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Nightmare setup Lvl 4 in amaar space
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DarkStar78
I Corpa
#21 - 2012-10-31 19:36:16 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
DarkStar78 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
knock knock, your fit is bad.



[sarcasm]I’m sorry for posting such a bad fit [/sarcasm]

What would you suggest I change to make it better?


how about something that can project 700dps to 60km? cause you know, even a raven can do that.



Most of my missions put me 20 to 40 km from the enemy, sometime on top of them so why would I want that?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-10-31 20:16:21 UTC
ok that's it. i'm done with this guy.

I should buy an Ishtar.
DarkStar78
I Corpa
#23 - 2012-10-31 20:39:20 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
ok that's it. i'm done with this guy.



Lol, troll on.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#24 - 2012-10-31 22:10:33 UTC
DarkStar78 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
knock knock, your fit is bad.



[sarcasm]I’m sorry for posting such a bad fit [/sarcasm]

What would you suggest I change to make it better?


FFS. Faction tachs are acceptable, but faction pulses simply aren't. Swapping to T2 megapulse gives you 54 additional DPS with IN multi and cuts your cap stability with everything but the shield booster from stable to 10 something minutes -- which should be fine, especially considering that your AB is still on that whole time too; both are stable without booster and AB.

The two fits are also similar with xray, but who the hell bothers with that. For any crystal with longer range than that -- the fit with T2 guns wins hands down because it can use Scorch -- and you can't. That's 80% of IN multi damage all the way out to 3x the optimal. Not using T2 guns on a fit like this is criminally bad.

And that's all assuming you want to use pulses at all. I'd argue that you don't, but at least it's something of a matter of taste and style. Opting for faction pulses, on the other hand, is just wrong.
DarkStar78
I Corpa
#25 - 2012-11-01 15:10:23 UTC
Finally someone with helpful information rather than a bad fit troll!

I have been putting off training T2 lasers for other things, I guess I’ll have to give it a try. I chew through missions just as fast as a friend with his T2 pulse fit NM so I figured the training wasn’t worth it. I hope it turns out to be as good as you say. . .
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-11-01 15:50:01 UTC
if you not only advise the OP to ditch tachs but also recommend faction pulses, you can't expect to be taken seriously because it is clear as blue sky that you have no idea of what you're talking about. see my signature.

I should buy an Ishtar.
DarkStar78
I Corpa
#27 - 2012-11-01 16:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkStar78
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you not only advise the OP to ditch tachs but also recommend faction pulses, you can't expect to be taken seriously because it is clear as blue sky that you have no idea of what you're talking about. see my signature.



Your a one liner troll, next time add some info and you wont be a troll.

I recommended faction because of the less capacitor use and very little dps penalty they offer.

I fight in the 5 to 30 km range so maybe on some of the rare missions where I need to reach out to 60km ill see a difference. Flying with a friend and his T2 pulse NM I see no real difference in dps. I'm talking from experience not EFT.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-11-01 16:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
DarkStar78 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you not only advise the OP to ditch tachs but also recommend faction pulses, you can't expect to be taken seriously because it is clear as blue sky that you have no idea of what you're talking about. see my signature.



Your a one liner troll, next time add some info and you wont be a troll.

I recommended faction because of the less capacitor use and very little dps penalty they offer.

I fight in the 5 to 30 km range so maybe on some of the rare missions where I need to reach out to 60km ill see a difference. Flying with a friend and his T2 pulse NM I see no real difference in dps. I'm talking from experience not EFT.

the "rare" lvl4 missions that require 60km range are almost all of them and if you really had any noteworthy experience you would know this. before you object, please take a look over here.

I should buy an Ishtar.
DarkStar78
I Corpa
#29 - 2012-11-01 16:58:36 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
DarkStar78 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you not only advise the OP to ditch tachs but also recommend faction pulses, you can't expect to be taken seriously because it is clear as blue sky that you have no idea of what you're talking about. see my signature.



Your a one liner troll, next time add some info and you wont be a troll.

I recommended faction because of the less capacitor use and very little dps penalty they offer.

I fight in the 5 to 30 km range so maybe on some of the rare missions where I need to reach out to 60km ill see a difference. Flying with a friend and his T2 pulse NM I see no real difference in dps. I'm talking from experience not EFT.

the "rare" lvl4 missions that require 60km range are almost all of them and if you really had any noteworthy experience you would know this. before you object, please take a look over here.



Like I said, most of my missions are 30km or closer, I’m not a Dixi dweller perhaps that has something to do with it?

How about a list of missions with rats closer than 60km?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-11-01 16:59:39 UTC
that's your homework son.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#31 - 2012-11-01 17:13:27 UTC
While I do agree that a good rule of thumb is damage protection out to 60km for level four missions. Considering many level 4 missions have BS's that orbit at 50km.

However, If you are flying a AB fit that is cap stable with the shield booster off, as in the AB can be run non stop. you no longer need that range as you can quickly run down those pesky ships.

Both fits work well. I have run missions in blaster boats where you do not get near 60km damage projection, but when coupled with a AB range is far less of an issue.

