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communism is the answer

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Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-10-31 20:49:06 UTC
It's a shame my quote from Lincoln was removed.

The point I was intending to make is that no, communism is not an answer for anything, not for real life, and not for Eve. It is just a way to seize power and control people.

Ronald Reagan wrote:
The Founding Fathers knew a government can't control the economy without controlling people. And they knew when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose.


How does this apply to Eve and the OP? The OP was actually suggesting extreme limitations on trade. But that wouldn't fix anything. We have alts. If you can plant a spy in someone's corp, you can create a purchasing proxy easily enough. Then it becomes a reputation game, and that isn't anything but an economic system of cronyism.

OP labeled the suggestion in the thread topic "communism". Communism as an economic model has always failed in practice, because it models human nature incorrectly. Communism in Eve would kill the economy in Eve as surely as it kills real life economies where it is practiced, but for a different reason.

I don't want some other player deciding what prices or to whom I can sell. I don't want the computer deciding at what prices or to whom I can sell. Centrally planned economies always devolve to the case where being successful becomes a matter of who you know (cronyism) not what you do (excellence). We get enough of that real life.

With regard to James 315, it would be nice to have a way for players to fight back without incurring the wrath of Concord. What Eve actually needs is a Stand-Your-Ground mechanic.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2012-10-31 21:17:41 UTC
Noriko Satomi wrote:
It's a shame my quote from Lincoln was removed.

The point I was intending to make is that no, communism is not an answer for anything, not for real life, and not for Eve. It is just a way to seize power and control people.

Ronald Reagan wrote:
The Founding Fathers knew a government can't control the economy without controlling people. And they knew when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose.


How does this apply to Eve and the OP? The OP was actually suggesting extreme limitations on trade. But that wouldn't fix anything. We have alts. If you can plant a spy in someone's corp, you can create a purchasing proxy easily enough. Then it becomes a reputation game, and that isn't anything but an economic system of cronyism.

OP labeled the suggestion in the thread topic "communism". Communism as an economic model has always failed in practice, because it models human nature incorrectly. Communism in Eve would kill the economy in Eve as surely as it kills real life economies where it is practiced, but for a different reason.

I don't want some other player deciding what prices or to whom I can sell. I don't want the computer deciding at what prices or to whom I can sell. Centrally planned economies always devolve to the case where being successful becomes a matter of who you know (cronyism) not what you do (excellence). We get enough of that real life.

With regard to James 315, it would be nice to have a way for players to fight back without incurring the wrath of Concord. What Eve actually needs is a Stand-Your-Ground mechanic.




Hahahahaha

You just keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, socialist alliances who do regulate their members will continue to get bigger and wealthier while having more fun than the poor "free market" slaves of highsec.

Keep on grinding your ice and L4's, watch your income stagnate and your costs rise, and keep calling it freedom.
Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-10-31 21:31:38 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
...


Hahahahaha

You just keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, socialist alliances who do regulate their members will continue to get bigger and wealthier while having more fun than the poor "free market" slaves of highsec.

Keep on grinding your ice and L4's, watch your income stagnate and your costs rise, and keep calling it freedom.

Alliances are groups of corporations not some all-encompassing government in Eve that affects all players. I seem to remember lots of whining about always having to show up for CTAs and not being able to do what you want, coming from the rank and file of many of these groups. (A ship replacement policy isn't "socialism" either, it's just a corporate expense policy.)

And I don't mine or manufacture.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2012-10-31 21:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Shepard Wong Ogeko
Noriko Satomi wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
...


Hahahahaha

You just keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, socialist alliances who do regulate their members will continue to get bigger and wealthier while having more fun than the poor "free market" slaves of highsec.

Keep on grinding your ice and L4's, watch your income stagnate and your costs rise, and keep calling it freedom.

Alliances are groups of corporations not some all-encompassing government in Eve that affects all players. I seem to remember lots of whining about always having to show up for CTAs and not being able to do what you want, coming from the rank and file of many of these groups. (A ship replacement policy isn't "socialism" either, it's just a corporate expense policy.)

And I don't mine or manufacture.


Typical. Move some goal posts, play with semantics, ignore the uncomfortable fact that the economic system you have been brainwashed into promoting always ends in misery, while the system you vilify leads to greater happiness.


Alliances collect taxes and (can) own space. They can also set the conditions under which people can be members. Sounds like a de facto government to me. Laws, taxes, sovereignty. Just because your cognitive dissonance makes you try to redefine Eve government to include every player in Eve does not make it so. Just another desperate attempt to forget that you may be the last capitalist that sells the Catalyst you will be ganked with.

The replacement policy isn't true socialism, but it is what is commonly referred to as socialism. I would call it welfare, and in our case it is funded by text book socialism. Our tech moons are owned by the de facto government and they use it to create wealth and redistribute it to the needy. I don't want to get into real world examples because the mods are frowning on that, but plenty of such examples exist.


