These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rengerel en Distel
#481 - 2012-10-18 18:50:19 UTC
Planetwhore001 wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
Planetwhore001 wrote:
Chuckling at the idea that a PVP fit will tank and destroy spawning waves of NPC's over an extended time.

Seriously head over to BC and check out PVP vs PVE fits, there is no comparison. Fighting rats is PVE work, it demands PVE fits and by reducing their DPS to "low" is not going to change that fact.

You want to force PVP into a PVE hat and coat ... guess what it aint gonna work. Lets get down to the nitty gritty here shall we? You effed up with the last update to FW. Lucky for CCP the goons couldn't keep a lid on the absurd loophole your "testing" failed to find [SERIOUSLY not one of your QA guys thought to check???] and CCP got to look all hardcore by flinging around enough mud to cover their own ineptitude.


LOL...what?

A typical brawler Drake can easily run a major outpost and even an open major provided you kill the original spawn from range before triggering timer. Hell, I used to run MEDIUMS with a Hookbill because I was too lazy to reship, back when the NPCs had EWAR.

Unarmed Incursus aren't PVP ships.



Quite agree, unarmed Incursus are not PVP ships, they are PVE ships tuned to the requirements of the content they are engaged in.

As for Drake comment, good luck with that after the winter nerf-date. Seriously, yes there are PVP ships that can double up, the fact that CCP are making it even easier by removing Ewar once more caving to a minority community in a vain attempt to keep their pet system alive.

Hey CCP if those involved in FW started bleating for free carriers I bet you would start seeding them for LP. One cave after another.


I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make, as you're already totally uninformed about FW plexes (current and future).

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Roddex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#482 - 2012-10-22 18:47:26 UTC
Any word on where Tech 3 Cruisers fit into the planned system (at least the current plan)?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#483 - 2012-10-22 19:35:58 UTC
No major changes made to the stuff coming tomorrow so wouldn't expect them to not go with the three size system, meaning they will be allowed in mediums = ISK backbone wins every fight. Good times Smile
FistyMcBumBasher
State War Academy
Caldari State
#484 - 2012-10-23 11:36:51 UTC
I think the idea to show a timer in local for the plex timer is a bad idea. It will just create more people bum rushing the timer as soon as it is ending in order to eject people/whore lp. I see no need for this and fail to see how it would enhance the pvp experience.
Anya Doshu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#485 - 2012-10-23 12:36:49 UTC
TL:DR Most of this 25 pages, so it may have been mentioned.

From a non-FW pilot perspective.

Removing a 'range' limitation to 'occupancy' of a plex by a WT seems to open a possible exploit via grid-fu. It would appear to now be possible to 'occupy' a plex from a range of several thousand kilometers.
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#486 - 2012-10-23 12:39:11 UTC
FistyMcBumBasher wrote:
I think the idea to show a timer in local for the plex timer is a bad idea. It will just create more people bum rushing the timer as soon as it is ending in order to eject people/***** lp. I see no need for this and fail to see how it would enhance the pvp experience.



I suspect the idea is to make it easier to find fights, plexes working as "mini-arenas" with ship restrictions and a beacon blaring out "come here for pvp!" all over the system. To avoid people whoring in on lp you could simply put a little marker next to the beacon signifying that it is being run, and by whom.
Mutrin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2012-10-23 23:28:09 UTC
thx CCP for killing a low-sec and a militia.
Jhaelee de'Auvrie
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#488 - 2012-10-24 08:06:21 UTC
For the most part, this most recent modification to the FW plex system has been great. Gone are the ab-frigate LP farmers because of the need to now combat the NPCs. Here in though is a potential problem that I came across.

The staggered spawn time and fact that the timer pauses every time a spawn appears means a 50%-100% extension on the time it takes to close each plex. Soloing minor plexes taking 15 minutes is one thing, but trying to solo a Major-Unrestricted is easily an hour long ordeal.

If this is intented, then it changes the time/reward balance of the plexes heavily. Today’s plex patrols saw quick jumping on minor plexes, but majors of all of the types completely being ignored.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#489 - 2012-10-24 10:36:35 UTC
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote:
For the most part, this most recent modification to the FW plex system has been great. Gone are the ab-frigate LP farmers because of the need to now combat the NPCs. Here in though is a potential problem that I came across.

The staggered spawn time and fact that the timer pauses every time a spawn appears means a 50%-100% extension on the time it takes to close each plex. Soloing minor plexes taking 15 minutes is one thing, but trying to solo a Major-Unrestricted is easily an hour long ordeal.

