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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Faction Warfare - Same As It Ever Was

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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-10-30 21:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Easy enough - PvP has increased, fights are easy to find, FW isn't a comical income source (meaning hundreds of millions of isk per hour with zero effort and zero isk), warzone control sees noticeable movement, and everyone can afford basic PvP ships from the various income activities available.

Would you agree these are reasonable criteria for evaluating FW's success? Anything you'd add / subtract?
No.

My criteria for success:

1. People don't hop between factions, without penalty, depending on who is winning and who is losing.

2. People join the losing side in reasonably equal numbers to the winning side, because the benefits aren't so weighted towards the winners.

3. People can earn a living in FW from PvP. They shouldn't be forced into doing PvE to earn that living. PvE has it's place, but it should not be weighted an order of magnitude higher in importance than PvP.


Fights are always easy to find. CCP's ruleset has had little influence on that. Most people are in FW to PvP, so they'll find fights no matter. CCP's new rules have had no real bearing on the number of fights anr/or their quality.
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#82 - 2012-10-30 21:03:23 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
We don't see eye to eye on everything - but we have been partners in promoting the need for plexing visibility, timer rollbacks, and drastically reduced NPC's, and the total package of fixes to be released in December will reflect your hard work as well as my own.


FW will see success when CCP Devs responsible and you are sacked from their job/position as appropriate and whole tier system is removed but then again, CCP are eagerly waiting for december 4th and time when only two allied militias remain in existence for FW.

CCP decided to kick Caldari/Amarr in the groin because suddenly they decided "Oh dearie, farmville is bad, better make sure our favourite pet goats get the money and not the others" and most likely you encouraged them and leaked information about the changes coming ahead of schedule to your friends in militia.

Why I make this accusation? Because you leaked the plex timing bug to matars when I explained it how it works to you before I reported it to CCP. Suddenly my friends in Amarr reported massive abuse of said mechanism happening across that warzone.

You must also udnerstand this. Every Caldari militia player at the moment hates CCP's guts and you are most likely on top of their list for "morons who need to be tarred & feathered".
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#83 - 2012-10-30 21:04:06 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Because allot of people don't go for the tween girl aggression dressed up as null sec politics. They like to fly around and fight in their ships. There should be mechanics that promote that.
LOL, scoreboard. I encourage our esteemed collegues to review the killboards for themselves.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#84 - 2012-10-30 21:08:06 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Same with kills.
Hans does propose that kills receive all LP at the T5 multiplier, no matter what level of warzone control your faction is at. Which would be a good change.
How does this not lead to abuse at Tier 5?


I don't understand how this would lead to abuse. I'm suggesting that CCP decide what their upper limit is on a % value payout in the form of LP (lets assume for now that this is what you get paid at Tier 5) and institute that LP payout for all PvP kills, all the time, regardless of whether you are winning or losing. Essentially exempt PvP payouts from scaling, and pretend that everyone's at Tier 5 for purposes of PvP payouts.

If target availabilty is the primary reason to join the losing militia, I see no reason to make pilots choose between that and better pay for the same thing. I want to encourage people to sign up for PvP.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-10-30 21:09:32 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Same with kills.
Hans does propose that kills receive all LP at the T5 multiplier, no matter what level of warzone control your faction is at. Which would be a good change.
How does this not lead to abuse at Tier 5?


I don't understand how this would lead to abuse. I'm suggesting that CCP decide what their upper limit is on a % value payout in the form of LP (lets assume for now that this is what you get paid at Tier 5) and institute that LP payout for all PvP kills, all the time, regardless of whether you are winning or losing. Essentially exempt PvP payouts from scaling, and pretend that everyone's at Tier 5 for purposes of PvP payouts.

If target availabilty is the primary reason to join the losing militia, I see no reason to make pilots choose between that and better pay for the same thing. I want to encourage people to sign up for PvP.



See Goons "exploit"

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-10-30 21:11:39 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Same with kills.
Hans does propose that kills receive all LP at the T5 multiplier, no matter what level of warzone control your faction is at. Which would be a good change.
How does this not lead to abuse at Tier 5?
I don't understand how this would lead to abuse. I'm suggesting that CCP decide what their upper limit is on a % value payout in the form of LP (lets assume for now that this is what you get paid at Tier 5) and institute that LP payout for all PvP kills, all the time, regardless of whether you are winning or losing. Essentially exempt PvP payouts from scaling, and pretend that everyone's at Tier 5 for purposes of PvP payouts.

