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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Faction Warfare - Fixing Amarr/Minmatar Geography

First post First post First post
Author
Susan Black
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2012-10-31 05:00:03 UTC
Cearain wrote:


No one in amarr cares about susan.



Cry

www.gamerchick.net @gamerchick42

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-10-31 05:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Susan Black wrote:
do you live under a rock?
Hans talks to you every single day. Of course you're privy to every thing he's doing, and can weigh in on it live (so to speak.)

If he has talked about the geography in September (wow, long wait since CCP first asked about it back in May/June), then he didn't make that public. But then, the lack of transparency with this CSM has been unsurprising.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-10-31 05:11:03 UTC
Susan Black wrote:
Cearain wrote:
No one in amarr cares about susan.
Cry
I like mocking you. That's sort of like caring.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-10-31 05:37:43 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
This is by far the most ridiculously dishonest post Poetic has made to date.[/i]

http://soundcloud.com/poetic-stanziel/hans-visits-fweddit

42:03 (I placed a comment at the location, so that folks can start listening at that point.)

Not so dishonest. You state when CCP first approached you about the issue. And that you decided not to make it a topic of public discussion, because you, more or less, didn't feel it very important, compared to you own personal hot-button issues like "visual notification of plexing" and "rewind timers on plexes."

I'm paraphrasing that last part, but those are two issues you pushed hard with CCP as required fixes for this upcoming expansion. Apparently, you'll get at least one of them. Being Minmatar, the warzone geography has never been an issue for you, thus it fell down the list of importance.

Like I said elsewhere. Your job is not to time manage for CCP. Your job is simply to present every problem/issue to CCP, preferably in a reasonable timeframe after they first ask you about it, and it's their job to decide what they can and cannot get accomplished given the resources they want to toss at faction warfare.
Rathin
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#25 - 2012-10-31 06:26:48 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

Your job is simply to present every problem/issue to CCP


Ever noticed how the more someone talks the less people listen?? If we want anything done at all we have to trust the CSM's to prioritise what is raised with CCP otherwise it will all just be lost in the noise.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-10-31 07:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
I see the puffins are coming out of the woodwork. Smile

Rathin wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

Your job is simply to present every problem/issue to CCP
Ever noticed how the more someone talks the less people listen?? If we want anything done at all we have to trust the CSM's to prioritise what is raised with CCP otherwise it will all just be lost in the noise.
That's taken out of context. Granted, I could have wrote what I did more clearly.

Quote:
Your job is simply to present every problem/issue to CCP, preferably in a reasonable timeframe after they first ask you about it ...
I was referring to issues that CCP specifically ask Hans about. I assume when CCP asked Hans about the warzone geography, they were expecting him to dialogue with the community in June ... not wait until late September. (And as it turns out, Pinky took the bull by the horns himself, sending his information directly to CCP Fozzie, rather than using Hans as the preferred intermediary.)

Obviously sending every player complaint/issue/problem to CCP would be a bad idea. But when CCP specifically asks you about something they feel might be an issue ... seems to me, you'd want to jump on that. It's not often CCP seeks out player input on a problem at the beginning of the iterative process. Usually CCP waits until they've decided on the fix and then devblogged about it, they let players have their say at the end of the iterative process.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#27 - 2012-10-31 07:29:44 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
I see the puffins are coming out of the woodwork. Smile

Rathin wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

Your job is simply to present every problem/issue to CCP
Ever noticed how the more someone talks the less people listen?? If we want anything done at all we have to trust the CSM's to prioritise what is raised with CCP otherwise it will all just be lost in the noise.
That's taken out of context. Granted, I could have wrote what I did more clearly.

Quote:
Your job is simply to present every problem/issue to CCP, preferably in a reasonable timeframe after they first ask you about it ...
I was referring to issues that CCP specifically ask Hans about. I assume when CCP asked Hans about the warzone geography, they were expecting him to dialogue with the community in June ... not wait until late September. (And as it turns out, Pinky took the bull by the horns himself, sending his information directly to CCP Fozzie, rather than using Hans as the preferred intermediary.)

Obviously sending every player complaint/issue/problem to CCP would be a bad idea. But when CCP specifically asks you about something they feel might be an issue ... seems to me, you'd want to jump on that. It's not often CCP seeks out player input on a problem at the beginning of the iterative process. Usually CCP waits until they've decided on the fix and then devblogged about it, they let players have their say at the end of the iterative process.


If you had read Hans' post, you would have seen he already has presented the information provided by Pinky himself to CCP ages ago. Cearain has also raised this issue as well as lots of other people on both sides of the warzone. I don't understand why you insist on claiming this is an issue Hans has ignored.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-10-31 07:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Vordak Kallager wrote:
If you had read Hans' post, you would have seen he already has presented the information provided by Pinky himself to CCP ages ago. Cearain has also raised this issue as well as lots of other people on both sides of the warzone. I don't understand why you insist on claiming this is an issue Hans has ignored.
I listened to him during his visit to Fweddit. I read his post.

You and I disagree on what Hans did with regards the problem of geography. It's cool that you're defending him and all. I understand that.

But ...

