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Reasons why people wont PvP and why its a waste of time for most people
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Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-10-30 22:38:34 UTC
Gogela wrote:
A few things need to happen, and some of it CCP, knowingly or not, is already working on. First, you need to have something worth defending. The modular POS's (and man if we get a jump drive on those at some point that would really be sweet) would be such a thing if they do it right and you really feel like it's 'uniquely yours'. That's a good target. People would defend it, and others attack it. Next, empire space has to stop being the place you go to get rich. Nullsec should be the richest space... it should be better than wormholes or anything. 50% tax on all empire market transactions. Run up taxes on highsec manufacturing too... hell get rid of highsec manufacturing and research slots. level 4 missions go to lowsec. FW is fine. Incursions in highsec should be stupid and worthless.


Uhhuh, and when this is done we can all stand up and wave goodbye to 3/4 of the game's population.

I'm getting so tired of trying to explain this to people. You can't FORCE someone into PvP if they don't want to do it. You also cannot ENTICE them, no matter how stupidly high the reward is, if they don't want to do it. Same goes for every other facet of the game. The fact that majority of EVE's population remains in high sec proves that the majority of the population does not want to PvP, under the current PvP system at least. If you want to get people to PvP, you have to change how PvP works.

If you are having trouble seeing this, look at mining. Some people will not mine, not even AFK mine. Regardless of how much money you could be making from it. Why? Because it's a stupidly boring mechanic. Eve is a GAME. It is supposed to be fun. But you can't force people, or entice them into doing something that's boring and stupid and really should only be done by bots or AFKers (or both). The only solution is to change the way mining works. It seems CCP is finally starting to realize it. About time too, it's been what, 9 and a half years? That's why they're talking about changing mining to be more interactive with ring mining. Until the same is done for the PvP, the majority of people will do their darnest best to avoid it like the plague. for whatever their individual reason for doing so might be (and there's tons of valid reasons).
Janet Patton
Brony Express
#42 - 2012-10-30 23:01:25 UTC
Great post.

I would like to get into PvP in EVE but just do not find it appealing to prey on other players who do not want to participate. Which seems to be what most of PvP is in this game.

When I feel the need to kill other people. I play something other then EVE, where everyone is willing to fight back.

Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#43 - 2012-10-30 23:16:21 UTC
I think the closest thing we have to a purpose for as well as a way to profit from PVP is FW and I'd LOVE to try it, but my nomadic lifestyle has me VERY hesitant to ruin standings with any one faction.

If I can get over that then I might be able to really jump in and enjoy a somewhat sustainable PVP lifestyle.

I'd also LOVE to join pirate versions of FW, not only to get faction shines like macherials and bhaalgorns with LP but also to give real purpose to NPC null sec without it just being a ratting haven for people that dont have any blue outposts to dock at

The Drake is a Lie
Viktor Fel
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-10-30 23:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Fel
Dear OP,


1. Gain in the form of territory. Gain in the form of salvage, loot, etc.

2. Two sorts of things in nature, predator and prey. Same applies to EVE.

i) To seize, retain, and exploit the initiative is a fundamental of warfare, even internetz spaceship warfare. Even most modern forces employ the doctrine that states a force should ideally engage only at 3 to 1 odds.


ii) Again, fundamental of strategic warfare. How is this wrong?

iii) I looked you up, you've hardly been on any roams at all and the ones you were on were likely not employing economy of force or just had poor C4ISR practices.

(iv) Learn to fight, learn to fit. FInd a small group that will HTFU and undock. You were flying with failures.

(V) Sometimes pain, loss and a pod kill are the best teachers.


3. Killboards have some tech issues, but that is about it. Statistics and logistics are just as key as a good fit. Planning helps too.

4. Human nature is to be predatory, to be greedy too. HTFU

5. Learn to fly better, find a small group

6. An unqualified opinion really.


1. HTFU

2. HTFU

1. Lowsec Pirates- I am one

2. Highsec corps who live for battle and just want targets. I'm all for it



OP sits on a throne of lies.

Who is Viktor Fel?

