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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Author
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5741 - 2012-10-31 20:36:58 UTC
much better iteration of missles there fozzie keep up the good work.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5742 - 2012-10-31 21:18:44 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh, this is my very last answer to you in this thread about this topic (Raven/PvP): go skill for it and use it. And then maybe get a small clue about how those magic numbers feel on the server in Caldari missile PvP. You will then maybe also see why this game is *not* Drake online, even if the numbers look so nice ...

Cool, See you in six months...

Or, you could enlighten everybody with your expertise in missiles and the Raven, and explain things to everybody. I am really interested in learning what these problems are in fact, and by the time you answer this question always the same way, you have been better answering it for real one or two times.
Lili Lu
#5743 - 2012-10-31 21:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Hey Noemi,

Just wanted to post about eve-kill. It was my arguments using eve-kill stats early on against your arguments. Then you started latching onto the same source when the heavy use of Zealots was manifesting early in the month. But here we are at the end of October and well, Drakes and Tengus back in their usual places, as I predicted.

1 Drake 116441
2 Maelstrom 99206
3 Tengu 82116
4 Zealot 73939
5 Rokh 73727
6 Tornado 69141
7 Hurricane 66027
8 Naga 49695

Also, lookey there. Even if the heavy missile boats drop in usuage by whatever amount after the nerf, there would still be two other Caldari ships in the top 8. So while presently, half the top 8 ships are Caldari, even if the nerf totally knocks the two HM boats out Caldari will have appropriate representation.

Anyway, I don't think these changes will totally pull either ship out of the top 20. And as the whole process progresses the focus should shift off of Caldari's and missiles' place and frankly more to Amarr and especially Gallente.

Say hi to ROU, when you next see him.P

LiLu
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#5744 - 2012-10-31 22:04:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Update to the plan everyone. Gonna call this version 2.1 since the change is a bit less significant than the last.

After consideration we agree that the range reduction to Fury missiles was too severe in the earlier versions so we are re-adjusting them to 75% of the flight time of T1. This means they will still have a shorter range than their current stats on TQ but that reduction will be much more moderate. The OP and spreadsheet have both been updated.

The new stats should get ported into our next testing release on Duality which we expect to happen in the near future. Thanks as always to everyone helping us refine these changes.


Nice to see you think that one over. P
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5745 - 2012-11-01 00:46:14 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

Just wanted to post about eve-kill. It was my arguments using eve-kill stats early on against your arguments. Then you started latching onto the same source when the heavy use of Zealots was manifesting early in the month. But here we are at the end of October and well, Drakes and Tengus back in their usual places, as I predicted.

1 Drake 116441
2 Maelstrom 99206
3 Tengu 82116
4 Zealot 73939
5 Rokh 73727
6 Tornado 69141
7 Hurricane 66027
8 Naga 49695

Also, lookey there. Even if the heavy missile boats drop in usuage by whatever amount after the nerf, there would still be two other Caldari ships in the top 8. So while presently, half the top 8 ships are Caldari, even if the nerf totally knocks the two HM boats out Caldari will have appropriate representation.


I was not the first here who responded to your first use of Eve-kill and what it really shows. You have been explained before what you can see in this numbers and what not. Its pointless to go through this again, you have showed in other postings you are intelligent enough to understand, so if you refuse to admit that here I can see your intentions :)

Apart from that, it has been also explained to you why there are 2 missile hulls showing so much - every single Caldari missile user will have to use them if he wants to be competitive. Its pretty revealing you just take the top 8 and not top 20 too, and also ignore top 20 for weapons :) but yeah, I know how you play the game. Just dont assume I will play by your rules.

