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Why Is Ice Mostly Bot Mined?
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Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#21 - 2011-10-13 20:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
There are strong incentives to bot it, and strong disincentives to active mine it. Ice mining is just about the most boring thing you can do in EVE, with player interaction required at the very most every ten minutes. Further, the ISK/hour is less than mining Veldspar. So if you're of a mind to active mine in high sec there's really no good reason not to go mine veld.

On the other hand, botting ice is easy, you can move from point A to B and back to A over and over, mining the same asteroid, for months at a time. Pretty much anyone with a room temperature IQ can macro that with one of the hundreds of free macro/scripting programs you can download. The belt rats in 0.5-0.7 cannot break the tank of a mackinaw with even just a couple resist amps, so they're no threat. And that terrible per-hour income doesn't seem so shabby if it's being earned ten hours a day while you're at work, or twenty hours a day on a second account on an older PC.
Persona Nongratus
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-10-14 02:27:55 UTC
Calipygian wrote:
VaMei wrote:

Bots that are ice mining are playing the what I mine is free thing, since they'd do better to mine veld for sale & buy ice products than to mine ice.


But this is such common knowledge, what kind of player needs such epic quantities of ice but doesn't have any consideration of opportunity cost (even if they don't know the term)? It's something I'd expect everyone involved in industry to suss out pretty quickly. If that was true, you could reduce ice botting with and education campaign.



What neither of you take into account is the Eveconomic theory, "what ever ice I mine while AFK is better than nothing at all" school of thought. Prior to the goons campaign I'd run a Mac alt when I had something RL to do on my computer, run EVE in the background and check in ever 10-15 minutes.

I wouldn't run any other ship in this manner, too much of a distraction from the RL matters. But hey, I was getting ice I wouldn't have had otherwise because I wouldn't have been logged in.
Calipygian
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-10-14 03:44:34 UTC
Persona Nongratus wrote:
Calipygian wrote:
VaMei wrote:

Bots that are ice mining are playing the what I mine is free thing, since they'd do better to mine veld for sale & buy ice products than to mine ice.


But this is such common knowledge, what kind of player needs such epic quantities of ice but doesn't have any consideration of opportunity cost (even if they don't know the term)? It's something I'd expect everyone involved in industry to suss out pretty quickly. If that was true, you could reduce ice botting with and education campaign.



What neither of you take into account is the Eveconomic theory, "what ever ice I mine while AFK is better than nothing at all" school of thought. Prior to the goons campaign I'd run a Mac alt when I had something RL to do on my computer, run EVE in the background and check in ever 10-15 minutes.

I wouldn't run any other ship in this manner, too much of a distraction from the RL matters. But hey, I was getting ice I wouldn't have had otherwise because I wouldn't have been logged in.

I'm not ignoring it at all. I understand why somebody would mine ice some. I've done it myself. A whole lot of generalizations and accusations get tossed around whenever ice comes up. Especially now. But that isn't the subject of this thread. I was curious about why people use bots when they could have used them to go after more valuable ores. Something that has been pretty well answered to my satisfaction.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#24 - 2011-10-14 10:05:08 UTC
Persona Nongratus wrote:
Calipygian wrote:
VaMei wrote:

Bots that are ice mining are playing the what I mine is free thing, since they'd do better to mine veld for sale & buy ice products than to mine ice.


But this is such common knowledge, what kind of player needs such epic quantities of ice but doesn't have any consideration of opportunity cost (even if they don't know the term)? It's something I'd expect everyone involved in industry to suss out pretty quickly. If that was true, you could reduce ice botting with and education campaign.



What neither of you take into account is the Eveconomic theory, "what ever ice I mine while AFK is better than nothing at all" school of thought. Prior to the goons campaign I'd run a Mac alt when I had something RL to do on my computer, run EVE in the background and check in ever 10-15 minutes.

I wouldn't run any other ship in this manner, too much of a distraction from the RL matters. But hey, I was getting ice I wouldn't have had otherwise because I wouldn't have been logged in.


Reading only the quote takes my original statement a bit out of of context. I'd originally said that I believe that a good many of the ice miners are either dual boxing or semi-afk, rather than bots, for exactly the reasons you offered.
Using a kitchen timer to 'macro' your ice miner isn't against the EULA, but is almost as effective as a live player.
drinking12many
Nine Inch Ninja Corp
#25 - 2011-10-14 14:16:45 UTC
Persona Nongratus wrote:
Calipygian wrote:
VaMei wrote:

Bots that are ice mining are playing the what I mine is free thing, since they'd do better to mine veld for sale & buy ice products than to mine ice.


But this is such common knowledge, what kind of player needs such epic quantities of ice but doesn't have any consideration of opportunity cost (even if they don't know the term)? It's something I'd expect everyone involved in industry to suss out pretty quickly. If that was true, you could reduce ice botting with and education campaign.



What neither of you take into account is the Eveconomic theory, "what ever ice I mine while AFK is better than nothing at all" school of thought. Prior to the goons campaign I'd run a Mac alt when I had something RL to do on my computer, run EVE in the background and check in ever 10-15 minutes.

I wouldn't run any other ship in this manner, too much of a distraction from the RL matters. But hey, I was getting ice I wouldn't have had otherwise because I wouldn't have been logged in.



