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When did we become as bad as Dems v. Reps?

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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-11-01 01:58:13 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Poetic, FW was ******* terrible before Inferno.
Only because of some terrible bugs (locking plex spawning) and the fact that there were zero rewards. Other than that, what was wrong with it?

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-11-01 01:59:14 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Hmmm... I started off trying to be nice in the above paragraph but, well, sorry. Pirate
Ah. So the problems stem with you! Shocked
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#23 - 2012-11-01 02:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Poetic, FW was ******* terrible before Inferno.
Only because of some terrible bugs (locking plex spawning) and the fact that there were zero rewards. Other than that, what was wrong with it?

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.



Faction war got better after inferno mainly because of the number of new people joining. (not because of any rule changes)

It would be better than now if they would go back to pre inferno except give us a set amount of lp per plex. Done. Equal for all sides and let the best faction win. But Minmatar (who have a csm member) won't have that.

They might also try to do something to make plexing more of a pvp activity. But that seems a low priority with this csm and ccp compared to giving the winning side additional advantages.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#24 - 2012-11-01 06:14:16 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.


If you solo an enemy titan, at tier one your income per hour is approximately 5 billion per hour.

The only one stopping you is you.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#25 - 2012-11-01 10:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.


That makes no sense.

Since the idea is to give to players a chance to compete for resources, occupancy and benefits for the warzone control (LP is just only a game mechanics to simulate this).

If the LP reward were the same then there were no intrest and no competition to control the warzones. On the countrary: controlling more system would simply mean having less resources (aka less plex).

Then one can say "I don't like occupancy gameplay". Fine, then do not play it.
But canno't cry and demand to shape everyone's gameplay on a personal dislike.

Nothing in eve is symmetrical, even, balanced, with identical rewards for everyone. Otherwise we go in the direction of instanced premade battlegrounds with same rewards for everyone.
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#26 - 2012-11-01 12:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuri Intaki
Vordak Kallager wrote:
I mean Christ. I remember when we were able to sit down and have a pretty decent conversation about mechanics, issues, fights, what-have-you without descending to some base level of "you suck, no you suck". It's a giant negative-feedback circlejerk that is unproductive and inefficient. Ugh


For me it started at around 2009 when gallente militia did what they did with Ankh leading them (= crossed the line between in-game & off-game). After that I didnt need much other motivation than to poison the general athmosphere of FW everywhere I could.
subtle turtle
Doozer Mining Cartel
#27 - 2012-11-02 04:03:22 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
I mean Christ. I remember when we were able to sit down and have a pretty decent conversation about mechanics, issues, fights, what-have-you without descending to some base level of "you suck, no you suck". It's a giant negative-feedback circlejerk that is unproductive and inefficient. Ugh

Personally, I've always had a lot of respect for most of the old-guard Amarr who have always been pretty reasonable and logical (besides some of the obvious nut-cases and trolls [of which there are some from all sides]), but a lot of these new guys seem to just want to pick a fight or make accusations or cry without knowing any of the history of FW. The system used to be ******* ****; now at least we're getting some love and facetime from CCP who I think have done a pretty decent job with Inferno and hoping to fix Inferno's problems with FF and Retribution. Bear



Look at it this way; every forum rant represents time and effort that would otherwise probably be put into some equally obnoxious anti-social behavior. Every time I read someone going off the deep end on the Eve-o forums I think "well, that's one less puppy that guy is going to punch in the face today."
Dan Carter Murray
#28 - 2012-11-02 10:23:36 UTC
Answer to title: because you never have to do anything for isk again and have sfi*1000 while us amarr get ****** every opportunity that the csm can unzip his pants. Oh and his female alliance mate does the pushing. Oh and npc still in your favor. Oh and your ships are lolunbalanced. Oh and war zone is lolunbalanced. Etc. etc. etc. you know the answer don't ask stupid questions.

And one more thing: it's been emotional.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Mehashi 'Kho
New Eden Motion Pictures
#29 - 2012-11-02 10:56:21 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.