Killboard
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#45 - 2012-10-30 23:40:31 UTC
The thing is, EVE is a sandbox. And, at the end of the day, as much fun as pvp might be (and actually is), it's just another tool in the collection. Just a way to get other things and to accomplish higher goals.
If you enjoy instant, fair, honoured PVP with inherent rewards, then you should take a look at the millions of other PVP games out there.

That said, EVE has progressed in the last years and the majority of pvp today is pvp with the fightclub mentality of "good fights", "good catchs", "tears". People fight, not because they have any reason within the sandbox to do so, but because they enjoy the adrenaline rush, the tactics, just the pure fighting.
No one can ever ask you to get into this group of people, if you don't enjoy the fightclub, but that does not mean you should stay away from any kind of "blowing ships up".

[And actually, the "predatory" PVP is much closer to the basics of EVE combat and in my opinion quite the opposite of a game mechanic problem. ]


I think a perceived issue with PVP in EVE is that PVP that actually has meaning and purpose is often denoted as bad form of PVP, "honourless" and weak. People that kill enemy pve ships in 0.0 and thus drain their enemy from ressources and morale are the bad guys that just prey on the weak. People that blob an enemy gang because they want to purge them out of their home system are referred to as unskilled faggots. But both of these were pvp actions that were fundamentally functional and served a purpose in building and defending these peoples' part of the sandbox.
I said before, no one can ever ask you to get into "fightclub" pvp. But if you, as a player, built something in the sandbox, why would you not use all tools at hand to defend it ? I think everyone will be involved in "blowing someone else up" at some point, if they just defend what they want to do and want to build in EVE.



Now, when we get to the part where we ask for CCP to do changes. Changing the predatory mechanics, changing the "honourless" mechanics, the "blobbing" or similar will just make EVE more and more shallow and at some point, all that will be left is just a bad themepark-gratification game that no one plays anymore.
If we want CCP to broaden the spectrum of people that go and blow other ships up (or stop ships from blowing up), we should ask for more sandbox tools, and more and more and more. The more things you can own, the more things you can change in the game, the more reasons you have to fight.
Think about Minecraft, the game is probably the sandbox game with one of the highest grades of player changes to the world.
Now compare that to EVE: In highsec, there is almost no way to alter your surroundings, to leave your mark at all. There are also almost no reasons to fight for a purpose other than "lulz" and "tears" at all. And the rest of space gets only slightly better...
The whole space empire you can build in 0.0 is just a dozen of POSs and maybe a generic looking station, all in a system with your ticker in the upper left corner. There should be more than that. And it should all be influenced by other players that care to interact it.
Also CCP should always strive to broaden what is possible with "emergent gameplay". Whether by introducing even more ways to interact with other players, or by introducing new methods to interact with the environment of EVE. They just need to raise the number of tools, and people will start to find new and interesting ways to use them.



That is all.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-10-30 23:41:02 UTC
Viktor Fel wrote:
Dear OP,


1. Gain in the form of territory. Gain in the form of salvage, loot, etc.

2. Two sorts of things in nature, predator and prey. Same applies to EVE.

i) To seize, retain, and exploit the initiative is a fundamental of warfare, even internetz spaceship warfare. Even most modern forces employ the doctrine that states a force should ideally engage only at 3 to 1 odds.


ii) Again, fundamental of strategic warfare. How is this wrong?

iii) I looked you up, you've hardly been on any roams at all and the ones you were on were likely not employing economy of force or just had poor C4ISR practices.

(iv) Learn to fight, learn to fit. FInd a small group that will HTFU and undock. You were flying with failures.

(V) Sometimes pain, loss and a pod kill are the best teachers.


3. Killboards have some tech issues, but that is about it. Statistics and logistics are just as key as a good fit. Planning helps too.

4. Human nature is to be predatory, to be greedy too. HTFU

5. Learn to fly better, find a small group

6. An unqualified opinion really.


1. HTFU

2. HTFU

1. Lowsec Pirates- I am one

2. Highsec corps who live for battle and just want targets. I'm all for it



OP sits on a throne of lies.