So, higher taxes than highsec (both ratting and PI), "government" owned an operated means of production, wealth from those "government" owned assets is redistributed to the working class. Price control via ship reimbursement to regulate capitalist exploitation. Oh, and we have a cartel with several other tech moon holding alliances to ensure that we all get the most value for our product, rather than race to the bottom via market competition.

And rather than our communist inspired economic system driving us to ruin, we get endless threads on how we've become an unstoppable machine that will eventually take all of nullsec.
Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2012-10-31 23:52:08 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Noriko Satomi wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
...


Hahahahaha

You just keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, socialist alliances who do regulate their members will continue to get bigger and wealthier while having more fun than the poor "free market" slaves of highsec.

Keep on grinding your ice and L4's, watch your income stagnate and your costs rise, and keep calling it freedom.

Alliances are groups of corporations not some all-encompassing government in Eve that affects all players. I seem to remember lots of whining about always having to show up for CTAs and not being able to do what you want, coming from the rank and file of many of these groups. (A ship replacement policy isn't "socialism" either, it's just a corporate expense policy.)

And I don't mine or manufacture.


Typical. Move some goal posts, play with semantics, ignore the uncomfortable fact that the economic system you have been brainwashed into promoting always ends in misery, while the system you vilify leads to greater happiness.

My turn: Hahahahaha. So you're saying that the Soviet Union, Eastern European nations under communism, Cuba, and 1970s China are all paragons of happiness? Or if you prefer socialism, and not actual communism, that Spain, Greece, Italy and France are paragons of happiness today? (Granted they have significantly more fantastic food than I'm used to, but I don't think that's attributable to socialism.)

Quote:

Alliances collect taxes and (can) own space. They can also set the conditions under which people can be members. Sounds like a de facto government to me. Laws, taxes, sovereignty. Just because your cognitive dissonance makes you try to redefine Eve government to include every player in Eve does not make it so. Just another desperate attempt to forget that you may be the last capitalist that sells the Catalyst you will be ganked with.

The replacement policy isn't true socialism, but it is what is commonly referred to as socialism. I would call it welfare, and in our case it is funded by text book socialism. Our tech moons are owned by the de facto government and they use it to create wealth and redistribute it to the needy. I don't want to get into real world examples because the mods are frowning on that, but plenty of such examples exist.

I was under the impression that you replaced ships expended in combat in the pursuit of goals compatible with the profitability of your coalition. Or do you just give out free ships, which I'd agree would have a good analogy with welfare? I tend to view CFC in-game as a simple monopoly, which you achieved through unconstrained capitalistic practices, including market manipulation. And before you put words in my mouth I'm not arguing that unconstrained capitalism is good either (see modern China).

Quote:
So, higher taxes than highsec (both ratting and PI), "government" owned an operated means of production, wealth from those "government" owned assets is redistributed to the working class. Price control via ship reimbursement to regulate capitalist exploitation. Oh, and we have a cartel with several other tech moon holding alliances to ensure that we all get the most value for our product, rather than race to the bottom via market competition.

And rather than our communist inspired economic system driving us to ruin, we get endless threads on how we've become an unstoppable machine that will eventually take all of nullsec.

If I buy your analogy of CFC as government, then the tech moon monopoly and the wealth that comes with it have more in common with some middle eastern despotisms than socialism. What happens if you lose your monopoly? Granted, for CFC that's probably not going to have as big an impact as it might have given your external SA community. But would you lose players?

Your argument is that "free stuff is great!" My argument is that that stuff isn't really free, and freedom is more important. This extends to the Eve marketplace.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#106 - 2012-10-31 23:57:21 UTC
A communist is a capitalist without the resources. Once they have the resources everyone becomes capitalists.
Aslaug Torgersen
Perkone
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-10-31 23:58:09 UTC
Where is a Taggart [TTI] when you need one...
Torvin Yulus
Doomheim
#108 - 2012-11-01 02:49:55 UTC
the hatred is stroung but we can beat it miners

the miners and incursion runners will unite and we willa ppoint our own fcs who won't yell at us and we will fit our ships how we like instead of the mittani tellking us what to fly and we will win.

quake in fear gewns

im a pubby and im proud
Freakdevil
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-11-01 03:07:28 UTC
Torvin Yulus wrote:
the hatred is stroung but we can beat it miners

the miners and incursion runners will unite and we willa ppoint our own fcs who won't yell at us and we will fit our ships how we like instead of the mittani tellking us what to fly and we will win.

quake in fear gewns


I wish you luck and suggest you deploy as many miners as you can. Leet miner fleets with FCs screaming on comms.

You know somebody in another thread suggested a space anchor module to prevent a ship from moving. That stupid idea is still better than yours.

