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Why are Corporations So Invasive???

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Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2012-11-02 09:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Oaiso wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
With the old API Keys, most corporations simply asked for the Limited API, which i think most people were fine with. Very few asked for full API's and most refused it.

Since the new API system came out, thats all changed and corps feel welcome to their member's "full" API's.

The new custom API system should make it more clear which of these options used to be part of the 'limited' and 'full' api keys, so that corps dont feel as entitled to all your information.


That's not true, corps were demanding for full API before the custom API's it was practically a cause of the change.

It is true. I never gave up my full API key ever. Not to TEST alliance, not to IT, not to anyone no matter how big or small they were. they never asked for it and i never would have given it to them.

Now, the keys have changed and removed any sign of 'limited or full' keys. its just a single key with permissions you've chosen to hide for some mysterious spy-like reason and sov we cant trust you unless you give us every bit of information, because you're now choosing to selectively hold back that information. what are you hiding? who are you working for? what did you steal? We're all paranoid, and this change has rubbed on that paranoia

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-11-02 09:01:37 UTC
Moe Doobie wrote:
I just want to have some fun man, s**t....

*LOL*
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-11-02 09:03:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Oaiso wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
With the old API Keys, most corporations simply asked for the Limited API, which i think most people were fine with. Very few asked for full API's and most refused it.

Since the new API system came out, thats all changed and corps feel welcome to their member's "full" API's.

The new custom API system should make it more clear which of these options used to be part of the 'limited' and 'full' api keys, so that corps dont feel as entitled to all your information.


That's not true, corps were demanding for full API before the custom API's it was practically a cause of the change.

It is true. I never gave up my full API key ever. Not to TEST alliance, not to IT, not to anyone no matter how big or small they were. they never asked for it and i never would have given it to them.

Now, the keys have changed and removed any sign of 'limited or full' keys. its just a single key with permissions you've chosen to hide for some mysterious spy-like reason and sov we cant trust you unless you give us every bit of information, because you're now choosing to selectively hold back that information. We're all paranoid, and this change has rubbed on that paranoia


My corporation always demanded full API, and we still do demand full API (as in, all boxes checked). Every member of my corp (myself included obviously) gave their full API to a recruiter and through them made it available to the CEO and all directors, and all of them were completely fine with it.
Oaiso
#84 - 2012-11-02 09:03:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Oaiso
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

That's exactly the point. A person who passes through our recruitment is no longer "a random player". That's what the recruitment should assure.


So I was correct, you do have a false sense of security. I'm tempted to make a clean alt and join your corp as trusted member.

Akirei Scytale wrote:
Oaiso wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:



I view "noob friendly" as being friendly to noobs in EVE. The goons kill 2 week old characters in retrievers. What you're calling noob friendly I just call neckbearded snobbery.


Did you read my previous posts? Roll

Not furbishing API screams "I don't trust you and / or I am doing some sketchy **** I don't want you to know about." Not someone a corp would jump at the opportunity to recruit.


I can't change how you view it, but people are telling you they're uncomfortable with it. The threshold for privacy is different for people. On that note, the threshold for being an invasive prick is different for others.
Oaiso
#85 - 2012-11-02 09:04:34 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:

It is true. I never gave up my full API key ever. Not to TEST alliance, not to IT, not to anyone no matter how big or small they were. they never asked for it and i never would have given it to them.

Now, the keys have changed and removed any sign of 'limited or full' keys. its just a single key with permissions you've chosen to hide for some mysterious spy-like reason and sov we cant trust you unless you give us every bit of information, because you're now choosing to selectively hold back that information. We're all paranoid, and this change has rubbed on that paranoia


No it isn't, you're going off personal experience which is absolutely meaningless.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2012-11-02 09:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

My corporation always demanded full API, and we still do demand full API (as in, all boxes checked). Every member of my corp (myself included obviously) gave their full API to a recruiter and through them made it available to the CEO and all directors, and all of them were completely fine with it.

Thats just wrong. There are security problems with giving you the full API. Such as evemails. I have evemails from old alliances. I have evemails with my friend's corp's killboard passwords and hosting database passwords because i manage his hosting for him.

Now i need to turn all of that over to you in order to be recruited? **** you bro.

I'm a serious trader. I hold my trade secrets close to my heart. Asking me to turn over that information is like allowing a giant alliance to come run your lvl4's for you. It introduces competition that i did not want. I dont want you knowing what i trade to make my isk. that is a TRADE SECRET!

You want to snoop my key trade items as a requirement to be recruited? **** you bro.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-11-02 09:07:02 UTC
Oaiso wrote:
I can't change how you view it, but people are telling you they're uncomfortable with it. The threshold for for privacy is different for people. On that note, the threshold for being an invasive prick is different for others.