There is nothing better than when a self rightious idiot comes into view

First up

1. This is not my PvP main

2. I said nothing bad about lowsec Pirates (read post)


Quote:
To seize, retain, and exploit the initiative is a fundamental of warfare, even internetz spaceship warfare. Even most modern forces employ the doctrine that states a force should ideally engage only at 3 to 1 odds.


Its 5 to 1 and this applies to attacking an entrenched position.
The whole point of the thread was that there is nothing to retain

Lastly you do understand that people can gives views that are not their own. I was saying why people wont PvP not why i wont PvP.

But according to you everyone would HTFU and no one should express an opinion that you dont hold.


As a halfwitt post it does not get any better than this
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#47 - 2012-10-30 23:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Soon Shin
Killboard stats really don't mean a whole lot. For example I have nearly 99% efficiency rating. Does that make me an amazing ub3r 3L337 PVPer?

Not really, I don't really think I am that great at all.

Yet stats can be tool used to "measure" how worthy you are.

I personally don't think numbers are really any good on killboards.

I could take a pot shot at a burning titan and whore on a 80 billion isk kill that gets added to my stats.

That doesn't take skill anyone can do that.

A true way to measure how come someone is to fly with them and see how they perform. There are more things to do than just simply lock the target and press F1.

There are IMO 3 types of PVPer's.

1. Who fights to achieve an objective (sov grinding, defending space.)

2. Who fight to pad their KB stats and commence primitive gorilla chest beating.

3. Who fight to have fun.
Dessau
The Scope
#48 - 2012-10-30 23:54:35 UTC
Janet Patton wrote:
I would like to get into PvP in EVE but just do not find it appealing to prey on other players who do not want to participate.

There are a great number of willing participants but a few jumps from high-sec.

Also...

Karn Dulake wrote:
2. PvP is Predatory. This covers a huge amount of ground but its also a game mechanic problem.

(…)

iii) Its time consuming. I have never been on a roam that did not take several hours to form up and then several more hours to find a single target that was almost always a PvE ship. Most people don’t have the time to do this.

The structure of space in EVE is miles beyond than the grieftastic bottlenecks in games like TERA and RF Online. The topographical aspect of the hunt is open-ended to a degree that, to me, makes the act of the hunt (or evading the hunt) more meaningful. I haven't heard an alternative to the current structure that makes sense to me.

I concede that I cannot disagree on the point regarding fleets, but as a solo pilot I have not had the displeasure myself.

Karn Dulake wrote:
i) People almost never fight unless they have the advantage. A PvPer always wants an overwhelming win before they will attempt a kill. This is overly true when looking for targets. You can fit a ship for PvE or PvP and they do not overlap. A PvP ship will almost always beat a PvE ship. This means that most of the time it is the PvPers choice to select their targets and ignore those they cannot win.

Kil2 and Kovorix did a podcast some time ago on what makes a ‘goodfight’ and I am in agreement with their conclusion that the uncertainty of the outcome of an engagement was the key factor in their most memorable and enjoyable encounters. There is a camp, which you mention above, for whom the uncertainty is an adverse condition, and so they will make every effort to increase the certainty in their favor. This to me is still a valid approach. However, this creates for another party a condition of certain loss (e.g. solo v Falcon + 1, gang-of-3 v gang-of-20, Mackinaw v Tornado, etc.), so that there is no point in engaging other than to watch your own ship explode, a position with which I can sympathize (just ask the residents of Aeschee). There is another camp which enjoys the engagement for the entertainment it provides, which comes mainly from the uncertainty surrounding who will emerge the victor. Ultimately it comes down to the different means we use to glean enjoyment from the product we pay for, but I do wish there were more pilots who belonged to the latter camp.

Karn Dulake wrote:
(iv) Its expensive. There are plenty of people who can tell you to get into frigates and go out and fight but in the majority of cases you will be massacred by bigger and more expensive ships. So you need larger ships to compete. Everyone has their story of a frigate fleet that killed a Battleship fleet but these are very much the exception than the rule.