If target availabilty is the primary reason to join the losing militia, I see no reason to make pilots choose between that and better pay for the same thing. I want to encourage people to sign up for PvP.
See Goons "exploit"
The LP payout for PvP kills at T5 are already set at values that cannot be exploited. And that T5 payout is not even at the ceiling. It could go a tad higher without danger of any "goon 'spoits."
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#87 - 2012-10-30 21:16:29 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
And that T5 payout is not even at the ceiling. It could go a tad higher without danger of any "goon 'spoits."


Do you have a source for this? or math to demonstrate?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#88 - 2012-10-30 21:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Fair enough.

You haven't completely ignored me on this but it has taken an extremely low priority. CCP is shuffling fw constatnly and none of these changes have been implemented.

Susan's notion that minmatar were being punished for winning too much so they need lp for defensive plexing has been addressed pronto.

Meanwhile the issues to make this more of a pvp game have taken a back seat and will be implemented in a weak form if ever. Just knowing what the timer is in local is not enough. The timer rollbacks should be based only when an enemy lands on grid not just anytime you leave.


You seem to think I have something to do with CCP's release schedule. Lol

If I had my way we never would have seen payouts in the first place until the NPC overhaul and the other plex mechanics were addressed, but that ship sailed before I ever took office. The recent patch has everything to do with CCP finally waking up to the mess they created by throwing money at FW first instead of fixing the underlying issues, and releasing the code they had completed by this point. "Massaging the numbers" is exactly what it says - and obviously takes less time than altering core content structure and building custom new NPC AI. The realities of the production process here were what contributed to the order in which the Retribution changes rolled out, I've been quite clear about what I want to see in what order, and been outspoken about the fact that CCP was doing the right things in the wrong order from the beginning.

But by all means, continue to blame Susan for it all, everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Twisted.



If they wanted to simply reduce the payouts they could have just said that tier 1 gets the old pay outs. tier 2 gets a 10% decrease in price. Tier 3 gets a 20% decrease tier 4 a 30% and tier 5 a 50%.

But instead you had them changing all sorts of things around which just made the whole deal worse. Including answering susans cries to give lp for d-plexing, and botching the payout system even though it never really got any substantial support on the forums.

Plenty of people, including myself, posted the problems with those changes and you ignored them.

I never asked for a new npc ai. In fact I said it would be a waste of time because fw should be pvp focused. I agree that the ui changes will make it more pvp focused but its completely unnecessary. The simple change I suggested is not slated to happen at all.

CCP will fail all of the goals I set forth.

If you do not alter what ccp does, and when they do them, then I do not know the point of the csm.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Anyways about this timer rollback - what do you mean exactly? Maybe I've missed something in our previous discussions, I'm hoping you can elaborate on "enemy lands on grid not just anytime you leave". If two players are both on the timer, why would it not just stop moving completely until one has defeated the other? There's still a month left, if there's a better way to tweak this I'm all ears.


I will ask susan to write this on her blog so you get it. P

The timer should only roll back if an enemy is on grid with you or on grid with the accel gate.

Lets say I am in a plex and I fight someone. I kill him or chase him out but now I am in structure and the rats start shooting me again. Can I go the 5 jumps I need to go to repair? Or will I lose my time on the clock?

Lets say I am doing a plex and an enemy opens another one in the same system as me. Can I go fight him/ chase him out or will my own clock start rolling back?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-10-30 21:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
And that T5 payout is not even at the ceiling. It could go a tad higher without danger of any "goon 'spoits."
Do you have a source for this? or math to demonstrate?
You are the source. You mentioned this "fact" three or so times during the Hans Visits Fweddit discussion.

Even if you weren't the source, it would be silly for CCP not to give themselves some wiggle room on the issue.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#90 - 2012-10-30 21:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
I think Han's point is that whatever the top percent is everyone should get that for pvp kills.

Deciding what the top percent is can be tricky. But even after the goons trick, ccp did not completely do away with lp for kills.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#91 - 2012-10-30 21:42:25 UTC
Cearain wrote:
The timer should only roll back if an enemy is on grid with you or on grid with the accel gate.
Ridiculous. The reason for the rollback is to discourage rabbits who bounce from plex to plex. There is a consequence for them leaving the plex. I'm sorry that you won a fight (your stated reason for beng in FW), but weren't able to get the LP.

Bottom Line: You got the fight. You should be happy. Right?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#92 - 2012-10-30 21:43:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I think Han's point is that whatever the top percent is everyone should get that for pvp kills.

Deciding what the top percent is can be tricky. But even after the goons trick, ccp did not completely do away with lp for kills.

Once you decide on what that non-exploitable percentage is, then its not really a Tier 5 payout is it? It's a constant payout not related to the Tier system.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#93 - 2012-10-30 22:00:11 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
The timer should only roll back if an enemy is on grid with you or on grid with the accel gate.
Ridiculous. The reason for the rollback is to discourage rabbits who bounce from plex to plex. There is a consequence for them leaving the plex. I'm sorry that you won a fight (your stated reason for beng in FW), but weren't able to get the LP.

