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The Hypocrisy of High Sec

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Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2012-10-31 12:30:28 UTC
If more Ores were to be found only in low-sec. The price for those ores would skyrocket., that in itse;f would likely be a good thing as there is for too much easy money sloshing around in the game.

Personally I would NEVER take a mining barge into low-sec, no matter how valuable the ores to be found there. The risk is just too high. It will NEVER be worth the risk.

This is a situation created by the residents of low-sec, they only have themselves to blame.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-10-31 12:32:26 UTC
What is up with all these new people coming on the forums and posting walls of text lately?

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2012-10-31 12:35:24 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Why should anyone want to join a Corp?

It has been shown, repeatedly, that players who do join up with a corp, with actual people, and make friends with them, last longer in EVE than if they just fap around and do mining, missionrunning etc all day long all on their own. This isn't rocket science either, this is just plain common sense, because EVE, if you look at it as a pure singleplayer game, is ****. It's absolute ****, its only redeeming feature is the social aspect of it.

And honestly, if people just want to play a SP space game, they'd be much, much better off buying X3 and playing that.

TharOkha wrote:
Why do you think that I, as a freelance solo player, do not experiencing the game?

You're free to play as a solo player if you absolutely want, but trust me on this, unless you're an utterly asocial guy, you'll find that playing in player corps working towards an actual goal will elevate your gameplay experience a ton. But if you are a completely asocial guy, fire up X3 and you'll have a better gameplay experience, and it'll cost you less. vOv

TharOkha wrote:
There are already better rats in null, there are already better l4 missions in low than in high. Problem is with the players. As long as there will be this "gheto-thinking" philosophy that "shoot anything that moves" in low/null, then nobody from solo player hisec comunity will be willing go there.

Yes, yes, we shoot absolutely everyone who go to nullsec who even smell like they're from hisec. Roll

You know there's this concept of "joining an alliance" or "joining a corp in a nullsec alliance" which gives you this mystical "blue standings" which means that the people who live in these regions will "not shoot at you". Or if you don't want to join someone else's corp/alliance, make your own and either invade someone's space or kiss their ass enough so they give you blue standing. But that involves actually talking to other players, instead of just saying "I want to go to nullsec". vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Alliria Seedspawn
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-10-31 12:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alliria Seedspawn
To the OP...

There are different types of risk. To the PvP pilot, the biggest risk is the destruction of their ship and pod. This costs them isk. Industrialist and traders biggest risk is taking a loss on something (or many somethings). This costs them isk. I don't see a difference in the end result, and both have risk of different types.

Just as there are industrialists that want nothing to do with PvP, there are PvP folks that want nothing to do with industry. What would you PvP pilots do without the carebears that make all your stuff?
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#125 - 2012-10-31 14:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Alliria Seedspawn wrote:

Just as there are industrialists that want nothing to do with PvP, there are PvP folks that want nothing to do with industry. What would you PvP pilots do without the carebears that make all your stuff?

They will buy stuff produced by other PvP pilots who search for maximum efficiency at any given moment - and there are no reasons whatsoever to think that something will prevent us from swapping, say, w-space activities for hi-sec industry if it becomes so profitable.

You don't really believe PvP players get their isk out of the thin air, do you? Cool

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Anslo
Scope Works
#126 - 2012-10-31 14:02:59 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
They will buy stuff produced by other PvP pilots who search for maximum efficiency at any given moment - and there are no reasons whatsoever to think that something will prevent us from swithing, say, w-space activities to hi-sec industry if it becomes so profitable.

You don't really believe PvP players get their isk out of the thin air, do you? Cool


And then pvp players live in peace and harmony once they've defeated the menace of highsec as they swim in an ocean of blue and NAPs Smile

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#127 - 2012-10-31 14:06:41 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
They will buy stuff produced by other PvP pilots who search for maximum efficiency at any given moment - and there are no reasons whatsoever to think that something will prevent us from swithing, say, w-space activities to hi-sec industry if it becomes so profitable.

You don't really believe PvP players get their isk out of the thin air, do you? Cool


And then pvp players live in peace and harmony once they've defeated the menace of highsec as they swim in an ocean of blue and NAPs Smile

I don't see how these carebearish dreams corelate with me showing that hi-sec bears have no monopoly on industry and production. Care to elaborate?

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Anslo
Scope Works
#128 - 2012-10-31 14:13:54 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:

I don't see how these carebearish dreams correlate with me showing that hi-sec bears have no monopoly on industry and production. Care to elaborate?