He did ignore warzone geography. From the time CCP asked him about it in May/June, until September when Pinky brought it up with him. (Hans did not broach the subject with Pinky. Let's be clear about that.) Pinky sent his documents straight to Fozzie, not through Hans. (For obvious reasons.)
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#29 - 2012-10-31 07:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Susan Black wrote:
Cearain wrote:
No one in amarr cares about susan.
Cry
I like mocking you. That's sort of like caring.


Stalking her like a scorned lover is more like it. Not sure why you let her get under your skill all the time.

Late Night Alliance vs Poetic. This is one really bad soap opera.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#30 - 2012-10-31 08:19:02 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
He did ignore warzone geography. From the time CCP asked him about it in May/June, until September when Pinky brought it up with him. (Hans did not broach the subject with Pinky. Let's be clear about that.) Pinky sent his documents straight to Fozzie, not through Hans. (For obvious reasons.)


Then I am confused what you think that internal CCP forums post Hans linked (non-NDA breaking) dated to April is. I am also curious how you think the geography is the be-all end-all topic of FW's success when we have had so many problems with Inferno which are being rectified with Fast Forward and Retribution.

Are you blind, deaf or dumb? All three? Are you the Pinball Wizard?

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-10-31 08:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Deen Wispa wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Susan Black wrote:
Cearain wrote:
No one in amarr cares about susan.
Cry
I like mocking you. That's sort of like caring.
Stalking her like a scorned lover is more like it. Not sure why you let her get under your skill all the time.
Now you're full of hyperbole. :)

She's featured in a couple photoshops, and mentioned in a few posts. I haven't even mentioned her in any recent blog posts (not since October 16th, if my Ctrl-F function is working correctly in Chrome.)

Because she's a woman, people get up in arms. iIve mocked men, without the same degree of accusation. She's eve-famous, she's gonna get mocked. That's as insidious as it gets. I get mocked, I don't go off the rails claiming those people are stalkers. I'm not sure why people pull out a different rulebook just because the target of the mockery has breasts. Lonely nerd white-knighting, I suppose.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-10-31 08:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Are you blind, deaf or dumb?
Certainly not deaf.

http://soundcloud.com/poetic-stanziel/hans-visits-fweddit

42:03 (I placed a comment at the location, so that folks can start listening at that point.)

I'm sure there's a crapload of posts he made when he first took office in April. The point is that he never followed up on geography, as he tells it during the Soundcloud with Fweddit above.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#33 - 2012-10-31 09:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vordak Kallager
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Are you blind, deaf or dumb?
Certainly not deaf.

http://soundcloud.com/poetic-stanziel/hans-visits-fweddit

42:03 (I placed a comment at the location, so that folks can start listening at that point.)

I'm sure there's a crapload of posts he made when he first took office in April. The point is that he never followed up on geography, as he tells it during the Soundcloud with Fweddit above.


If you read his post -

"I'll be honest here - I did make one mistake in my Fweddit talk. I said that I didn't have an answer to give to CCP at the summit when they asked about the changing the map. This is true, I didn't go into the summit with map changes on my agenda - because I was preoccupied with addressing the concerns that I was hearing about on a daily basis at the time. My inaccuracy though in talking to Fweddit was that I did actually have information about specific map changes at the time of the summit - I ran a quick forum search and it turns out that I had already given them this information before the summit even took place."

Blind then.

Edit - He goes on to link the internal forums post he made regarding the map/geography issue.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Braitai
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-10-31 09:46:21 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Because she's a woman, people get up in arms.


Because she's a woman, she gets more vitriol than any man would get. The rampant sexism that exists in most online communities is pretty obvious to most reasonable people, but you're not reasonable.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#35 - 2012-10-31 10:08:17 UTC
Simply no!

The geography is good as it is. The only reason why there are "choke points" is that many Amarr are just too lazy to either...

  • take the long low-sec round-trip to Metropolis, or
  • take the short high-sec round-trip to Metropolis, or
  • simply organize a fleet to break through the "sooo heavy camped" Hof/Eszur gate.
  • set up, run and defend a base in Metropolis (as far as I know Aset and one other system are (or was) still Amarr)

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#36 - 2012-10-31 10:52:41 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Susan Black wrote:
Cearain wrote:
No one in amarr cares about susan.
Cry
I like mocking you. That's sort of like caring.
Stalking her like a scorned lover is more like it. Not sure why you let her get under your skill all the time.
Now you're full of hyperbole. :)

She's featured in a couple photoshops, and mentioned in a few posts. I haven't even mentioned her in any recent blog posts (not since October 16th, if my Ctrl-F function is working correctly in Chrome.)

Because she's a woman, people get up in arms. iIve mocked men, without the same degree of accusation. She's eve-famous, she's gonna get mocked. That's as insidious as it gets. I get mocked, I don't go off the rails claiming those people are stalkers. I'm not sure why people pull out a different rulebook just because the target of the mockery has breasts. Lonely nerd white-knighting, I suppose.

Actually... the reason people are "up in arms" over you (in general) is because you are incredibly and annoyingly shrill over small "details" and/or perceived slights.