Since when do PVPers spawn regularly like NPCs? The idea that you can work to an isk/lp/hr rate in pvp is fairly "lol". Maybe one day ill not kill anyone, maybe another I kill 20 in 5 minutes. That's some pretty wild fluctuation. I'd hate to see someone try to balance NPC based income to that.
Lemon Sorbet
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-11-02 15:49:44 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

I'm not suggesting that the rewards go away. Just suggesting that the rewards are not a) tiered, and b) pvp and pve rewards are roughly equal on an LP/hour basis.


That makes no sense.

Since the idea is to give to players a chance to compete for resources, occupancy and benefits for the warzone control (LP is just only a game mechanics to simulate this).

If the LP reward were the same then there were no intrest and no competition to control the warzones. On the countrary: controlling more system would simply mean having less resources (aka less plex).

Then one can say "I don't like occupancy gameplay". Fine, then do not play it.
But canno't cry and demand to shape everyone's gameplay on a personal dislike.

Nothing in eve is symmetrical, even, balanced, with identical rewards for everyone. Otherwise we go in the direction of instanced premade battlegrounds with same rewards for everyone.


You're forgetting that conveniently these are two scenarios that Poetic knows full well are not possible in time for the Dec. 4 release. He's well aware CCP is not going to throw out design work they've invested in, and well aware that there is a hard limit to PvP payouts as an income source.

He had plenty to say on the subject back in the summer, where he endorsed the modifications to the tiered payout system, and endorsed a scaled defensive plexing LP mechanic. He was active with his ideas back when it mattered in the development process, before final decisions were made. Since than, he's joined Hans's in-game enemies and now suddenly all his own ideas are out the window in favor of a no-win scenario that sets him up perfectly to declare FW a failure and write a triumphant blog post that ignores the fact that he's reversing his position on changes he previously endorsed.

Its a stupid political game that he's already admitted to playing, and if not that he simply is clueless about software development processes and the fact that if you want your opinion to matter, you insert it into the process at the right time (which Poe did, via a series of blog posts) and that you don't get to complain a month before release that someone else is to blame when there are mechanics he recommended that are in the Dec. patch.

Even things like geography changes are extremely convenient things for him to demand suddenly, because he now knows that they won't make it in time for Dec. 4 either. He waited till after Hans came on the Fweddit talk and stated that it wouldn't be in the initial release (same with equivalent PvP payouts across factions) and so suddenly these are the "must-haves" that Hans is "dropping the ball" on. Once again, these are all things that if they truly mattered to Poe he could have brought them up months ago, instead of promoting other iterations instead.

His sad, fail attempt at "meta-gaming" is as translucent as glass to anyone that's actually been following along, and I think its pretty clear he either doesn't really care about how this turns out, or he's clueless about how to be an effective agent of change.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#31 - 2012-11-02 17:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
Well having been in Caldari, Amarr and Minnie with a couple alts I can honestly say the people on each side are pretty much the same.

Each one has its assholes, idiots, nice guys and also's. Fw is just a box to pvp in, the people are a lot alike and would, could and have banded together to fight.

Generally I always found the he said, she said, you suck, no you suck. Mostly came from the Assholes and Idiots. People who are easily ignored.

However I don't miss it, as towards the end, there were more idiots then anything else and who has the time to care about them.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Ginger Barbarella
#32 - 2012-11-02 19:01:25 UTC
Personally, I think CCP's attempts to "fix" FW, while well-intentioned, created bigger issues that annoyed many. (Myself included)

I bailed on FW when the massive farming started and the accompanying boolshite with everybody and their brother having alts in every faction. I've only ever been in Minnie FW, and no desire to go elsewhere. I'll be rejoining shortly to check out the recent fixes.

I'd suggest a round-table of THE COMMUNITY (not the agenda-laden CSM) to build a list of what's good, what's bad, and what would be nice for faction warfare... but I think we all know how well that will go (read: "the squeeky wheel...")

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#33 - 2012-11-02 19:36:20 UTC
I have not gotten into faction wars myself. But I believe an objective opinion might be worth something.

It is a fact that the current system really rewards the wining side with better PVE isk/hour.

However Faction Wars is supposed to be PVP content. Looking at it from another view point it is actually very balanced. Before judging my statement please read the rest of my post.