People who are uncomfortable with it are completely free to join a corporation which does not demand it. The original question was "why do some corps ask for an API", and we're trying to give the reasons. If these reasons are not enough for you, once again, you're free to go look elsewhere.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-11-02 09:08:13 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

My corporation always demanded full API, and we still do demand full API (as in, all boxes checked). Every member of my corp (myself included obviously) gave their full API to a recruiter and through them made it available to the CEO and all directors, and all of them were completely fine with it.

Thats just wrong. There are security problems with giving you the full API. Such as evemails. I have evemails from old alliances. I have evemails with my friend's corp's killboard passwords and hosting database passwords because i manage his hosting for him.

Now i need to turn all of that over to you in order to be recruited? **** you bro.


No, you don't. I'm not trying to recruit you. Smile
Oaiso
#89 - 2012-11-02 09:09:05 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

People who are uncomfortable with it are completely free to join a corporation which does not demand it. The original question was "why do some corps ask for an API", and we're trying to give the reasons. If these reasons are not enough for you, once again, you're free to go look elsewhere.


Right and I'm telling you what you're doing is pointless

-Doesn't keep out effective spies

-Alienates people

-Provides a false sense of security
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#90 - 2012-11-02 09:09:55 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Moe Doobie wrote:
I don't like people knowing that sort of info about me. It's none of your business what I buy and how much money I have.

They claimed it was to ensure I wasn't being funded by a main for "Awoxing" or w/e....w/e that means.




Well, if you have nothing to hide then you have no problem checking all boxes. That simple Blink


Lol, funny. Real world goverments uses same excuse to justify spying on their citizens. And everyone has something to hide. You just dont know it yet.

When really its matter if goverment has right to that information in first place.

I have been in many corporations and i have newer submitted api for checks. Clearly the leaders dont give me access to their full api so i can check that theyre not pirates setting me up for a trap Blink

That has been my bigest issue with api checks. It should be two way street. you want mine, i get yours...

And really good spy is newer catched by api checks. Heck Bob was brought down by trusted director that desided hes had enough... So he was someone that eventually turned as spy...

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2012-11-02 09:09:56 UTC
Bottom line is corps are using the API system as a lazy way to filter out spies/thieves.
They want to just blindly accept everyone into their corp to grow as fast as possible, yet they want to catch you if you steal AFTER the incident.

Its bad security.

If you're concerned about security, THEN SECURE YOUR ****. Dont leave expensive things in vulnerable places. Dont give your new recruits full access to every corp hanger. DONT BE A LAZY IDIOT.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Oaiso
#92 - 2012-11-02 09:12:36 UTC
I also think it's funny that some of these pro-API people are in the most spy ridden alliances in the game, which I'm sure half the posters in this thread have alts in.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-11-02 09:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Oaiso wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

People who are uncomfortable with it are completely free to join a corporation which does not demand it. The original question was "why do some corps ask for an API", and we're trying to give the reasons. If these reasons are not enough for you, once again, you're free to go look elsewhere.


Right and I'm telling you what you're doing is pointless

-Doesn't keep out effective spies

-Alienates people

-Provides a false sense of security


I agree on all three points. Yet I still think it is beneficial, for reasons I posted a page back.
Miranda Fluffbunny
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2012-11-02 09:31:31 UTC
Moe Doobie wrote:


I applied to a well known Corp/Alliance on my main, and sent their recruiter my API key. I unchecked everything that gave info on how much isk I have and my transactions. They turned down my app because of it.

Yes I understand this is just a game, but my irritation due to this level of invasiveness comes from RL; my Employer didn't even ask me how much money I have and request an account of every transaction I've had that year. I don't like people knowing that sort of info about me. It's none of your business what I buy and how much money I have.

They claimed it was to ensure I wasn't being funded by a main for "Awoxing" or w/e....w/e that means.

WTF dude??? W/e happened to just sending an app to a guild/alliance/whatever, maybe doing a short interview then joining up with some cool folks and shooting stuff???

What the hell with this invasiveness/red tape; join such and such forum and wait 3 months, sit around for hours waiting for an interview, etc??

I understand there's a need to prevent spying but really? I mean if I were a spy, I would be MORE than willing to give you whatever you ask for; whatever it takes to get in. Especially since I'm probably an exp player so I already pretty much know what you'll consider a red flag.

Damn man, it just seems like EVERYTHING in this game is so friggin complicated...I just want to have some fun man, s**t....


I agree with you. Last time I was in an NPC corp, I was out mining in a belt, minding my own business, when some random guy asked me if I wanted to join his corp. I checked out their profile and they wanted full API, so I politely turned him down citing this as my reason. The guy argued with me that it's the way they keep their members 'safe' and insinuated that I must have something to hide. How am I to know that they're not just looking out for potential victims? Trust goes both ways...