Yep mined ice while writing papers for college as I hardly needed to pay attention. run eve on one screen, write papers and do research on the other.
Esagila
#26 - 2011-10-14 20:03:21 UTC
drinking12many wrote:
Persona Nongratus wrote:
Calipygian wrote:
VaMei wrote:

Bots that are ice mining are playing the what I mine is free thing, since they'd do better to mine veld for sale & buy ice products than to mine ice.


But this is such common knowledge, what kind of player needs such epic quantities of ice but doesn't have any consideration of opportunity cost (even if they don't know the term)? It's something I'd expect everyone involved in industry to suss out pretty quickly. If that was true, you could reduce ice botting with and education campaign.



What neither of you take into account is the Eveconomic theory, "what ever ice I mine while AFK is better than nothing at all" school of thought. Prior to the goons campaign I'd run a Mac alt when I had something RL to do on my computer, run EVE in the background and check in ever 10-15 minutes.

I wouldn't run any other ship in this manner, too much of a distraction from the RL matters. But hey, I was getting ice I wouldn't have had otherwise because I wouldn't have been logged in.



Yep mined ice while writing papers for college as I hardly needed to pay attention. run eve on one screen, write papers and do research on the other.


I also do this. I know there are a few miners that mine atk, I personally don’t see how they do it so I mine partially afk while I’m doing other activities.

As far as botting ice? To me it doesn’t make any sense, because as other posters have posted the economics just works more in favor of botting ore (better prices) than ice. Plus if you have a program automating all the work you don’t have to deal with the annoying “the asteroid is depleted stuff” – which can get very annoying if you’re running multiple accounts and doing it manually.

I would like a definitive way in identifying bots. So far bumping before gank to see if it re-corrects back to the ice cube (I don’t know how accurate this is), and observing that it’s trying to mine in a pod after gank seem to be the only way. Are there others? I just don’t see it productive taking a whole population and labeling it as botters. I mean, I would genuinely like to help since I’m out in the belts and I’m pretty sure have run into (without knowing it) my fair handful of bots, if I can do my part without abusing their reporting system I’d be very happy :)
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-10-14 20:48:42 UTC
My alts are mining ice, and i'm not a bot. Nor are they.
Iwillbuystuff
Deck of Cards
#28 - 2011-10-18 04:13:23 UTC
I also mine ice and am not a bot. Ice is really really easy to do while doing other things (either on your computer or not). I have a timer on my phone that just loops, every time it beeps I go move my ice.

And while it's not as profitable per hour as mining ore...you can do it without as much effort and, therefore, for longer periods of time. I've managed to go entire days mining ice (14 hours or so, however long I stay awake for haha), but I could never do that mining ore, just requires too much more attention.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#29 - 2011-10-18 09:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
I used to mine Ice sometimes as a new player just for something different to do and some ISK.

BUT, NEVER would I be AFK for even a second. I'd at least be sitting there staring at TV or something but always ready for 'a surprise'. Smile

So yes, it's down now to just mining strictly what I need for a Medium Elite Faction Tower and that's it for me anymore.

But really being truly AFK and botting is just not correct. That's not even playing. AND it FLOODS THE MARKET....thereby FORCING it to be unprofitable with the overload in volume.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Minta Contha
Emergent Entity
#30 - 2011-10-19 14:13:27 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's because a whole fleet of Macks could mine on a single Ice chunk and never pop it
And mining ice is the single most boring event in the entire game.


You, sir, have clearly never been subjected to the entertainment-fest of gas harvesting... Cry

My cooking is like my lovemaking - fast, greasy, and unsatisfying.
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#31 - 2011-10-19 15:00:39 UTC
Calipygian wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
because ice mining requires a less intelligent bot as it's never got to move


That was my guess. But I do hear stories about people bot mining ore. Is it just a null-sec thing where there is less mining competition and some more vaulable ores?

well profitable or not, ice is needed as POS and Capitals fuel, so there's always a need. And I guess Ice mining is easier to program as it doesn't deplete and such. And it's even more boring than ore mining so it must be the least challenging/exciting occupation in EVE. Not something you'd like to do every day.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2011-10-19 15:39:52 UTC
ore is also bot mined, iirc the first wave of bot bans hit highsec veld mining bots the hardest

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-10-19 16:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
prove that it is mostly bot mined. I can say there is less movement in ice moning so in theory ice mining should be easier to bot. but I don't agree with your founding premise.

Quote:
ore is also bot mined, iirc the first wave of bot bans hit highsec veld mining bots the hardest


fewer than you think. I have never used a bot or even macro for any mining though I have been accused a number of times.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2011-10-19 16:34:18 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
prove that it is mostly bot mined. I can say there is less movement in ice moning so in theory ice mining should be easier to bot. but I don't agree with your founding premise.


as the resident expert on ice miners: they're all bots, with the exception of people in gallente space who are just idiots

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2011-10-19 16:34:54 UTC
because all the bots were already driven out, the only people who remain are the ones that think baiting goons in a 170m uninsurable ship is a good idea

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2011-10-19 16:37:13 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
prove that it is mostly bot mined. I can say there is less movement in ice moning so in theory ice mining should be easier to bot. but I don't agree with your founding premise.


as the resident expert on ice miners: they're all bots, with the exception of people in gallente space who are just idiots


this is the answer I expected from goon.. or any biased person looking in at mining.. I contend again the number of botters is fewer than you think.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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