I think cheap PvP is viable, it’s more a matter of doing your homework, since PvP in EVE is largely tactical. Studying fits, theorycrafting, and knowing the hotspot systems for frigate fights will go a long way to making cheap PvP accessible. The bonus is that the nimbleness of frigs give new PvP pilots the GTFOability to learn basic manoeuvres and strategy without necessarily being sitting ducks.

Karn Dulake wrote:
3. Killboards are a terrible construct.

As an intel tool they have value (even then, as you suggest, the intel is not ironclad), otherwise… empty egotism.

Overall, I’m in agreement on some points, but I don’t see PvP for PvP’s sake as any more or less pointless than anything else in the game, and I don't feel its a waste of time to promote an interest in pew pew. Given that, I must agree with others that there are players who simply aren't going to make the leap.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#49 - 2012-10-31 00:00:57 UTC
Viktor Fel wrote:
Dear OP,


1. Gain in the form of territory. Gain in the form of salvage, loot, etc.

2. Two sorts of things in nature, predator and prey. Same applies to EVE.

i) To seize, retain, and exploit the initiative is a fundamental of warfare, even internetz spaceship warfare. Even most modern forces employ the doctrine that states a force should ideally engage only at 3 to 1 odds.


ii) Again, fundamental of strategic warfare. How is this wrong?

iii) I looked you up, you've hardly been on any roams at all and the ones you were on were likely not employing economy of force or just had poor C4ISR practices.

(iv) Learn to fight, learn to fit. FInd a small group that will HTFU and undock. You were flying with failures.

(V) Sometimes pain, loss and a pod kill are the best teachers.


3. Killboards have some tech issues, but that is about it. Statistics and logistics are just as key as a good fit. Planning helps too.

4. Human nature is to be predatory, to be greedy too. HTFU

5. Learn to fly better, find a small group

6. An unqualified opinion really.


1. HTFU

2. HTFU

1. Lowsec Pirates- I am one

2. Highsec corps who live for battle and just want targets. I'm all for it



OP sits on a throne of lies.


1) Territory doesn't mean much to a lot of people, you take the space to get resources and then use those resources to defend the space in a endless silly cycle. Not much is to be made in PVP directly in the way of salvage or loot cause you will lose more on average than you gain due to things like blobs. The more you make your own blob to counter act this the more the loot is cut into smaller pieces.

2) The point here was that PVP being predatory is a problem as it makes good guys feel bad and it makes the "soft" ones quit. What we need is a "sporty" PVP with no "loser" in the sense of ego. It needs to be fights between peers where both sides can truly post "gf"s afterwards, not baby seal clubbing fests.

3) How are the technical issues a problem? Can you elaborate on that cause my first reaction is that solving whichever technical problems you're thinking of won't change the fact that the proliferation of KB jockeys is a problem. People are working for KB stats anyway they can, that's their goal, not the thrill of the fight but to have a "1337" status. It waters down the experience, specially when people do stupid **** for the sake of their KB stats.

4) Speak for yourself, I'm a caring individual that also likes PVP type games and I enjoy them with a level of sportsmanship. If I pop a newb I'll pay for a new ship (depending on size) or a advise him for later. I don't like being so much of a predator.

5) The point here is again that PVP is too predatory and has not much worth fighting for. The weekend warriors want to get in on the fight but they tend not to be too good at it. The OPs point is to purposefully let yourself get killed by these wannabes and to then stalk them within the 30 day kill rights, popping their shiny faction fit later. This is a case of predatory PVP driving away people because once you pop their shiny mission ship they start shying away from low sec PVP both because they don't want kill right to bite them in the ass again or because they can no longer afford it.

6) Unqualified? On what basis? That he posted with a PVE alt and you think he's much younger than he is or something? Personally I find that the PVP dicks are a bit of a reason to shy away from it. The point of the OP is that being in a corp with such people results in a lot of elitism that makes the would be PVPers leave because the elitist are always so hard on the new guy for being a newb and doing all their epeen waving that newer guys get discouraged by it. Even if they get kills it stops being as fun around these kinds of guys.

The Drake is a Lie
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#50 - 2012-10-31 00:07:10 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
Christopher AET wrote:
TLDR......You don't pvp because you are bad at it.



