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NEW T1 LOGI BETTER THAN T2??? WTH

Author
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#1 - 2012-11-01 14:49:08 UTC
ok so after playing around on the test server i have seen that the new buff to t1 logi has totaly made t2 logi not needed at all why risk a 160mil ship when a 7mil ship does the same thing.
you need a 1/4 of the skills and get the same ship at 1/8 of the price with the same tank with in some case better rep ok u lose like 12k on ur rep range. big deal

what is the point in flying t2 what is the point in training logi 5. please tell me this will be adjusted to be more in line with other ships


please dont make t1 logi the new drakes of eve!!!
Arduemont
The State of War.
#2 - 2012-11-01 15:54:02 UTC
If this is true,

Then it's a genuine concern.

Although a 12 km range difference is a pretty big deal.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#3 - 2012-11-01 16:02:00 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
If this is true,

Then it's a genuine concern.

Although a 12 km range difference is a pretty big deal.




it is but having the same tank at the same speed with the same rep in a t1 hull. u can afford to move in 12k

the real problem i have is if you ask any true logi pilot they will all tell you the same thing logi 5 is a must to be a logi pilot with these ships you need logi 0 and u can effect the fight the same way a logi 5 pilot can.
usrevenge
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-11-01 17:57:35 UTC
I think they will be nerfing it, I read about it being bad and it sounds like t2 logi will be useless afterward... but who knows.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2012-11-01 18:26:09 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
If this is true,

Then it's a genuine concern.

Although a 12 km range difference is a pretty big deal.




it is but having the same tank at the same speed with the same rep in a t1 hull. u can afford to move in 12k

the real problem i have is if you ask any true logi pilot they will all tell you the same thing logi 5 is a must to be a logi pilot with these ships you need logi 0 and u can effect the fight the same way a logi 5 pilot can.


A couple of things to be weary of:
1.) T1 logi's are not as cap resilient as t2 logies and have lower base HP, lower sensor strengths, lower targeting range, slower alignment, lower warp speeds, and most importantly, lower base RESISTS.... being a little faster, having an extra slot, and an extra rig will make up some of that, but not as much as you'd think....

2.) The t2 logi's will be altered in future expansions, as they haven't been rebalanced yet.... You could look at many of the rebalanced cruiser hulls and compare them to hacs or recons and complain about how t1 cruisers are "nearly as good" or "better in some circumstances" than their corresponding HAC/Recon, but so what.... t2 ships will get their due, enjoy the plethora of new ships to play with now... I've flown exequror's for quite a while, but very rarely for logisitics purposes (often purely for bait). Now I can actually use the ship in it's intended role!!!
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#6 - 2012-11-01 23:23:05 UTC
T1 Logis can't fit larger remote repair mods without [almost] completely giving up their tank. Thus, they will never be able to repair as much as the "traditional" T2 Logistics cruisers.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#7 - 2012-11-02 00:43:01 UTC
T1 logis are still worse, just not useless.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2012-11-02 05:17:49 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
T1 Logis can't fit larger remote repair mods without [almost] completely giving up their tank. Thus, they will never be able to repair as much as the "traditional" T2 Logistics cruisers.


The ships get a 15% boost / level to rep amounts...

At level 5, 1 medium remote repper on the t1 logistics is almost worth a large remote repper on the t2 logisitcs ships. Also, since the PG requirements for Large Shield Xfer's is pretty low, you can create 3 LST / 2x MET Osprey's that perma outrep 5/1 basi's. You gimp your tank to do this.... especially when compared to the Basi's...

In the end, the t1 logi's are comparable to t2 logi's in terms of operation range and logistics ability. They just are not as durable.... meaning in larger engagements the t2 logi's are very much worth the extra price tag. In throw away gangs, the t1 logi bring a lot to the field for a nice low cost ratio.

They seem well balanced to me at the moment!
Bethesda
The Wooden Nest
#9 - 2012-11-02 14:15:38 UTC
If this is correct, then with the imminent aggression rules (not being able to dock/jump if repping an aggressor) a T1 rep would be better. Unless the tank and rep amount is going to double for the T2...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2012-11-02 15:27:54 UTC
Bethesda wrote:
If this is correct, then with the imminent aggression rules (not being able to dock/jump if repping an aggressor) a T1 rep would be better. Unless the tank and rep amount is going to double for the T2...


The tank on t2 is significantly higher.... most t1 logistics cruisers have 1/2 to 2/3 the resistances (and EHP for that matter) of t2 logistics cruisers.... The loss of t2 resists is HUGE to logistics ships...
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2012-11-02 16:50:11 UTC
The OP is exagerating, they're not better, they're just functional, if you want a survivable brawler logi you go with the traditional t2, fi your goal is just repping power where you dont care about the logi's life then you can swarm cheap t1 logi fodder.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#12 - 2012-11-02 19:21:11 UTC
This actually means we can now use cheap T1 logis for those annoying to fix POS guns.
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-11-05 12:10:24 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
This actually means we can now use cheap T1 logis for those annoying to fix POS guns.


isen't the typhoon better for that than the T2 logies?
If you get to not care about EHP and survivability?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-11-05 15:30:11 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
This actually means we can now use cheap T1 logis for those annoying to fix POS guns.


it also means newbies can help out with logistics, and be good at it.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#15 - 2012-11-06 15:03:37 UTC
think the point is that yes the t1 logi are sweet there rep and range are pretty close to that of the t2 and yes the tank is a little less but with that being said why train an extra 3 months or more for the t2 stuff when the differences is so small it dont make sense .
i think what they really should look at doing is cutting down the range of these ships and maybe gimp the tank just a little more.


i am a logi pilot its all i do and i will tell you i am very happy to have a buff in this area anything that brings more logi pilots into fleet i am in favor of, how ever i don't want to have all the time i spent training up for that scimi or basi to be in vain cuz the t1 is so close to being just as good.