Bottom Line: You got the fight. You should be happy. Right?



Did you even read the scenarios?

You impress me less and less with every post XG.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#94 - 2012-10-30 22:02:55 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I think Han's point is that whatever the top percent is everyone should get that for pvp kills.

Deciding what the top percent is can be tricky. But even after the goons trick, ccp did not completely do away with lp for kills.

Once you decide on what that non-exploitable percentage is, then its not really a Tier 5 payout is it? It's a constant payout not related to the Tier system.


Thats what he is saying. It shouldn't be related to tiers. Just give the same lp to everyone.

Now they give more lp depending on the tier.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#95 - 2012-10-30 22:25:21 UTC
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
The timer should only roll back if an enemy is on grid with you or on grid with the accel gate.
Ridiculous. The reason for the rollback is to discourage rabbits who bounce from plex to plex. There is a consequence for them leaving the plex. I'm sorry that you won a fight (your stated reason for beng in FW), but weren't able to get the LP.
Bottom Line: You got the fight. You should be happy. Right?

Did you even read the scenarios?
You impress me less and less with every post XG.

Shouldn't matter. Rabbit warps out at first sign of trouble in system and timer doesn't run down? Nah.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#96 - 2012-10-30 23:27:13 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
The timer should only roll back if an enemy is on grid with you or on grid with the accel gate.
Ridiculous. The reason for the rollback is to discourage rabbits who bounce from plex to plex. There is a consequence for them leaving the plex. I'm sorry that you won a fight (your stated reason for beng in FW), but weren't able to get the LP.
Bottom Line: You got the fight. You should be happy. Right?

Did you even read the scenarios?
You impress me less and less with every post XG.

Shouldn't matter. Rabbit warps out at first sign of trouble in system and timer doesn't run down? Nah.



Neither scenario involved a rabbit warping out. Neither scenario involved any "signs of trouble" from any other players.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#97 - 2012-10-31 00:28:03 UTC
I think most of my 'thumbs up' are from Cearain during the initial fw discussions, but at the moment you arnt making any real sense.

Timers should start counting back only when plex is empty.

The current mechanics are very good, though defensive plexing at tier 4 is still a good income for afk stabbed atrons down to 30% contested.

Fact is that Happy endings mounted a campaign to take a system, and they got it. Progress is harder on their next target but then they arnt really putting the effort in to the same levels.

I think people got accustomed to the idea that systems will fall vulnerable inside 3 days with no effort, the new system removed that which is good in my opinion.

To be brutally honest, while i have doubts about the exact rewards for d-plexing, specially at higher tiers. I am without a single doubt that if the dice fell while caldari had most system, the forum would be full of caldari telling gallente to HTFU.

Little tweaks may be needed but i think this is a large improvement overall.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#98 - 2012-10-31 00:43:44 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

To be brutally honest, while i have doubts about the exact rewards for d-plexing, specially at higher tiers. I am without a single doubt that if the dice fell while caldari had most system, the forum would be full of caldari telling gallente to HTFU.

Little tweaks may be needed but i think this is a large improvement overall.

Maybe reduce LP payout for defensive plexing or perhaps decouple it from Tier multiplier. Ridiculous LP for afk atrons. Not that my alts are complaining....
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#99 - 2012-10-31 01:33:28 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Timers should start counting back only when plex is empty..


I think the timer should only count backwards if an enemy is on grid in plex in warp from the accel gate or on grid with the accel gate.


Lets say I am in a plex and I fight someone. I kill him or chase him out but now I am in structure and the rats start shooting me again. Can I go the 5 jumps I need to go to repair? Or will I lose my time on the clock?

Lets say I am doing a plex and an enemy opens another one in the same system as me. Can I go fight him/ chase him out or will my own clock start rolling back?

I don't think I should lose my time in either situation. If I lose time in the latter situation this mechanic will actually prevent pvp. If no enemy is on grid I should be able to warp off and my time shouldn't be lost.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#100 - 2012-10-31 01:38:49 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

The current mechanics are very good, though defensive plexing at tier 4 is still a good income for afk stabbed atrons down to 30% contested..


There is no economic balance in the current mechanics. If they happened to do this change when caldari were ahead gallente would be burried and you would start to bleed players.

Caldari may be able to make a comeback for a variety of reasons. But after the dust settles the winners will just stay winners and losing side will remain that way.

There is no longer any hope that the losing side can achieve a big cashout. It will just be the losing side doing the same work for less pay until they get a clue and join a different faction. Or at best people will just stop caring about plexing altogether.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815