No the problem is that im extremely good at PvP (this is my pve alt)

but its mainly predatory PvP against people who dont want it. Look at the Human nature section of the post

The second you said this the thread turned into a boast thread

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-10-31 00:19:33 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
Christopher AET wrote:
TLDR......You don't pvp because you are bad at it.



No the problem is that im extremely good at PvP (this is my pve alt)

but its mainly predatory PvP against people who dont want it. Look at the Human nature section of the post

The second you said this the thread turned into a boast thread



no its not. i said its predatory which means pvp against pve. Not pvp against pvp. please read the human nature section
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#52 - 2012-10-31 00:20:26 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
Christopher AET wrote:
TLDR......You don't pvp because you are bad at it.



No the problem is that im extremely good at PvP (this is my pve alt)

but its mainly predatory PvP against people who dont want it. Look at the Human nature section of the post

The second you said this the thread turned into a boast thread



no its not. i said its predatory which means pvp against pve. Not pvp against pvp. please read the human nature section


He means you mentioning how good you are at PVP turned this thread into a thread about how good you are.

The Drake is a Lie
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-10-31 00:22:27 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
Christopher AET wrote:
TLDR......You don't pvp because you are bad at it.



No the problem is that im extremely good at PvP (this is my pve alt)

but its mainly predatory PvP against people who dont want it. Look at the Human nature section of the post


post with pvp alt to be taken seriously.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-10-31 00:28:09 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
Christopher AET wrote:
TLDR......You don't pvp because you are bad at it.



No the problem is that im extremely good at PvP (this is my pve alt)

but its mainly predatory PvP against people who dont want it. Look at the Human nature section of the post


post with pvp alt to be taken seriously.

Considering the OP is about reasons people don't PvP I'm not sure how it really matters.
Natasha Liao
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-10-31 00:31:20 UTC
Janet Patton wrote:
Great post.

I would like to get into PvP in EVE but just do not find it appealing to prey on other players who do not want to participate. Which seems to be what most of PvP is in this game.

When I feel the need to kill other people. I play something other then EVE, where everyone is willing to fight back.

There is 'consensual' PvP in EVE ( points to Corp ). We don't have to go on long roams. We loose ships. We have fun.

I joined RvB for reason #3: just to have fun blowing each other up and laughing about it afterwards. I never expect to re-dock a ship I undock. We can fly cheap'ish frigs, dessies and cruisers. Not too hard on the wallet and nothing is more fun than flying a small, fast little frig around blowing things up.

And as to the 'jack up the costs/lower the fun level' of High Sec getting me to go anywhere that somebody else thinks is the right place to play the game: there's only one place that would get me to go. And no you couldn't have my stuffz... Lol

You're using logic on an internet discussion forum. A rookie mistake, but one you'll soon learn to avoid. -Destiny Corrupted
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#56 - 2012-10-31 00:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
4. Human nature. There a many many people who do not want to predatory PvP as they don’t want to ruin someone’s day. Ganking a PvE fit tengu who is ratting does nothing for either party apart from ruin their day. They would not mind fighting another PvP corp if they could overcome all the points above.
including the fact of this, as much effort as it takes to be a successful indy means I don't have the time to worry if I pissed someone off who lost at PVP and now is seeking revenge or to win cause they hate losing and then become obsessed with you (and don't you lie people you know that people get locked on it). Ok well make a PVP alt, my alts are busy helping me.
Besides I do PVP...I just lose every time so it's not risk adverse I just PVP when I wish cause I pay the bill for this game to amuse myself.
Besides look out low sec I've got frigs and distroyers in the oven and im coming for you soon enough.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2012-10-31 00:37:12 UTC
The name is OP's corp is spot on.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-10-31 00:38:21 UTC
Null Sec ruins PvP and wonders why all the high sec people won't play.