Dream? Isn't that the reality in nul right now? A big sea of blue? BTW it's called satire P

I'm trying to say if they disappeared and you all just moved in and made things yourselves...Eve would be a very boring game Ugh

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#129 - 2012-10-31 14:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Anslo wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:

I don't see how these carebearish dreams correlate with me showing that hi-sec bears have no monopoly on industry and production. Care to elaborate?


Dream? Isn't that the reality in nul right now? A big sea of blue? BTW it's called satire P

I'm trying to say if they disappeared and you all just moved in and made things yourselves...Eve would be a very boring game Ugh

Might be true, too.But on the other hand, I've got no issues with hi-sec folks as long as they admit that their activities would be rendered useless in case the demand suddenly dissappears, which is something a lot of them seem to be missing.

PvP creates demand for PvE and industry.
PvPers do PvE themselves and quite often build stuff as well. On the other hand, PvE players mostly avoid PvP. So it's really quite simple.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#130 - 2012-10-31 14:24:02 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:
A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say “stop pushing us around, we don’t want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We don’t tell you how to play so you can’t tell us how to play”.

I think this is not a fair argument.

Consider a situation where all PVPers in the game agreed to fight each other until one entered structure, at that point a killmail would be generated and the loser, who had entered structure, would be obliged to return to a station and not to use that ship again for 24 hours.

Under this arrangement PVP would continue but industrial activity, in all but ammo manufacturing, would cease to exist. All pilots would buy one or two copies of each ship in the game and would not need to buy ships again. It would be a PVP paradise, with no need to grind money to pay for ships you could fight and fight forever.

Now obviously nobody wants this but it illustrates the point, all industrial activity in EVE is built on risk. It is founded on people taking a risk, screwing up and getting blown up. This creates the opportunity to build a new ship. It is very rare people undock wanting to get blown up and when they do get blown up it is because they were taking a risk to achieve something they want and it went wrong.

Of course there is the expansion of the subscriber base, when new players want new ships, but expansion also creates new industrialists so overall it’s effect is small.

So this means if you want to mine or make ships or trade what you are doing is profiting off someone who took a risk and got blown up and now has to replace their ship. So saying you want to do any of these things but not have anything to do with those nasty PVPers is completely hypocritical. Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you can’t say “leave us alone” because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do.

So saying, “I want to be safe in high sec and just to be an industrialist” is inherently creating a two tier system, where the PVPers take all the risk and then industrialists get all the rewards. It’s unbalanced. It’s like PVPers asking for ships that respawn, it just distorts the game in the favour of one specific group.

Industrialists who seek great rewards should have to take great risks to get them. This feeds the system with risk and allows those rewards to be generated. It is fair, everyone in the game takes risks to get rewards.

I don’t think anyone should be allowed to play a communal game and get rewards without risk while others take extra risks to compensate. The risk of mining and manufacturing and trading in high sec is too low, it is very close to zero, yet the rewards are high. This is unacceptable.

High sec needs to be balanced. If you want to be safe you must put up with being poor, if you want to be rich you should take risks.

So no wonder people say “leave us alone, we like it as it is”.


Except that you are not prevented from playing in high sec. So it is a fair argument.


And something prevents you from playing in nullsec?

You see, the pubbies think they can't achieve jack **** in nullsec so they protect their hi sec easy mode. Grow up and take some space.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-10-31 14:27:31 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
You see, the pubbies think they can't achieve jack **** in nullsec so they protect their hi sec easy mode. Grow up and take some space.

Or they could join an already established corp/alliance, if only there were a point to being in nullsec as opposed to hisec. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Anslo
Scope Works
#132 - 2012-10-31 14:27:56 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:

Might be true, too.But on the other hand, I've got no issues with hi-sec folks as long as they admit that their activities would be rendered useless in case the demand suddenly dissappears, which is something a lot of them seem to be missing.

PvP creates demand for PvE and industry.
PvPers do PvE themselves and quite often build stuff as well. On the other hand, PvE players mostly avoid PvP. So it's really quite simple.


Think of it this way then; if the pubbies did suddenly get ousted and you all took over...would you really rather be mining and manufacturing than shooting? You'd become the same carebears, with less people, in an empty dead game...is that what you want? If the majority anti-pvp PVE'ers suddenly up and left manufacturing, would you really be willing to all pick up the mantle?