Another fact is there are many PVPers that are looking for good fights and couldn't care less about the PVE isk/hour of faction wars. So if the winning side is drawing in a lot of members then logically this is a driving factor for those looking for PVP to join the opposing faction as they will then have more targets.

The balance will start shifting as the numerous PVE FW bears on the wining faction will be getting there butts kicked by the elite PVPers that joined the other side in their quest for PVP targets. Once these PVPers do enough damage the power will start to shift as more and more of the FW farmers switch over to avoid getting killed. As the power shifts to the other side it will eventually reach the point where there is more isk/hr to be farmed on that side. At this point more and more FW farmers will switch sides taking that faction to the top.

Once that becomes the popular faction then the PVPers will switch to the other side as most of there targets are now on their side. This will start the cycle over again. Faction Wars will continue to flow with power shifting from one side to the other with no further actual game changes. Just by letting the players adapt to the new system. Give it some time. it will happen.

With the current system in place, although very out of whack right now, once the dust settles the FW farmers should be drawn to the wining faction for the bonus isk/hr. While the FW PVPers should be drawn to the losing faction for the increased targets. It is a win win. As the ancient proverb say "It is better to send 1 Lion than 100 sheep." This is also true when comparing PVPers to Farmers in an MMO. It will only take a small number of PVPers to shift the balance and start building up the losing side. The power should continue to shift without ever settling, as long as there are PVPers joining the losing side looking to maximize the number of targets.

I could be way off on this, but it seems to make sense based on my many years of experience playing many different MMO's. The PVPers always go where the targets are. When the targets move so do the PVPers.
Vordak Kallager
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#34 - 2012-11-02 22:46:13 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Well having been in Caldari, Amarr and Minnie with a couple alts I can honestly say the people on each side are pretty much the same.

Each one has its assholes, idiots, nice guys and also's. Fw is just a box to pvp in, the people are a lot alike and would, could and have banded together to fight.

Generally I always found the he said, she said, you suck, no you suck. Mostly came from the Assholes and Idiots. People who are easily ignored.

However I don't miss it, as towards the end, there were more idiots then anything else and who has the time to care about them.


Miss you Sync. <3 Send Cap1 my love.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Dan Carter Murray
#35 - 2012-11-03 01:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dan Carter Murray
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

The PVPers always go where the targets are. When the targets move so do the PVPers.


Nice analysis, but 0 alliances or major corporations from minmatar FW have swapped to amarr to get more fights.

So unfortunately, although your theory is sound, in practice it is not.

Winmatar often make ridiculous and laughable statements...they normall start with

Some dumb **** minmatar wrote:

"I want more pew but won't swap sides because"


and end with one of the following:


  • For bullshit RP reasons I can't swap sides
  • I HAVE FRIENDS...I DON'T WANT TO SHOOT MY FRIENDS...I NEVER PLAYED SPORTS AGAINST MY FRIENDS GROWING UP...WHAT IS THIS PLAYING AGAINST YOUR FRIENDS NONSENSE YOU SPEAK OF
  • But how am I supposed to make isk?
  • Missiles hurt me in plexes and the minmatar shoot them...lasers may run like maze but they hit ****.
  • eventually I'll run out of stabber fleet issues and don't know how to actually fly ships that require more than hitting approach and fire.
  • i've been minmatar so long...if i leave now...(no one will give a **** if you leave)
  • I don't know where my balls are
  • The winmatar militia draft board has misplaced my balls
  • I didn't read the form when I signed up for winmatar and accidentally checked the box that said "castrate" instead of "temporarily remove"
  • I HAVE TO DO MORE THAN 1 MINOR TO PAY FOR A ******* FACTION BATTLESHIP WITH MY LP??!?!?!!11/?!oneone
  • i will have to face swarms of stabber fleet issues backed by logi and blackbirds...and the amarr most of the time have half the numbers and can't counter the 25/5/5 SFI/BB/LOGI gang
  • I'm scared of pvp that takes risk
  • I don't know what risk means, and I'm scared of things I know nothing about
  • many amarr pilots likes to go out and fight solo a lot...and i don't know how to fight solo
  • i don't want to die in eszur...to the no-skill militia guys there....
  • etc. etc. etc.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#36 - 2012-11-03 01:58:52 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
I have not gotten into faction wars myself. But I believe an objective opinion might be worth something.