If you want to catch less flak and be taken more seriously then bring your tone down a few notches. Spamming the forums with threads about details you don't seem to double check and/or complaining about how things are not being done to your liking doesn't endear you to many people... and often makes them deaf to the important things you are saying (when they actually are).
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#37 - 2012-10-31 12:41:44 UTC
I joined FW just after Inferno patch. I remember the first time there were a lot of complaint about Amarr them being unable to compete cause:

"Minmatar can farm plex easly, for us is impossible to compete cause of the NPC EWar, CCP favourite them"

Then CCP removed any ewar from NPC in plexes and it became:

"Ok but we don't want to PvE, we're not farmer, this is why we cannot compete for systems supremacy against Minmatar"

And, in the meantime, everyone in Amarr militia was creating some alt in Minmatar militia to better farm plexes orbiting with gunless Vigil, and some major Amarr faction was giving up to switch to Caldari "so, there, we can farm ISK better".

Now "we cannot compete cause the FW map design is manipulate to advantage minmaatr".

All this starts to sounds more like a neverending whine, and some specious arguments make more thinking to some personal issue or to the seat for the next CSm and bla bla than a real desire to improve things.

Don't missunderstand me, for the few I've seen till now in FW I agree that a lot of things need to be fixed and balanced. However people shuld also understand that "winning" or "loosing" also requires some effort and cannot be given directly by CCP shaping the playground around the "loosing" (temporary) side.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2012-10-31 12:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Meditril wrote:
Simply no!

The geography is good as it is...

So the fact that the Shakorites from the outset have some 50% more systems and that all those "extra" systems are effectively inaccessible due to distance, maze like space lanes and multiple chokes while all of the Amarr native systems are laid out in a pretty as can be double donut with multiple intersections .. is what you consider OK?

Would have been perfectly acceptable if CCP hadn't implemented passive rewards based on system count but now that they have chosen that heinous path ... look at the militia interface/map if you please;
Amarr are almost back at 'start', have upgraded most systems, albeit not all the way .. and linger low in tier 2 (22.9%).
Minmatar have a smidgen more systems than 'start', have upgraded nothing .. and almost have tier 4 (59.8%).

CCP messed up when they made FW in first place by not allowing for future iterations. They did however create an entire region for the purpose (Black Rise) so that the Gallente/Caldari could have a sandbox that did not heavily favour one side .. if they hadn't then Caldari's starting point would have been <5 systems if I recall.

In short: Simply Yes!
Sura Sadiva wrote:
.....

Since you just joined (by your own admission) that assessment is fairly accurate, but guess what: We have been doing FW for years (4+) and the complaints started pretty much from week one .. as soon as the discrepancies revealed themselves.

But I'll take the time to correct you:
- Plexing was never about eWar .. that was just CCP exhibiting their usual laziness .. you see a similar issue for Gallente .. it is the NPC weapon systems (missiles vs. guns). Short: eWar removal benefited all sides without actually addressing the problems.
- Farming is not FW specific. Humans will go for the easy ISK whenever possible, since Shakorites had way more earning potential with practically zero risk (see above) is it any wonder that happened?
- Map complaint is as old as FW. If you knew the insane logistical nightmare we had to go through a few years ago after the Caldari standing trick/exploit showcase in Aset area that prompted us to try to defend said area. Compare to taking/defending any system in the double donut for the Shakor cultists ... sure we can do it, but it will involve using more alts than mains just to get materials in and that just reeks of underlying issues in mechanics/gameplay.

Bottom line: The war would be a lot more fun for all involved if both sides had equal opportunities to **** the other one up (ref: any and all combat/contest centric game in history).
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2012-10-31 13:14:32 UTC
Susan Black wrote:
Cearain wrote:


No one in amarr cares about susan.



Cry



Do you get out of speeding tickets by crying?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#40 - 2012-10-31 13:16:47 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
I joined FW just after Inferno patch. I remember the first time there were a lot of complaint about Amarr them being unable to compete cause:

"Minmatar can farm plex easly, for us is impossible to compete cause of the NPC EWar, CCP favourite them"

Then CCP removed any ewar from NPC in plexes and it became:

"Ok but we don't want to PvE, we're not farmer, this is why we cannot compete for systems supremacy against Minmatar"

And, in the meantime, everyone in Amarr militia was creating some alt in Minmatar militia to better farm plexes orbiting with gunless Vigil, and some major Amarr faction was giving up to switch to Caldari "so, there, we can farm ISK better".

Now "we cannot compete cause the FW map design is manipulate to advantage minmaatr".

All this starts to sounds more like a neverending whine, and some specious arguments make more thinking to some personal issue or to the seat for the next CSm and bla bla than a real desire to improve things.

Don't missunderstand me, for the few I've seen till now in FW I agree that a lot of things need to be fixed and balanced. However people shuld also understand that "winning" or "loosing" also requires some effort and cannot be given directly by CCP shaping the playground around the "loosing" (temporary) side.




Still fw occupancy is not a pvp mechanic.(after all the talk about it from our csm rep) But minmatar will permanently get a direct 2xs the pay for every plex so you should be happy.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815