These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Faction Warfare - Fixing Amarr/Minmatar Geography

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#41 - 2012-10-31 13:19:41 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Simply no!

The geography is good as it is...

So the fact that the Shakorites from the outset have some 50% more systems and that all those "extra" systems are effectively inaccessible due to distance, maze like space lanes and multiple chokes while all of the Amarr native systems are laid out in a pretty as can be double donut with multiple intersections .. is what you consider OK?


Wait I thought those were originally Amarr systems that we are just trying to regain control of. Blink

Actually "stargate gate", despite having multiple gates in the title, is not that big of a scandal. Amarr can take over these areas if we want. Both sides have access through low and high sec bases. There were indeed bigger issues that hans had, and still has, to deal with. Adding a stargate will be nice but its not going to matter much.

The problem is the losing side makes half the income of the winning side for every occupancy related activity! There is no equal lp payout and hope that you can make it worth something. Its just straight up paying the minmatar 2xs as much for every occupancy activity.

Now minmatar no longer even need to come in and fight for plexes. To the extent we make them more contested we just give them more lp when they defensive plex after we leave. So occupancy involves less pvp.

Seriously Amarr should just let the minmatar take all the systems and be done with it. Otherwise everytime we earn a dollar we basically give the enemy 2 dollars. At least force the minmatar roll alts to contest the system if they want to milk it - we shoudln't play amarr alts for them.

Its just dumb to keep playing this occupancy game as it is currently set up. They rigged the rules so all the economic balance favors them. Why should we help them profit from these rules?


Seriously Susan Jagerblitzin, just ask ccp if we can access our militia stations so each side can still make money running missions. Don't have the mission pay increase with tiers and we can all ignore occupancy like we did pre inferno.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#42 - 2012-10-31 13:38:34 UTC
Let me get my cauldron out.

Overwhelming amount of Amarr Tears in this thread.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#43 - 2012-10-31 13:40:43 UTC
Cearain wrote:
just ask ccp if we can access our militia stations so each side can still make money running missions.


Oh get real, all you amarr have minmatar alts anyway.

And then once you're done farming minnie LP all day you come on here and whine about farmers, exploits and how the system is biased against you.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#44 - 2012-10-31 13:58:34 UTC
Cearain wrote:

The problem is the losing side makes half the income of the winning side for every occupancy related activity! There is no equal lp payout and hope that you can make it worth something. Its just straight up paying the minmatar 2xs as much for every occupancy activity.

Now minmatar no longer even need to come in and fight for plexes. To the extent we make them more contested we just give them more lp when they defensive plex after we leave. So occupancy involves less pvp.

Seriously Amarr should just let the minmatar take all the systems and be done with it. Otherwise everytime we earn a dollar we basically give the enemy 2 dollars. At least force the minmatar roll alts to contest the system if they want to milk it - we shoudln't play amarr alts for them.


This is a milkmaid calculation what you are doing here. You completely forget these things:

  1. Keeping up tier 4 or higher takes a lot of LP which have to be donated. So for the more LP you get you also have to spend more LP to keep this going especially if the enemy (Amarr) are running plexes and thus melting the tier slowly.
  2. The more LP from one faction are on the market the lower the prices for the products you can trade for them get. Which means that the ISK/LP ratio gets reduced.
  3. Finally, it is much earier to find a quiet place to run a plex (in case LP-farming is what you are looking for) if you have many systems to choose from then if there are only a few of them left.


So stop moaning in forums and start contesting systems!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#45 - 2012-10-31 14:04:52 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Cearain wrote:
just ask ccp if we can access our militia stations so each side can still make money running missions.


Oh get real, all you amarr have minmatar alts anyway.

And then once you're done farming minnie LP all day you come on here and whine about farmers, exploits and how the system is biased against you.



Some do have minmatar alts no doubt. But others don't or at least not alts with skills enough to run level 4 missions.

The system as it stands now is exactly what minmatar want. It will secure their winning position because amarr would be foolish to continue to fight the occupancy war. Every isk we make from doing a plex will me 2 isk for the minmatar.


Our optimal plan of action is just let minmatar take all systems and never contest them again. That way minmatar can no longer profit from this minmatar slanted rule set and we can just pvp on equal terms.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#46 - 2012-10-31 14:05:15 UTC
Cearain wrote:
[quote=Sura Sadiva]
Still fw occupancy is not a pvp mechanic.(after all the talk about it from our csm rep) But minmatar will permanently get a direct 2xs the pay for every plex so you should be happy.