Although many EFT warrior fits are not ideal any ship that has over 500 DPS and a decent tank can run lvl 4 missions. A ship with 7-800 DPS is a good mission ship, and Some of the best mission boats can do over 1000 DPS. The key is to maximize your applied damage either thru added range or a faster ship. As long as you can tank the mission long enough to blast all the rats you are good to go. After that is is just a matter of working on your completion times to maximize your isk/hour. There is more than one way to run level 4 missions. In fact I would say there are more than 5 ways.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#32 - 2012-11-01 17:14:45 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
While I do agree that a good rule of thumb is damage protection out to 60km for level four missions. Considering many level 4 missions have BS's that orbit at 50km.

However, If you are flying a AB fit that is cap stable with the shield booster off, as in the AB can be run non stop. you no longer need that range as you can quickly run down those pesky ships.

Both fits work well. I have run missions in blaster boats where you do not get near 60km damage projection, but when coupled with a AB range is far less of an issue.

Although many EFT warrior fits are not ideal any ship that has over 500 DPS and a decent tank can run lvl 4 missions. A ship with 7-800 DPS is a good mission ship, and Some of the best mission boats can do over 1000 DPS. The key is to maximize your applied damage either thru added range or a faster ship. As long as you can tank the mission long enough to blast all the rats you are good to go. After that it is just a matter of working on your completion times to maximize your isk/hour. There is more than one way to run level 4 missions. In fact I would say there are more than 5 ways.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-11-01 17:44:46 UTC
you realize that a nightmare with afterburner still goes only ~330m/s? that's 30sec for 10km, disregarding the ~12 seconds align time.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#34 - 2012-11-01 18:29:08 UTC
[Nightmare, Missions]
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Core X-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II


Warrior II x5

Not today spaghetti.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2012-11-01 18:29:36 UTC
I have to agree with Daniel, I have used both and found tachyon's to be better than pulses in missions. I use T2 as using gleam close up works better that multi
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#36 - 2012-11-01 21:14:10 UTC
[Nightmare, L4 Missions)]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Implants:
EG-605
MR-705
EM-805
SS-905
LE-1005

1077DPS (guns only)
Range: 38+32
Tracking: .05
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-11-05 08:15:47 UTC
The problem with EFT, and any other fitting program, is that they can't factor in tracking. Although I'm sure it looks good in EFT, you're really not gaining much with that third HS (and the fourth is a joke). Beam lasers always track worse than pulse, and you'd be a lot better off removing 2 heat sinks and replacing them with 2 tracking enhancers. Also to cut cost: As a general rule of thumb don't fit more than 2 faction modules of the same type. The difference in DPS between faction and non faction, after the second module, isn't worth paying for due to stacking penalties.

Disclaimer: I don't run missions, but I do a lot of PVP and frequently out DPS corp mates that have higher skills because I'll drop a third heat sink for a tracking enhancer. The tracking formula is FUBAR, since my damage will vary while shooting something large like a POS even though I'm sitting still. However the tracking speed of your guns is factored into the damage that your non missile turrets do, even when you're sitting still and shooting a large target (so there is an even bigger difference when shooting something that's in motion).

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#38 - 2012-11-05 14:36:25 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
The problem with EFT, and any other fitting program, is that they can't factor in tracking. Although I'm sure it looks good in EFT, you're really not gaining much with that third HS (and the fourth is a joke). Beam lasers always track worse than pulse, and you'd be a lot better off removing 2 heat sinks and replacing them with 2 tracking enhancers. Also to cut cost: As a general rule of thumb don't fit more than 2 faction modules of the same type. The difference in DPS between faction and non faction, after the second module, isn't worth paying for due to stacking penalties.

Disclaimer: I don't run missions, but I do a lot of PVP and frequently out DPS corp mates that have higher skills because I'll drop a third heat sink for a tracking enhancer. The tracking formula is FUBAR, since my damage will vary while shooting something large like a POS even though I'm sitting still. However the tracking speed of your guns is factored into the damage that your non missile turrets do, even when you're sitting still and shooting a large target (so there is an even bigger difference when shooting something that's in motion).

If you're worried about cost you shouldn't be flying a nightmare. The fit I posted has 2 tracking comps, a tracking rig, a tracking enhancer, and the NM has a tracking bonus. The only thing another tracking enhancer would do is sacrifice DPS. For most L4 missions the rats spawn at range or you are able to warp in at any range you want and with almost 1100DPS you can alpha anything BC and lower. Tracking really isn't needed since the rats are burning toward you to get in their optimals anyway and their transversal is really low.

As for the tracking formula it's not broken. If you look at the formula and in your case shooting a POS you can see you would have .5 raised to a constant for a hit chance so you would almost never do the same damage consistently even if you were sitting still.

People have been debating whether pulse or beams are better for a long time. I prefer beams since I can use faction crystals which last 4 times as long as scorch and can put out 800 DPS to well over 80 KM. This is nice because I don't have to burn toward some spawns in sansha and BR missions that are 100km away. Not to mention that beam fit has the same tracking as a pulse fit using optimal range scripts in the TC and scorch.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2012-11-05 18:13:59 UTC
Here's a secret to check to see if your fit will survive mission running.. try it on the test server.. now ssshhhhh don't tell everyoneP
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-11-07 15:55:12 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
The problem with EFT, and any other fitting program, is that they can't factor in tracking.

if only there was a way to simulate tracking....

I should buy an Ishtar.
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