And - my and others "whining" (how you called it) or better solid argument seemed to work, the changes will get overworked again. So no, you did not win, not for now, and not for later ;)

PS: ROU will love to post here if you accept your part of the deal :D
Lili Lu
#5746 - 2012-11-01 01:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I was not the first here who responded to your first use of Eve-kill and what it really shows. You have been explained before what you can see in this numbers and what not. Its pointless to go through this again, you have showed in other postings you are intelligent enough to understand, so if you refuse to admit that here I can see your intentions :)


Yeah you tried. But you have no evidence for what you say, that it just shows nullsec use. Some percentage of it's stats come from nullsec use. But neither of us can say what percentage. Thus your assertion that it is all nullsec numbers is without foundation. I don't pretend or profess to know what the percentages are for nullsec v other security levels of space. Eve-kill is open to all corps and alliances no matter what region of space they inhabit. It is what it is, whatever it is, and whatever it is is about our only representative sample of ship usage available to the public, whether that sample is lightly skewed, heavily skewed, or trully representative. It would be nice if it broke down kills by security or region of space. Maybe some day it will.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Apart from that, it has been also explained to you why there are 2 missile hulls showing so much - every single Caldari missile user will have to use them if he wants to be competitive. Its pretty revealing you just take the top 8 and not top 20 too, and also ignore top 20 for weapons :) but yeah, I know how you play the game. Just dont assume I will play by your rules.


What rules are you referring to? The top 20 for weapons has no medium long range weapon anywhere near the numbers of HMLs. To what are you referring? Oh, I bet I know, you want to lump in all projectiles, large long range, large short range, medium long range, medium short range, and even small short range and then compare that collective number against HML II. You keep making the same mistake. And quite possibly the lack of other missiles on that list is partially an artifact of the op'd measuring up of HMs to other missiles. Oh well, we will see when the changes come into the game. I think there will be some HAM use entering the top twenty. And when BSs and BS weapons are rebalanced we could see other missiles on the list as well. Time will tell.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
And - my and others "whining" (how you called it) or better solid argument seemed to work, the changes will get overworked again. So no, you did not win, not for now, and not for later ;)

PS: ROU will love to post here if you accept your part of the deal :D


Pfft. "Accept?" What deal? You tried to deflect mine and other's disbelief of your pvp alt claim. Noone, and definitely not I, ever "agreed" to your demand that if you posted with your alleged character that has some pvp record that we would ever "leave this thread" to your unchallenged flawed arguments and whining. Your attempt at a requirement to post with ROU only shows that you can't post with that character, and thus have no pvp experience.

Regardless, I really don't care if you were somehow able to. The only thing I did say it would do concerning me is prove me wrong in my assertion that you have no pvp experience. Come on Noemi, don't you want to put at least that egg on my face. Post with ROU "I am Noemi Nagano" At least you will be able to make your posts with some evidence that you know something about missiles and guns in pvp and aren't just blowing out your ass.P
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5747 - 2012-11-01 01:33:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Update to the plan everyone. Gonna call this version 2.1 since the change is a bit less significant than the last.

After consideration we agree that the range reduction to Fury missiles was too severe in the earlier versions so we are re-adjusting them to 75% of the flight time of T1. This means they will still have a shorter range than their current stats on TQ but that reduction will be much more moderate. The OP and spreadsheet have both been updated.

The new stats should get ported into our next testing release on Duality which we expect to happen in the near future. Thanks as always to everyone helping us refine these changes.


Great Work Foozie !!!!!!!!!
I look forward to testing the new changes this does seem allot more reasonable.
Once tested I am sure you will get feed back from the people who have logged onto test and tried it out, not just the EFT warriors and projectile junkies.
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5748 - 2012-11-01 01:43:39 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Hey Noemi,

Just wanted to post about eve-kill. It was my arguments using eve-kill stats early on against your arguments. Then you started latching onto the same source when the heavy use of Zealots was manifesting early in the month. But here we are at the end of October and well, Drakes and Tengus back in their usual places, as I predicted.

1 Drake 116441
2 Maelstrom 99206
3 Tengu 82116
4 Zealot 73939
5 Rokh 73727
6 Tornado 69141
7 Hurricane 66027
8 Naga 49695

Also, lookey there. Even if the heavy missile boats drop in usuage by whatever amount after the nerf, there would still be two other Caldari ships in the top 8. So while presently, half the top 8 ships are Caldari, even if the nerf totally knocks the two HM boats out Caldari will have appropriate representation.

Anyway, I don't think these changes will totally pull either ship out of the top 20. And as the whole process progresses the focus should shift off of Caldari's and missiles' place and frankly more to Amarr and especially Gallente.