I don't care, I know is hard to believe but I don't care. I'd play minmatarr anyway, ISK are a tool, not the final goal, and you'd be surprised to see how poor is my wallet.

One can like or dislike it but FW is designed as an hybrid PVP/PVE, so both these components have to be considerated and the idea to have factions competing and fightin to gain occupancy and so control resources is good. Till the FW income opportunities is enough to sustain the costs of PvP is ok.

I agree that plex and misison shoulod be changed to be more risky and to create more PvP opportunities but this topic is not about this. Is about you (not you personally) loosing systems (and I'm sorry if "your" people prefer to support enemy militia playing farming alts instead of fighting for the systems) and instead of doing anything to outplay minmatar you come to whine on the forum about how partisan and manipulated by CCP is the map design (of course it becomes "partisan" if you don't do anything to defend systems cause your people is too busy farming with some alt).

Is like to play Risiko and then complaining "mom, is a plot against me, they cheat, I loose cause they have more tanks and terrirories than me".
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#47 - 2012-10-31 14:10:18 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Cearain wrote:

The problem is the losing side makes half the income of the winning side for every occupancy related activity! There is no equal lp payout and hope that you can make it worth something. Its just straight up paying the minmatar 2xs as much for every occupancy activity.

Now minmatar no longer even need to come in and fight for plexes. To the extent we make them more contested we just give them more lp when they defensive plex after we leave. So occupancy involves less pvp.

Seriously Amarr should just let the minmatar take all the systems and be done with it. Otherwise everytime we earn a dollar we basically give the enemy 2 dollars. At least force the minmatar roll alts to contest the system if they want to milk it - we shoudln't play amarr alts for them.


This is a milkmaid calculation what you are doing here. You completely forget these things:

  1. Keeping up tier 4 or higher takes a lot of LP which have to be donated. So for the more LP you get you also have to spend more LP to keep this going especially if the enemy (Amarr) are running plexes and thus melting the tier slowly.
  2. The more LP from one faction are on the market the lower the prices for the products you can trade for them get. Which means that the ISK/LP ratio gets reduced.
  3. Finally, it is much earier to find a quiet place to run a plex (in case LP-farming is what you are looking for) if you have many systems to choose from then if there are only a few of them left.


So stop moaning in forums and start contesting systems!



Regardless of the points you make (which have very little impact) the bottom line is still this:

Every isk we can make from the occupancy war minmatar can make double for doing the same thing.

I am sure you would like me to get out there and start contesting systems so you can start making bank. If you want to make bank on this you will have to roll alts and have them do the work for you. I am not going waste my time doing the thankless task so you can make double.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#48 - 2012-10-31 14:21:21 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Cearain wrote:
[quote=Sura Sadiva]
Still fw occupancy is not a pvp mechanic.(after all the talk about it from our csm rep) But minmatar will permanently get a direct 2xs the pay for every plex so you should be happy.


I don't care, I know is hard to believe but I don't care. I'd play minmatarr anyway, ISK are a tool, not the final goal, and you'd be surprised to see how poor is my wallet.

One can like or dislike it but FW is designed as an hybrid PVP/PVE, so both these components have to be considerated and the idea to have factions competing and fightin to gain occupancy and so control resources is good. Till the FW income opportunities is enough to sustain the costs of PvP is ok.

I agree that plex and misison shoulod be changed to be more risky and to create more PvP opportunities but this topic is not about this. Is about you (not you personally) loosing systems (and I'm sorry if "your" people prefer to support enemy militia playing farming alts instead of fighting for the systems) and instead of doing anything to outplay minmatar you come to whine on the forum about how partisan and manipulated by CCP is the map design (of course it becomes "partisan" if you don't do anything to defend systems cause your people is too busy farming with some alt).

Is like to play Risiko and then complaining "mom, is a plot against me, they cheat, I loose cause they have more tanks and terrirories than me".



Your anecdotal claim about how you personally don't care about isk means nothing in light of the overwhelming data that economics is a big influence on which side people choose to fight for.

The well established fact is that if eve players are given an option between fighting for side A or B when side A pays more they choose side A. Look at how many more people joined minmatar versus amarr. Look at how many corps and alliances have left amarr. Look at how few have left minmatar.

Fweddit came in not caring about isk either. They just wanted pvp in cheap ships. But then reddit started getting posts along the lines of "hey guys how are you funding your pvp?"

Minmatar was able to cash out trillions more isk that amarr. Thanks to Susan Jagerblitzin getting his proposal passed by ccp Amarr are eating the lp they were hoping to cash out at tier 5.