You guys are better than my meds.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-11-01 06:38:36 UTC
Noriko Satomi wrote:

My turn: Hahahahaha. So you're saying that the Soviet Union, Eastern European nations under communism, Cuba, and 1970s China are all paragons of happiness? Or if you prefer socialism, and not actual communism, that Spain, Greece, Italy and France are paragons of happiness today? (Granted they have significantly more fantastic food than I'm used to, but I don't think that's attributable to socialism.)


I think the mods have made it quite clear that this subforum is not for hashing out real world politics. My own opinion is that real world politics isn't as real as most people think. That what people call communism, socialism, capitalism, democracy, and freedom are often just myths. More often then not, they can best be described as jingoism.


Quote:

I was under the impression that you replaced ships expended in combat in the pursuit of goals compatible with the profitability of your coalition. Or do you just give out free ships, which I'd agree would have a good analogy with welfare? I tend to view CFC in-game as a simple monopoly, which you achieved through unconstrained capitalistic practices, including market manipulation. And before you put words in my mouth I'm not arguing that unconstrained capitalism is good either (see modern China).


Some ships (frigates and destroyers) are just free. We have an in-game chat channel where you state what race of ship you can fly and you'll get a contract with a few suitable ships.

And we have 2 tiers of reimbursement. One is the standard strategic reimbursement for the standard sov warfare stuff. The other is "peacetime", which covers things like goofing off in Syndicate.

We also have a few more specialized reimbursement and distribution systems for specialized squads.

Nothing about our "monopoly" was attained through capitalist means. Tech moons were often taken by straight up warfare. Killing people and taking their stuff. Not really doctrinaire capitalism, although I think it can be argued that most practical capitalism is really theft.


Quote:

If I buy your analogy of CFC as government, then the tech moon monopoly and the wealth that comes with it have more in common with some middle eastern despotisms than socialism. What happens if you lose your monopoly? Granted, for CFC that's probably not going to have as big an impact as it might have given your external SA community. But would you lose players?

Your argument is that "free stuff is great!" My argument is that that stuff isn't really free, and freedom is more important. This extends to the Eve marketplace.



Again, I don't want to run afoul of forum rules, but I'll briefly use oil production as an example because I think that is what you are getting at mentioning middle eastern despots. Virtually all oil extraction in the world is either done by plain old state owned companies, or by nominally private companies that are granted monopolies by a government and are often so intertwined with government as to be indistinguishable from state owned corporations.

I would agree that part of my argument is that free stuff is great. The "stuff isn't really free" comment is dumb because this debate is around socialism/communism, which are economic systems specifically built on the idea of putting capital and the means of production and the fruits those into the hands of the common person. Of course the stuff doesn't appear out of thin air. It is paid for with tech moons and taxes. But rather than the proceeds from those going to the pockets of the "owners", as capitalism would dictate, they are used to provide for the basic needs of our members.

And not only does the stuff appear free of charge, or at least easily replaced, it also gives us more freedom. It frees us from having to slowly grind our way into low level ships. It keeps us from being forced to grind every time we lose a ship in what are supposed to be fun group activities. And any of us that want to do a grind are free to do so. It gives us more opportunity to try things and find what we really enjoy doing and that we have the means to do it well.

So maybe we have to give up the freedom to gouge our members for equipment, or stab them in the back to increase our private tech incomes. Personally, I don't miss the freedom to be exploited. And I don't see any benefit in the freedom to exploit our friends, teammates or coworkers.
Merovee
Gorthaur Legion
Imperium Mordor
#111 - 2012-11-01 09:47:18 UTC
X High sec is a free market capitalistic zone where the invisible hand of capitalism is free and unfettered. What I see in goon-communism is a slow rot in null sec of zombie serfs slithering through the stars munching on the brains of the last remaining free player alliances. This has to stop before all EVE is consumed by this madness.Ugh

Empire, the next new world order.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2012-11-01 09:52:45 UTC
I blew up a hauler with large rigs and salvage in cargo, both dropped, worth 100 Million ISK !
I screamed FREE LOOT AT THE EYSTUR GATE and somebody came and took it.

He even shared a bit with me, which i believe was nice,
because i don't give a crap about it.


Anyway, communism.

Made by the people, for the people ... am i doing it right ?
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-11-01 19:06:36 UTC
Merovee wrote:
X High sec is a free market capitalistic zone where the invisible hand of capitalism is free and unfettered. What I see in goon-communism is a slow rot in null sec of zombie serfs slithering through the stars munching on the brains of the last remaining free player alliances. This has to stop before all EVE is consumed by this madness.Ugh


Typical slander.

In a way, I love it, because it means we are doing our job, You can't make an omelet without killing a few capsuleers.

But I think the players of Eve online could learn something from us. Our economic system allows us more fun and more freedom and creates news worthy content for what is otherwise another boring grindy RPG.

Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#114 - 2012-11-01 19:11:40 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Merovee wrote:
X High sec is a free market capitalistic zone where the invisible hand of capitalism is free and unfettered. What I see in goon-communism is a slow rot in null sec of zombie serfs slithering through the stars munching on the brains of the last remaining free player alliances. This has to stop before all EVE is consumed by this madness.Ugh


Typical slander.

In a way, I love it, because it means we are doing our job, You can't make an omelet without killing a few capsuleers.

But I think the players of Eve online could learn something from us. Our economic system allows us more fun and more freedom and creates news worthy content for what is otherwise another boring grindy RPG.



So why the changes? Your post seems to indicate Eve is ok. Adapting is playing the game as is.. whining is screaming adapt or die while fighting loudly for lots of changes!! :)

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Proteus Maximus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-11-01 19:27:42 UTC
OP and his genetic line should be wiped from the earth.
The war on stupid needs to start some where.
Thats is communism.

If Goons were around when God said, "Let there be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.
Den Arius
Monte Inc
#116 - 2012-11-01 19:27:49 UTC
Goons are capitalists at heard. Remember the ice drama a few months ago - market manipulation is something done to damage and exploit the working peoples. Inside of their internal forums, they have an entire section titled "EVE - Capitalism" - inside this section there are forums such as "Home Economics". Goon communism is merely a public identity to deceive the real working capsuleers. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/75231886/Untitled-6.gif

Bobb
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2012-11-01 19:52:07 UTC
Den Arius wrote:
Goons are capitalists at heard. Remember the ice drama a few months ago - market manipulation is something done to damage and exploit the working peoples. Inside of their internal forums, they have an entire section titled "EVE - Capitalism" - inside this section there are forums such as "Home Economics". Goon communism is merely a public identity to deceive the real working capsuleers. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/75231886/Untitled-6.gif


We do ruthlessly exploit capitalist ideas on those outside of our alliance.

We'll manipulate markets for our gain, but only if it screws over non-goons. For us, capitalism is like the weapons you put on a ship. It is only used to destroy non-goons for the benefit of goons.

You should have got some screen shots of inside some of those forums. You'll find them packed with goods and services at reasonable prices for goons, and ways to squeeze every last drop of isk from anything that isn't a goon.


Seriously try to find any instance where we have used capitalist principles in a way that wasn't ultimately used to harvest tears. At the end of the day, we are communists to ourselves because it creates a better environment to build and maintain one of the most powerful alliances in all of Eve. We foster capitalism outside our alliance because it creates division, alienation, exploitation and tears. We have no serious threats so long as the rest of the players are stabbing each other in the backs over scraps.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2012-11-01 19:54:53 UTC
Dar Manic wrote:

So why the changes? Your post seems to indicate Eve is ok. Adapting is playing the game as is.. whining is screaming adapt or die while fighting loudly for lots of changes!! :)


Sorry, but I read this 4 times and still can't really parse it. Could you put this in some context?
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#119 - 2012-11-01 19:55:47 UTC
In other words, you want to end the game...

Do you have any idea how many players play EvE solely for the challenges and fun of the market simulation?

This is not the best suggestion...
Den Arius
Monte Inc
#120 - 2012-11-01 19:58:02 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Den Arius wrote:
Goons are capitalists at heard. Remember the ice drama a few months ago - market manipulation is something done to damage and exploit the working peoples. Inside of their internal forums, they have an entire section titled "EVE - Capitalism" - inside this section there are forums such as "Home Economics". Goon communism is merely a public identity to deceive the real working capsuleers. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/75231886/Untitled-6.gif


We do ruthlessly exploit capitalist ideas on those outside of our alliance.

We'll manipulate markets for our gain, but only if it screws over non-goons. For us, capitalism is like the weapons you put on a ship. It is only used to destroy non-goons for the benefit of goons.

You should have got some screen shots of inside some of those forums. You'll find them packed with goods and services at reasonable prices for goons, and ways to squeeze every last drop of isk from anything that isn't a goon.


Seriously try to find any instance where we have used capitalist principles in a way that wasn't ultimately used to harvest tears. At the end of the day, we are communists to ourselves because it creates a better environment to build and maintain one of the most powerful alliances in all of Eve. We foster capitalism outside our alliance because it creates division, alienation, exploitation and tears. We have no serious threats so long as the rest of the players are stabbing each other in the backs over scraps.


The three pillars of Goon Capitalism:

1) Bribes - getting most basic things done requires a bribe: getting a title, getting an alt corp, getting a pos, being able to moon-mine. Bribing is required to do things. Full stop. Period.

2) Loans - Goons are actively loaning to eachother with interest. Demanding things like a collateral as well - this is a very capitalist idea which implies the ownership of private property.

3) Shares - Goons are selling shares of their corporation. This is the essentially the privatization (capitalization) of the entire corporation.

Bobb