Say hi to ROU, when you next see him.P

LiLu


Why not post the entire top 20 and see most of them are Winmatarr ships ? In fact just shy of 50% make up this list.
And the same thing happens with weapons systems and projectiles.
At any rate the cane was just a start to the bombardment of nerfs that are coming to a projectile winmatarr ship near you.

The fact is DEV made the right call with rebalancing the nerf,
they listened to the people who went onto test and tried the changes for them self and made adjustments.
Fozzie you made the right call I commend you for taking the time to read the forums and make the right call. Big smile
I'm Down
Perkone
Caldari State
#5749 - 2012-11-01 02:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Cazador 64 wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Hey Noemi,

Just wanted to post about eve-kill. It was my arguments using eve-kill stats early on against your arguments. Then you started latching onto the same source when the heavy use of Zealots was manifesting early in the month. But here we are at the end of October and well, Drakes and Tengus back in their usual places, as I predicted.

1 Drake 116441
2 Maelstrom 99206
3 Tengu 82116
4 Zealot 73939
5 Rokh 73727
6 Tornado 69141
7 Hurricane 66027
8 Naga 49695

Also, lookey there. Even if the heavy missile boats drop in usuage by whatever amount after the nerf, there would still be two other Caldari ships in the top 8. So while presently, half the top 8 ships are Caldari, even if the nerf totally knocks the two HM boats out Caldari will have appropriate representation.

Anyway, I don't think these changes will totally pull either ship out of the top 20. And as the whole process progresses the focus should shift off of Caldari's and missiles' place and frankly more to Amarr and especially Gallente.

Say hi to ROU, when you next see him.P

LiLu


Why not post the entire top 20 and see most of them are Winmatarr ships ? In fact just shy of 50% make up this list.
And the same thing happens with weapons systems and projectiles.
At any rate the cane was just a start to the bombardment of nerfs that are coming to a projectile winmatarr ship near you.

The fact is DEV made the right call with rebalancing the nerf,
they listened to the people who went onto test and tried the changes for them self and made adjustments.
Fozzie you made the right call I commend you for taking the time to read the forums and make the right call. Big smile



If you're having to test dps, range, speed, tank, etc e on a drake on sisi then you must be pretty new or inexerienced in combat.

Combat heavy players know the ins and outs of range, speed, and dps pretty well just from years of experience to know how most fights will go. The reason I hate "sisi testers" is that most of them use impractical setups that you almost never see in game. They also almost always center around solo or very small group combat vs unorganized opponents. How is any of that accurate testing... please do tell?

If anything, it makes the feedback thread horribly innaccurate and full of sisi consensus, not real eve consensus on mechanical flaws in designs. This is why almost every patch we hear "but we tested on sisi.... who knew the live server would be different" quotes from some devs and usually the older more chill devs saying... "you know we can't test this **** accurately on sisi"

So please, for the love of god stop quoting Sisi like it's god.

Beyond that, Every step Fozzie has taken has been a revision towards the original missiles minus some range so far.... how many more revisions til he realizes maybe range was enough to start with.... I'm sorta convinced the devs won't let me win this fight on principle alone since I've called them so many hurtful names.
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5750 - 2012-11-01 09:28:23 UTC
I'm Down wrote:

The reason I hate "sisi testers" is that most of them use impractical setups that you almost never see in game.

Sorta Like the EFT warriors except with real numbers ok I fail to see your point here.

I'm Down wrote:

So please, for the love of god stop quoting Sisi like it's god.

request denied

I'm Down wrote:

I'm sorta convinced the devs won't let me win this fight on principle alone since I've called them so many hurtful names.


Unless I am reading you wrong you seem to be attributing these changes to something you have said or did.
If that is the case then thanks for the laugh.
I do not think I have read anything useful of yours.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5751 - 2012-11-01 12:03:23 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Hey Noemi,

Just wanted to post about eve-kill. It was my arguments using eve-kill stats early on against your arguments. Then you started latching onto the same source when the heavy use of Zealots was manifesting early in the month. But here we are at the end of October and well, Drakes and Tengus back in their usual places, as I predicted.