Now, with the Susan Jagerblitzin rule set, its economically stupid for amarr to fight for occupancy. So if amarr act rationally minmatar will sweep up.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#49 - 2012-10-31 14:54:53 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Regardless of the points you make (which have very little impact) the bottom line is still this:

Every isk we can make from the occupancy war minmatar can make double for doing the same thing.

I am sure you would like me to get out there and start contesting systems so you can start making bank. If you want to make bank on this you will have to roll alts and have them do the work for you. I am not going waste my time doing the thankless task so you can make double.


Whow... you must be a milkmaid... or a politician by simply ignoring one part of the facts Blink

It is correct that Minmatar can make twice the LP than Amarr if they have better tier, however making twice the LP doesn't mean anything of the LP is only worth the halve amount of ISK.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2012-10-31 14:54:59 UTC
Meditril wrote:
  • Keeping up tier 4 or higher takes a lot of LP which have to be donated. So for the more LP you get you also have to spend more LP to keep this going especially if the enemy (Amarr) are running plexes and thus melting the tier slowly...
    • Errrrrr ... Minmatar are effectively at tier 4 (0.2% away) without having spent a single LP (militia interface doesn't show any minmatar upgraded systems at any rate, could be broken though) while having only something like four systems more than they had at the start of the war.

    That is a staggering amount of donated LP right there .. I mean 0 is like the symbol for infinity without the twist! Big smile
    Meditril
    Hoplite Brigade
    Ushra'Khan
    #51 - 2012-10-31 15:01:06 UTC
    Veshta Yoshida wrote:
    Meditril wrote:
  • Keeping up tier 4 or higher takes a lot of LP which have to be donated. So for the more LP you get you also have to spend more LP to keep this going especially if the enemy (Amarr) are running plexes and thus melting the tier slowly...
    • Errrrrr ... Minmatar are effectively at tier 4 (0.2% away) without having spent a single LP (militia interface doesn't show any minmatar upgraded systems at any rate, could be broken though) while having only something like four systems more than they had at the start of the war.

    That is a staggering amount of donated LP right there .. I mean 0 is like the symbol for infinity without the twist! Big smile

    I can confirm you that there where several calls in Minmatar Milita to donate LP to get the tier up. In addition to this we have the luck that most amarr are simpy too lazy to contest non-guarded systems so that the losses due to contestation are really low.
    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    #52 - 2012-10-31 15:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
    Meditril wrote:
    Cearain wrote:
    Regardless of the points you make (which have very little impact) the bottom line is still this:

    Every isk we can make from the occupancy war minmatar can make double for doing the same thing.

    I am sure you would like me to get out there and start contesting systems so you can start making bank. If you want to make bank on this you will have to roll alts and have them do the work for you. I am not going waste my time doing the thankless task so you can make double.


    Whow... you must be a milkmaid... or a politician by simply ignoring one part of the facts Blink

    It is correct that Minmatar can make twice the LP than Amarr if they have better tier, however making twice the LP doesn't mean anything of the LP is only worth the halve amount of ISK.



    Most of the items in the 2 stores are the same. There are very few worthwhile unique items - Anyone want Impreial Navy armor plates?? Almost as good as tungsten!

    I'm glad you admit amarr continuing to plex will just mean minmatar make 2xs as much lp. If you think the economics of the stores will somehow make up those sorts of differences you had your head buried in the sand.

    Under the Susan Jagerblitzen FW patch, it is clear that the more amarr fights for occupancy the more they line the pockets of the minmatar.

    Letting minmatar take all the systems and remain taken is the only way to stop the economic bleeding and make this war economically even. edit:(assuming they make the lp payout for pvp kills and missions independant of tiers. If they don't then the winning side will just have a permanent economic advantage.)

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #53 - 2012-10-31 15:04:09 UTC
    Anybody who says they can't use FW - at Tier 1 levels - to fund their pvp habit is not being truthful.
    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    #54 - 2012-10-31 15:07:34 UTC
    Meditril wrote:
    Veshta Yoshida wrote:
    Meditril wrote:
  • Keeping up tier 4 or higher takes a lot of LP which have to be donated. So for the more LP you get you also have to spend more LP to keep this going especially if the enemy (Amarr) are running plexes and thus melting the tier slowly...
    • Errrrrr ... Minmatar are effectively at tier 4 (0.2% away) without having spent a single LP (militia interface doesn't show any minmatar upgraded systems at any rate, could be broken though) while having only something like four systems more than they had at the start of the war.