1. cut down the range ALOT i think 35k should be max
2. gimp the ehp a little more not by much just a little.
3. keep the rep amount as is.

these things i think will still let low sp players in the fight but will also not **** the old vets who have spent so much time on logi training.



p.s love the logi frigs how ever the caldari one looks like a lego also will there be a t2 if so my sabre pilots will love u
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#16 - 2012-11-06 15:11:38 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Bethesda wrote:
If this is correct, then with the imminent aggression rules (not being able to dock/jump if repping an aggressor) a T1 rep would be better. Unless the tank and rep amount is going to double for the T2...


The tank on t2 is significantly higher.... most t1 logistics cruisers have 1/2 to 2/3 the resistances (and EHP for that matter) of t2 logistics cruisers.... The loss of t2 resists is HUGE to logistics ships...




do me a favor get on the test server and make a 4+1 osprey tanked like u would a standard bassi

lets say

4+2
1x lse 2
1x invul
1x em
1x eccm
1x mwd

1x damge control
1x say well u got some room here so do what u would like.

and x2 acr t1

that is a basic basi fit ok know take the new osprey and see what u can do mind u ya dont have the fitting problems cuz med reps . trust me i played and played with it you can make it have more tank and rep the same.

i know the t2 is always gonna be a little better but in the case of these ships the difference is sooooo small it makes t2 not worth it
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2012-11-06 18:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Cr Turist wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Bethesda wrote:
If this is correct, then with the imminent aggression rules (not being able to dock/jump if repping an aggressor) a T1 rep would be better. Unless the tank and rep amount is going to double for the T2...


The tank on t2 is significantly higher.... most t1 logistics cruisers have 1/2 to 2/3 the resistances (and EHP for that matter) of t2 logistics cruisers.... The loss of t2 resists is HUGE to logistics ships...




do me a favor get on the test server and make a 4+1 osprey tanked like u would a standard bassi

lets say

4+2
1x lse 2
1x invul
1x em
1x eccm
1x mwd

1x damge control
1x say well u got some room here so do what u would like.

and x2 acr t1

that is a basic basi fit ok know take the new osprey and see what u can do mind u ya dont have the fitting problems cuz med reps . trust me i played and played with it you can make it have more tank and rep the same.

i know the t2 is always gonna be a little better but in the case of these ships the difference is sooooo small it makes t2 not worth it


You still have one low on that basi, often filled with an overdrive, PDS, or nano... depending on preference.

Now, compare it to what you get out of the 4/1 osprey, which has 2x lows and 3x resist rigs to fix:

  • The small gap in it's shield HP: 5300 on the osprey vs 5900 on the basi (which isn't too bad until you consider resists).
  • The glaring gap in it's resists: Resists are EXTREMELY important when using RR. While the osprey has equivalent EM and Exp, the kin/therm of 51/63 on the osprey to 87.8/81.6 on the basi is very significant. The combination of shield resists vs HP give the osprey 15000 EHP in shields, compared to 25000 EHP in shields on the Basi.
  • The glaring cap problems: The osprey is NOT cap stable with 1 xfer and a running MWD. With the MWD off, it's only 55% cap stable and very susceptible to neuts.
  • It reps less base HP: Osprey 269 hp/s vs Basi 307 hp/s.
  • It has significantly lower Sensor Strength: Osprey 31.4 vs Basi 43.1


You can't fix all of the above with 2 lowslots and 3x Rigs:

  • The most important thing to fix is the resists, which can be brough closer to the Basi's, but not that much... play around with those 3x rig slots and 2x shield hardeners all you want, you'll have about 70% resists across the board.... decent, but the basi will still have 28% (Barrage) - 63% (Lasers) - 95% (hybrids) more shield EHP than the Osprey (the rest shouldn't matter). Additionally, repping to a Basi is 16% (Barrage) - 46% (Lasers) - 78% (Hybrids) more effective than reps to this osprey.

  • Fixing the rep amount of the osprey vs the basi can be fixed with deadspace reppers, but I really don't think small/medium deadspace modules will remain cheap, as their usage/destuction coupled with the increased demand for them will dramatically increase their price (it already has from market speculation!).

  • Fixing the energy issues could be reduced / eliminated by using PDU's / CPRs in the 2x lowslots.

  • The sensor strength could be boosted with a backup array.


To the osprey's benefit:

  • It is significantly faster: Osprey 1700 m/s vs Basi 1500 m/s; unless the basi fits an overdrive or nano... making them equal..
  • It is significantly cheaper: Osprey 10-15m vs Basi 150-175m.


In the end, the Osprey will be a good ship, but it will still rep less and it will be less survivable. The 4/2 Basi outperforms it in almost every meaningful way, and the 5/1 Basi significantly outperforms it in every manner except speed.
Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone
#18 - 2012-11-09 00:38:55 UTC
Don't nerf T1; buff T2.

The Gaming MoD - retro to modern, console to MMO, I blog about it if it's a game and I'm interested in it. Yes, I play games other than Eve and I don't care if you think I'm wrong.

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#19 - 2012-11-09 14:56:15 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:

what is the point in training logi 5.


For triage

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#20 - 2012-11-16 12:30:08 UTC
t1 logi have too many slots. Take away a tanking slot for each to further exaggerated the difference in t2 vs t1 tankability.
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