I'm not a spy or an awoxer, but I do have sensitive eve mails from my last corp that I don't want other people to read and I'm really not comfortable with others knowing what I own, what I'm building and selling at the market, where I go scanning, etc. I'm ok with giving out a partial API showing skills, skill queue, same account alts and even my current wallet balance but any corp that requires full API can kiss my arse.
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#95 - 2012-11-02 09:32:00 UTC
It's an easy way to filter out idiots, special snowflakes and RMTers. Most of the spies will get through.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#96 - 2012-11-02 09:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Silk daShocka
Terminal Insanity wrote:
With the old API Keys, most corporations simply asked for the Limited API, which i think most people were fine with. Very few asked for full API's and most refused it.

Since the new API system came out, thats all changed and corps feel welcome to their member's "full" API's.

The new custom API system should make it more clear which of these options used to be part of the 'limited' and 'full' api keys, so that corps dont feel as entitled to all your information. Its bullshit having to turn over your entire trading habbits (and reviel all of your key trade items) simply to join a corp. That never used to be a problem with the old API system.

Its simply a problem of how it is presented to the players. It has changed, and in turn has changed some player's expectations.


What was the slogan for hte API changes? I believe it was power to the players?

I remember prior to the change limited API was teh norm, and full API was viewed by most as something that you just didn't hand out to a stranger.

So i guess it turns out the change was power to the recruiter. Now who's to say that the recruiter isn't a spy? Wouldn't that be a great position to be in to spy on people? Your fed intel daily not only on those joining the corp, but anyone even showing an interest. That API key is also usually not canceled by the player I imagine while he is still part of the corp, thus provided updated intel on many many things. Who better to be a spy, than the recruiter that knows more than most about how to get past API checks and also has a good understanding how legitimate recruitment converstations work etc. Power to the spy? Seems like it.

IMO corps should be looking for a limited API key which really they only need to see the wallet journal to filter out bad spys, as well as see SP information. It's not doing the corp any good to see all my assets and market transactions etc., it's also not doing the person applying to the corp any good.

Is it too hard to have the CEO, or a trusted director have a look at a full API should you then choose that this member is eligible to roles that might cause security issues?
Othran
Route One
#97 - 2012-11-02 10:03:53 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:

Thats just wrong. There are security problems with giving you the full API. Such as evemails.


Totally agree. I've never given out an API which allows people to see/read evemails and I never will.

I don't care whether the content of the evemails is sensitive (passwords etc) or not - the fact is that evemails are PRIVATE.

I'm not having some **** reading evemails to/from friends in Eve and its as simple as that. If it can be done then you better believe some sad fuckwit will be doing it!

So far corps I'm in have been fine once its explained in those terms. For ones that aren't, well I don't much care as if the people in that corp are stupid enough to let someone read all your mail then its the wrong corp for me.

I can understand corps wanting visibility of your transactions/assets simply because it shows in-station player trading, which in turn is usually a good indication of whether you have undisclosed accounts. Most people have traded between accounts at some time in the past.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-11-02 10:12:53 UTC
I don't get the point of requiring prospective members to hand over access to API data other than skills and characters on the account. Alas, I've never been in a corp that openly recruited. vOv

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alphaphi
KASK Heavy logistics
#99 - 2012-11-02 10:27:33 UTC
There's a good reason to ask for a full API.

i used to be the director of the industry/mining sector in one of my old corporations.
we had an applicant one day that wanted to join.
he said ''OOH YEAH, i can pilot a rorqual, i have a rorqual blahblahblah'' i wanted a full API to get proof of this rorqual, both skillwise and asset wise.
he refused to give us the API, but he ''were currently mining with friends, and were hauling in the rorqual'' and we could ''join in and experience how it is to have rorqual boosting and hauling''
frankly, obvious trap is obvious.
people also have a tendency to spew out crap about their assets.

The API are not only used to keep spies out, but also to ensure that people actually bring what they promise, both asset wise, and skillpoint wise.
some corps have monthly member fees, and if someone says ''they can't pay it'' and want it postponed, they can see if that's true via the API.

you can do crap with the API else than looking at a characters info.
Oaiso
#100 - 2012-11-02 10:35:02 UTC
Alphaphi wrote:
There's a good reason to ask for a full API.

he API are not only used to keep spies out, but also to ensure that people actually bring what they promise, both asset wise, and skillpoint wise.
some corps have monthly member fees, and if someone says ''they can't pay it'' and want it postponed, they can see if that's true via the API.


So extortion then?