    That is a staggering amount of donated LP right there .. I mean 0 is like the symbol for infinity without the twist! Big smile

    I can confirm you that there where several calls in Minmatar Milita to donate LP to get the tier up. In addition to this we have the luck that most amarr are simpy too lazy to contest non-guarded systems so that the losses due to contestation are really low.



    It's not that we are lazy its that we are not dumb. Fighting the occupancy game just lines our enemies pockets. Like I said if you want to make isk at this you will need to roll your own amarr alts. I won't play your amarr alt puppet for you.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    #55 - 2012-10-31 15:10:45 UTC
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Anybody who says they can't use FW - at Tier 1 levels - to fund their pvp habit is not being truthful.


    Whether you can fund your pvp depends on your enemies numbers and economics. If your enemy has 2xs the numbers and 10xs the isk you will not be able to sustain pvp against them.

    Any one who engages a system that gives their enemy 2xs the isk they receive is a fool. Once a rational person figures out that is the end result of the how the system works they no longer engage that system.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
    Meditril
    Hoplite Brigade
    Ushra'Khan
    #56 - 2012-10-31 15:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
    Cearain wrote:

    It's not that we are lazy its that we are not dumb. Fighting the occupancy game just lines our enemies pockets. Like I said if you want to make isk at this you will need to roll your own amarr alts. I won't play your amarr alt puppet for you.


    I don't use alts at all, since I have an RL and no time for grinding. I make ISK with my main usually by running plexes and selling the tags and/or by killing Amarr and selling their loot. If you ask me how this can replace my losses, here is the answer: Don't fly pimp fittings and ships and you will easily make enough money from FW to more then compensate your losses and still have a lot of fun.

    To be more precise... fitting modules worth more then 100 Mill ISK onto a frigate is complete stupid... if you do this: fine, but please then don't moan that grinding ISK to too much effort once you have lost it.
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #57 - 2012-10-31 15:28:25 UTC
    Veshta Yoshida wrote:

    Errrrrr ... Minmatar are effectively at tier 4 (0.2% away) without having spent a single LP (militia interface doesn't show any minmatar upgraded systems at any rate, could be broken though) while having only something like four systems more than they had at the start of the war.

    That is a staggering amount of donated LP right there .. I mean 0 is like the symbol for infinity without the twist! Big smile
    You have to travel to an enemy system to figure out its upgrade status.
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #58 - 2012-10-31 15:31:38 UTC
    Cearain wrote:

    Whether you can fund your pvp depends on your enemies numbers and economics. If your enemy has 2xs the numbers and 10xs the isk you will not be able to sustain pvp against them.

    Ridiculous statement. There's still plenty of pvp available. However, you will not be able to blob them, nor will you be able to take systems from them if they want to stop you from doing so.
    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    #59 - 2012-10-31 15:36:40 UTC
    Meditril wrote:
    Cearain wrote:

    It's not that we are lazy its that we are not dumb. Fighting the occupancy game just lines our enemies pockets. Like I said if you want to make isk at this you will need to roll your own amarr alts. I won't play your amarr alt puppet for you.


    I don't use alts at all, since I have an RL and no time for grinding. I make ISK with my main usually by running plexes and selling the tags and/or by killing Amarr and selling their loot. If you ask me how this can replace my losses, here is the answer: Don't fly pimp fittings and ships and you will easily make enough money from FW to more then compensate your losses and still have a lot of fun.

    To be more precise... fitting modules worth more then 100 Mill ISK onto a frigate is complete stupid... if you do this: fine, but please then don't moan that grinding ISK to too much effort once you have lost it.



    I'm glad you can make isk from plexing. One militia can make 2xs as much from this. Which militia do you think most people will join?

    I don't know what you are talking about fitting a mill isk mod to a ship. Minmatar can always bring more flat out firepower than amarr due to the numbers and economic imbalance. Susan jagerblitzen appearntly liked that so he made sure it that imbalance became permanent through a rule changes that ensure the winners stay on top.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    #60 - 2012-10-31 15:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Cearain wrote:

    Whether you can fund your pvp depends on your enemies numbers and economics. If your enemy has 2xs the numbers and 10xs the isk you will not be able to sustain pvp against them.

    Ridiculous statement. There's still plenty of pvp available. However, you will not be able to blob them, nor will you be able to take systems from them if they want to stop you from doing so.



    Right the pvp is completely unrelated to occupancy.

    I know you are happy with, rvb style, no context pvp. But some of us were hoping these fw updates would bring these things together. Instead retribution is just driving them even further apart.

    And your idea of "plenty of pvp" and my idea of "plenty of pvp" are probably quite a bit different.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815