The great mystery.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#59 - 2012-10-31 00:49:55 UTC
The funny bit is that the OP's other character per his words should be a fierce PVPer... but isn't.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#60 - 2012-10-31 01:26:08 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Gogela wrote:
A few things need to happen, and some of it CCP, knowingly or not, is already working on. First, you need to have something worth defending. The modular POS's (and man if we get a jump drive on those at some point that would really be sweet) would be such a thing if they do it right and you really feel like it's 'uniquely yours'. That's a good target. People would defend it, and others attack it. Next, empire space has to stop being the place you go to get rich. Nullsec should be the richest space... it should be better than wormholes or anything. 50% tax on all empire market transactions. Run up taxes on highsec manufacturing too... hell get rid of highsec manufacturing and research slots. level 4 missions go to lowsec. FW is fine. Incursions in highsec should be stupid and worthless.


Uhhuh, and when this is done we can all stand up and wave goodbye to 3/4 of the game's population.

I'm getting so tired of trying to explain this to people. You can't FORCE someone into PvP if they don't want to do it. You also cannot ENTICE them, no matter how stupidly high the reward is, if they don't want to do it. Same goes for every other facet of the game. The fact that majority of EVE's population remains in high sec proves that the majority of the population does not want to PvP, under the current PvP system at least. If you want to get people to PvP, you have to change how PvP works.

If you are having trouble seeing this, look at mining. Some people will not mine, not even AFK mine. Regardless of how much money you could be making from it. Why? Because it's a stupidly boring mechanic. Eve is a GAME. It is supposed to be fun. But you can't force people, or entice them into doing something that's boring and stupid and really should only be done by bots or AFKers (or both). The only solution is to change the way mining works. It seems CCP is finally starting to realize it. About time too, it's been what, 9 and a half years? That's why they're talking about changing mining to be more interactive with ring mining. Until the same is done for the PvP, the majority of people will do their darnest best to avoid it like the plague. for whatever their individual reason for doing so might be (and there's tons of valid reasons).

...and I'm getting tired of explaining that the changes I proposed there aren't changing the way you play. I'm tired of having to break everything down Barney style to slow-boaters. ...and I'm tired of people who can't see the big picture.

1) 3/4 of the population? Where do you get that crap. Like everything else it's pulled from your a**. It's such an outlandish number I can't believe anyone, even dumb people, would buy into it.

2) What would change? Would there still be mining in highsec? You bet. Missions? Check... up to level 3 no problem. You can even have epic level 3 arcs, I don't care. Incursions? Exploration? Sure. You ever explore in highsec? It's boring as hell... but it's there for people learning the mechanic. No change. Would there be a market? Yah. A crappy one in relative terms, but it'd still be there. You just don't need null sec ISK in highsec. So keep playing your stupid, isolated carebear games. I don't care. It doesn't have to change. All I'm saying is put a f****** carrot out there in null and low for those who want to live a little.

3) Actually, yah you can entice people to go to low and null. ATM there's no enticement what-so-ever. If you aren't going out there expressly TO PvP there is no reason to go. You don't have any frame of reference to make your claim about enticement.

4) Your mining observation demonstrates to me how small your EvE universe is. There are different play styles that appeal to different players. Some people like to mine. Some do not. That is correct, and you are also correct in saying that CCP couldn't pay me enough to mine. I've been playing since 2006 and have NEVER mined. I never will. What you don't get is such a simple analogy has no place in this discussion at all. It's not about WHAT you do, it's WHERE you do it. That adds value to space. If an industrialist makes an extra 20% building stuff in low... or an extra 50% in null, guess what? Highsec indys will go en-mass to the place where they can take their lurker indy shop to the mass-industry level. Miners mine in highsec because the resources are pretty much the same everywhere, and the money in null isn't worth the risk to their ships. I totally understand that, and in their shos would make the same decision. If, however, they made enough in null to easily replace those ships... ships that are cheaper in null anyway because that's where the industry is, how many miners do you think will move to null? I would bet a lot. Now you start getting a bigger population and market in null, and the shipping and market magnates are going to start coming in. All those warm bodies draw the fleets and lone wolves as well, and now we have in null and low what only exists in empire today: A frackin' player ecosystem.

Stop thinking you represent 3/4 of EvE. I can tell you with absolute certainty that they aren't that dumb.

Signatures should be used responsibly...