage as backing their arguments, but when Cazador 64 does this it's suddenly completely irrelevant

Wonder if someone's here are flying minnies & using ac's...

I'll try to put it simply : you took TWO DAYS of statistics.

It happens that, by an extraodinary coincidence, Goons and the NC. decided to fight yesterday night. I'm sure that was only to make your stats wrong and unuasable, but here we are : they happily blow eachother up, and as there was on the the field some fleets of Rokh, Abaddon, Mael, Drakes, Zealots and a few hurricanes, here are your statistics. Of course, you know that rapier are part of a lot of BS fleets, hence some more projectiles to the set.

Here is a BR for you :
http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?br=http%3A%2F%2Feve-kill.net%2F%3Fa%3Dkill_related%26kll_id%3D15046836&Nulli_Secunda=red&Northern_Coalition_=red&Intrepid_Crossing=red&RAZOR_Alliance=blue&Fidelas_Constans=blue&Fatal_Ascension=blue&Goonswarm_Federation=blue&Executive_Outcomes=blue&Mordus_Angels=blue&Get_Off_My_Lawn=blue&Circle_Of_Two=blue&SpaceMonkey_s_Alliance=blue&Gentlemen_s_Agreement=blue&Tactical_Narcotics_Team=blue&C_NVICTED=blue&The_Retirement_Club=red#assign

Oh, and did you see the ships rebalance occuring these days ? They are nerfing the hurricane, and the other ships (T1 cruisers and frigates) are gonna be on the level of the winmatar ships. Isn't it somewhat what you wanted ?

You know, you should learn to use statistics before trying to use them. It's a sharp sword.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5800 - 2012-11-02 16:10:54 UTC
Rank Ships Kills Weapon Used
1 Hurricane 4909 425 AC or 720
2 Drake 4790 HML or HAM
3 Rokh 4734 425 R or Neutron
4 Huginn 1977 425 AC and HML
5 Naga 1843 425 R or Neutron
6 Tornado 1810 800's or 1400's
7 Sabre 1529 Small AC
8 Cynabal 1529 425 AC
9 Hound 1370 Trops
10 Thrasher 1319 Small AC or Arty
11 Oracle 1295 Large Pulse or Beams
12 Talos 1048 425 R or Neutron
13 Nyx 983 Fighter Bomber
14 Stabber FI 970 425 AC ?
15 Maelstrom 967 1400's
16 Rapier 842 425 AC and HML?
17 Zealot 830 Med Pulse or Beam
18 Tengu 819 HML or HAM
19 Jaguar 778 Small AC
20 Merlin 742 Small Rail or Blaster

I put this here to make a little more sense of the whole aguement. While after 3 days 425's are on top a few more ships use these weapons then HML but with fewer ships the HML is still second. Not making any assumptions just putting the info out there. I think after the TE changes it will make the numbers more congruent.