1 Drake 116441
2 Maelstrom 99206
3 Tengu 82116
4 Zealot 73939
5 Rokh 73727
6 Tornado 69141
7 Hurricane 66027
8 Naga 49695

Also, lookey there. Even if the heavy missile boats drop in usuage by whatever amount after the nerf, there would still be two other Caldari ships in the top 8. So while presently, half the top 8 ships are Caldari, even if the nerf totally knocks the two HM boats out Caldari will have appropriate representation.

Anyway, I don't think these changes will totally pull either ship out of the top 20. And as the whole process progresses the focus should shift off of Caldari's and missiles' place and frankly more to Amarr and especially Gallente.

Say hi to ROU, when you next see him.P

LiLu


That list doestn really tell much. Only thing it tells is that big null alliances uses alot drakes, maels, tengus, zealots, rokhs, nados and canes. You understand what happens if there fleet of 500 drakes getting 30kills/fight each...

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5752 - 2012-11-01 12:09:40 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Sorta Like the EFT warriors except with real numbers ok I fail to see your point here.

EFT Numbers are real numbers. Sisi is good to test the "enough", "too bad" and the like, the relative things the numbers hardly tell and the analogic things like piloting. Though, numbers never lie, and in the case of missiles it's even more true, as missile damage formula do not rely on your piloting.

Damage nerf to HML is needed though IMO, at least to allow medLR turret to survive.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5753 - 2012-11-01 12:24:46 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:
That list doestn really tell much. Only thing it tells is that big null alliances uses alot drakes, maels, tengus, zealots, rokhs, nados and canes. You understand what happens if there fleet of 500 drakes getting 30kills/fight each...

Just look at any pvp corp killboard. You will then see that the Drake and the Hurricane hold the top place. HML Drake and AC/dualneut Hurricanes are way too versatile. But above all, I think it's their ability to kill frigates which make them so popular even in lowsec. On top of that, the hurricane is a cruiser with BC tank/gank and unkitable, and the drake is a BC with uber tank and cruiser gank, at every usable range.

Cane is being nerfed, and I hope that will be enough ; drake is not, because nerfing it may kill HAM drake whereas nerfing HML hit the real strength of the ship : versatily (both in damage,damage application and range, they are all overall too good with HML) and frigate imunity.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5754 - 2012-11-01 13:02:14 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
At this rate all the nerfs will eventually disappear...

This change does not affect the other heavy missiles, just the Fury variants of each long range missile. The general range nerf to HMs still applies and the 75% number is in relation to the post-patch T1 heavies.

Fozzie, I appreciate the response, and I think you guys are doing great work with tiericide. I wonder, though, how you intend to balance HMLs when you reintroduce the idea for TC/TEs to affect them.

Part of your original "sale" for the nerfs was essentially that HMLs would be nerfed, but you could choose less tank/gank to increase the range/tracking to what you had before, and part of that cost would be increased susceptibility to TDs. That, to me, seemed balanced. As balanced as the choice is for every other pilot in the game that uses turrets for their damage application.

By continuing to whittle away at the nerfs--and I'm not saying there didn't need to be some adjustment--how can you look ahead and think that the introduction of TC/TEs won't break or overbuff HMLs and create much of the same problems that existed before these nerfs?




1. caldari ships are slow and bulky



2. as he already said for pvp he inteands us to use faction ammo (witch with range and dmg reduction and dmg aplication nerf is probably what will happen).



3. hml fury take both a base dmg nerf and that explosive radius need 2 missle rigs to get into criuser sig radius

4. thel fury although 75% velocity of t1 probably works out closer to about a 30% range nerf
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5755 - 2012-11-01 13:16:39 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:




1. caldari ships are slow and bulky



2. as he already said for pvp he inteands us to use faction ammo (witch with range and dmg reduction and dmg aplication nerf is probably what will happen).