Seems like it'd be less a game and more of a job Ugh

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-10-31 14:33:25 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Think of it this way then; if the pubbies did suddenly get ousted and you all took over...would you really rather be mining and manufacturing than shooting? You'd become the same carebears, with less people, in an empty dead game...is that what you want? If the majority anti-pvp PVE'ers suddenly up and left manufacturing, would you really be willing to all pick up the mantle?

No. **** mining forever.

The thing about getting carebears into nullsec is actually because chances are it'd give them an incentive to stick with the game for longer. I mean, what would you have preferred, to sit in hisec and mine, and just press a button every few minutes and docking up every 45 minutes or whatever, haul the refined minerals to jita and rince repeat, or would you want to read a battlereport and see ships which you've helped build be used to defend your space, and feel like you've actually contributed to something greater than just your own wallet?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Anslo
Scope Works
#134 - 2012-10-31 14:36:23 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
The thing about getting carebears into nullsec is actually because chances are it'd give them an incentive to stick with the game for longer. I mean, what would you have preferred, to sit in hisec and mine, and just press a button every few minutes and docking up every 45 minutes or whatever, haul the refined minerals to jita and rince repeat, or would you want to read a battlereport and see ships which you've helped build be used to defend your space, and feel like you've actually contributed to something greater than just your own wallet?


Well apparently they prefer to mine. Who are we to tell them not to and what they should think is fun?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Lolar55
Banana Toaster
#135 - 2012-10-31 14:36:47 UTC
Its the same thing when you look from different view point as well.In order for you to even start pvp industrialist had to build your ship ammo and mods so we all rely on each other for survival and keeping eve alive.As long as pvpers don't stop pvp and carebears don't stop manufructuring eve will be fine.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2012-10-31 14:38:46 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Well apparently they prefer to mine. Who are we to tell them not to and what they should think is fun?

Did I say we should?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Anslo
Scope Works
#137 - 2012-10-31 14:40:16 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Well apparently they prefer to mine. Who are we to tell them not to and what they should think is fun?

Did I say we should?


Looks like you implied it by discussing player retention by pushing them into nul sec. If I misread I apologize.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2012-10-31 14:52:10 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Well apparently they prefer to mine. Who are we to tell them not to and what they should think is fun?

Did I say we should?


Looks like you implied it by discussing player retention by pushing them into nul sec. If I misread I apologize.

"mining" and "moving to nullsec" are not mutually exclusive. Or at least should not be.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2012-10-31 14:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Anslo wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Well apparently they prefer to mine. Who are we to tell them not to and what they should think is fun?

Did I say we should?

Looks like you implied it by discussing player retention by pushing them into nul sec. If I misread I apologize.

I did not imply that people should be told not to mine after moving to nullsec, nor did I imply that they should be pushed. There's absolutely no point in trying to push someone into nullsec when they're too risk-averse to be there, but there should be a reason for people who aren't as risk-averse to go to nullsec, even if they don't necessarily log in to PVP. Currently, there is none, and as a result nullsec is a complete and utter wasteland.

The things which needs to be worked towards is
1) Make it worthwhile to try to do manufacturing in nullsec. This means radically increasing the manufacturing capacity available in nullsec.
2) There should be incentives to refine minerals locally instead of compressing them and shipping them to hisec. This is doable by f.ex reducing the efficiency of refining compressed ore. The actual efficiency reduction number is unknown, but the higher the mining tax they can run in nullsec (to help with financing the alliance through player activity, instead of static resources such as moons) before it becomes economically feasible to haul it to hisec and refine there instead, the better. Within reason, of course.
3) There should be incentives to source minerals locally in nullsec, instead of going to jita to purchase it, go to a second system in hisec to build it into ammo or guns, ship them in via JFs, refine and then use that to manufacture stuff with.
4) It should be more expensive to make things in hisec than it is, to help with making it feasible to do manufacturing in nullsec. Take a maelstrom, currently I can make one for around 2k in manufacturing costs. That's way, way too little.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-10-31 15:42:29 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
If more Ores were to be found only in low-sec. The price for those ores would skyrocket., that in itse;f would likely be a good thing as there is for too much easy money sloshing around in the game.

Personally I would NEVER take a mining barge into low-sec, no matter how valuable the ores to be found there. The risk is just too high. It will NEVER be worth the risk.

This is a situation created by the residents of low-sec, they only have themselves to blame.




Really, never? What if you could make 1 billion ISK per hour in a 20 mill retreiver?

This scenario is obviously ridiculous, but I highly doubt that you would "NEVER" go there.

Thanks