It is a fact that the current system really rewards the wining side with better PVE isk/hour.

However Faction Wars is supposed to be PVP content. Looking at it from another view point it is actually very balanced. Before judging my statement please read the rest of my post.

Another fact is there are many PVPers that are looking for good fights and couldn't care less about the PVE isk/hour of faction wars. So if the winning side is drawing in a lot of members then logically this is a driving factor for those looking for PVP to join the opposing faction as they will then have more targets.

The balance will start shifting as the numerous PVE FW bears on the wining faction will be getting there butts kicked by the elite PVPers that joined the other side in their quest for PVP targets. Once these PVPers do enough damage the power will start to shift as more and more of the FW farmers switch over to avoid getting killed. As the power shifts to the other side it will eventually reach the point where there is more isk/hr to be farmed on that side. At this point more and more FW farmers will switch sides taking that faction to the top.

Once that becomes the popular faction then the PVPers will switch to the other side as most of there targets are now on their side. This will start the cycle over again. Faction Wars will continue to flow with power shifting from one side to the other with no further actual game changes. Just by letting the players adapt to the new system. Give it some time. it will happen.

With the current system in place, although very out of whack right now, once the dust settles the FW farmers should be drawn to the wining faction for the bonus isk/hr. While the FW PVPers should be drawn to the losing faction for the increased targets. It is a win win. As the ancient proverb say "It is better to send 1 Lion than 100 sheep." This is also true when comparing PVPers to Farmers in an MMO. It will only take a small number of PVPers to shift the balance and start building up the losing side. The power should continue to shift without ever settling, as long as there are PVPers joining the losing side looking to maximize the number of targets.

I could be way off on this, but it seems to make sense based on my many years of experience playing many different MMO's. The PVPers always go where the targets are. When the targets move so do the PVPers.


That actually sort of sounds like the theory soundwave suggested. But it seems not to be working. Minmatar have had the economic edge since inferno and the numbers gap keeps growing in their favor. They lost none of the main pvp corps or alliances. Amarr lost allot of theirs. Minmatar also gained a bunch of occupancy farmers.

Maybe we haven't given it enough time. But how long should it take for the shift to start?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-11-05 10:12:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
I think CCP underestimated the power of traders and made a mistake by leaving implants in the FW LP stores.

From my POV the idea always was:

Faction A wins -> Faction A gets a lot of LP and high ISK/LP -> Faction A keeps winning -> LP store items for Faction A crash hard due to over-supply -> people switch to Faction B following the economic incentive -> Faction B starts winning -> ...

This scheme makes success meaningful by rewarding it with high income - for a time.
As more and more people jump on the bandwagon, ISK/LP deteriorates until it becomes more efficient to push the opposing Faction B to tier 4/5 and give the market for items from Faction A's LP store time to recover.

.
Mra Rednu
Vanishing Point.
#38 - 2012-11-05 10:19:49 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
I think CCP underestimated the power of traders and made a mistake by leaving implants in the FW LP stores.

From my POV the idea always was:

Faction A wins -> Faction A gets a lot of LP and high ISK/LP -> Faction A keeps winning -> LP store items for Faction A crash hard due to over-supply -> people switch to Faction B following the economic incentive -> Faction B starts winning -> ...

This scheme makes success meaningful by rewarding it with high income - for a time.
As more and more people jump on the bandwagon, ISK/LP deteriorates until it becomes more efficient to push the opposing Faction B to tier 4/5 and give the market for items from Faction A's LP store time to recover.


You seem to grasp the farming side of FW but not the FW side of FW.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#39 - 2012-11-05 11:45:01 UTC
"You've got plenty of amarrians to shoot at and you're making money hand over fist. You should swap sides to help out the poor hard-done-to enemy"

.....

.....

...LOL no.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-11-05 12:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
damned kids skateboarding on our sidewalks!

also about the balance thing before inferno when all things were equal the differences were slight, when isk tips the scales you are simply always going to have trouble maintaining an equal attraction level to both sides.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.