3. hml fury take both a base dmg nerf and that explosive radius need 2 missle rigs to get into criuser sig radius

4. thel fury although 75% velocity of t1 probably works out closer to about a 30% range nerf[/quote]

Yes a explosion radius of 180 is so much larger then a cruiser. Esp if its running its MWD

Smallest cruiser sig is 108 and that is the scythe most are 120 and larger and if its a shield boat it will get even larger with LSE and rigs
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5756 - 2012-11-01 13:17:44 UTC
serras bang wrote:
3. hml fury take both a base dmg nerf and that explosive radius need 2 missle rigs to get into criuser sig radius

That is wrong. I made the maths. Feel free to look in this threadnaught to find them (page ~280). Basicaly, for anything above 150m sig radius, Fury HML are the best ammo to use. That mean any shield buffered cruiser, and every BC and above. Get a TP, and this is the ultimate ammo to use unless you need *even more* range or face a destroyer or frigate.

I personnaly think it's too much for a T2 ammo, and that almost negate the damage nerf, but well...
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5757 - 2012-11-01 13:18:25 UTC
serras bang wrote:
1. caldari ships are slow and bulky


Not compared to armor tanked Amarr ships.

serras bang wrote:
3. hml fury take both a base dmg nerf and that explosive radius need 2 missle rigs to get into criuser sig radius


Or just use a target painter...
Lili Lu
#5758 - 2012-11-01 20:18:54 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:
That list doestn really tell much. Only thing it tells is that big null alliances uses alot drakes, maels, tengus, zealots, rokhs, nados and canes. You understand what happens if there fleet of 500 drakes getting 30kills/fight each...



Roll You sound like Noemi. All I'm going to do is copy and paste something I wrote in response to Noemi's similar unfounded assertion. Enjoy,

"But you have no evidence for what you say, that it just shows nullsec use. Some percentage of it's stats come from nullsec use. But neither of us can say what percentage. Thus your assertion that it is all nullsec numbers is without foundation. I don't pretend or profess to know what the percentages are for nullsec v other security levels of space. Eve-kill is open to all corps and alliances no matter what region of space they inhabit. It is what it is, whatever it is, and whatever it is is about our only representative sample of ship usage available to the public, whether that sample is lightly skewed, heavily skewed, or trully representative. It would be nice if it broke down kills by security or region of space. Maybe some day it will."
Lili Lu
#5759 - 2012-11-01 20:25:43 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Why not post the entire top 20 and see most of them are Winmatarr ships ? In fact just shy of 50% make up this list.
And the same thing happens with weapons systems and projectiles.
At any rate the cane was just a start to the bombardment of nerfs that are coming to a projectile winmatarr ship near you.

The fact is DEV made the right call with rebalancing the nerf,
they listened to the people who went onto test and tried the changes for them self and made adjustments.
Fozzie you made the right call I commend you for taking the time to read the forums and make the right call. Big smile


Because posting the entire top twenty is effort.Straight

Anyway you keep trying to satisfy yourself that I am some Minmatar chauvanist like you are a Caldari chauvanist. You are mistaken. I don't care if there are future adjustments to Minmatar weapons. I don't self identify in this game or rl like some of you appear to do with any in-game race. I outgrew any in-game affiliation within my first year, and started crosstraining and even got a second account for the other two races of ships.

As I've said multiple times in this thread I think it is the overdone TE buff that is the source of the Minmatar strengths in the current game. Maybe that will be addressed. But if and when doesn't matter for this thread in that you could be entirely correct that projectiles need a nerf and it would not invalidate any of the nerf on missiles or the coming direct nerfs to the Drake. Enjoy.Smile
MeowMix1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5760 - 2012-11-01 21:08:54 UTC
As all of you in your infinite wisdom, or lack thereof, failed to heed my prior post, I demand CCP to truly balance this game instead of this questionable piecemeal approach.

1) Lower ROF of all guns by 25%
2) Reduce Marauder bonus of 100% to 50%
3) All rats should be able to jam, scram, web and neut and bounties reduced by at least 90%
4) All missions, except for l1 maybe, should be moved out of high-sec
5) No more mining in high-sec (just like Jita was depleted)
6) Re-nerf Incursions
7) Make WHs less profitable

Basically, the only legitimate way to make ISK in game should be to sell PLEX.

Everyone should applaud these changes as it would increase CCP’s profitability as well as getting rid of all those bots, because you know all miners and mission runners are bots.