If this is intented, then it changes the time/reward balance of the plexes heavily. Today’s plex patrols saw quick jumping on minor plexes, but majors of all of the types completely being ignored.

Would love it if majors were kept as the ones requiring a gang, soloing them always stroked me the wrong way. My worry is that the NCs coming in December will be too anaemic and can be dropped by any sufficiently large amount of dps, I sort of expect the new Thorax in shield config will be the standard when it comes to future plexing.

But .. might be an idea to look at timers and perhaps reduce them by a bit to account for them not running with a rat present.
Rengerel en Distel
#490 - 2012-10-24 15:03:47 UTC
With Retribution, it'll be one npc (most likely), so you won't have to be killing off waves of npcs.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Atomic Option
NO Tax FAT Stacks
#491 - 2012-10-28 23:26:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between.

So we'll tweak based on test server feedback.



So THAT's why sleepers hate drones so much. I feel bad for shooting Batmans though. Batman is awesome.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#492 - 2012-10-29 01:15:46 UTC
If I were to decide Plex sizes, I'd have


1) Rookie (T1 frigates, +faction frigates, maybe)
2) Minor (T2 Destroyers and smaller)
3) Medium (T1 cruisers and smaller)
4) Medium Advanced (BCs and smaller)
5) Major (BS down, with acc gate)
6) Unrestricted (no gate, cynos, alltheshit)

all spawning with the same probability.

I don't think a wider variety of sizes is a problem as long as the information can be read up when clicking the beacon in local (and not just at the Acc Gate, as it is now).




And a system upgrade that could pick on of these plex types and stop their spawning would also be interesting.



P.S: I wonder what CCPs plans for plex sizes look like, right now ?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#493 - 2012-10-29 21:26:44 UTC
BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.

Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior
1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.
I Abstain
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2012-10-30 05:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: I Abstain
Level 5 upgraded system , 16% contested, Major Outpost, 20 minutes to complete

Loyalty points awarded for militia effort
From: Tribal Liberation Force
Sent: 2012.10.30 04:27

In recognition of your effort to secure our strategic facility in the contested system of Dal, Tribal Liberation Force grants you 7.810 loyalty points.



3 minutes later my ship gets destroyed, damage 12M isk (fully T2 fitted Incursus, including guns for pvp).

In the old situation 7.810LP would be a ~24M profit (based on a netto profit of selling 2x standard implant)

In the new situation i cannot even buy 1 implant but just 50%, so let´s say i make 2 runs = ~ 15.000LP . I need 12.000LP in order to be able to buy 1x standard implant and costs 12M isk.

Conclusion:
With the new FW system there are WAY more hostiles around and so securing a 20 minutes time costing Major Outpost has become a burden!
1st. There´s a good risk you won´t even be able to make the full 20 minutes.
2nd. The risk your ship gets podded has become quite a risk that that will happen (since the new FW update) as there are way more hostiles around now.

Risk vs Reward = negative!

In the above situation you make 1500 LP for 20 minutes of securing a major outpost based on Level 5 (225%bonus) and 16% contested (you will not find much higher than this)). As there aren´t that many L5 systems that are contested, imagine your netto reward resulting to be even less LP's!

Reward calculation:
A quick calculation that i made is, based on current market value for a standard implant, a netto profit of around 8 million isk. That is based on selling a standard implant on the market at current value of 20M isk. It costed me 12,000LP and 12M isk to purchase one from the Militia store.
So 12,000 LP = 8M profit
In the given example of the 1500LP netto reward of securing a 20 minutes costing major outpost i made a whopping 1 million isk Ugh


Final words:
Yes, the old situation was too rewarding but currently the Risk vs Reward is totally not worth the effort at all!


I suggest the following improvements:

1. Reduce the time to complete the outposts, compounds etc. by 50%

2. Increase LP rewards by Rank, i.e. a ranked General should earn more LP than a foot soldier (Warrior)

and / or

Create site´s that can be accessed based on Rank rather than by ship type.
A General should be able to get access to more exclusive Outposts with better LP rewards.


/ I Abstain
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#495 - 2012-10-30 09:56:22 UTC
So you are in a frigate defending a major outpost (designed for BCs!) in a 'base' (read: reships abundant) system and complain that risk/reward is off-kilter?
Profit ought to be contingent on peoples ability not to die .. you died and lost more than you gained .. how is that wrong? Smile

Rank should have meaning, but since everyone are maxed within a month it would become meaningless in a heartbeat.
I Abstain
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#496 - 2012-10-30 16:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: I Abstain
In fact in my post i state that even a reward based on max. income (major outpost, level 5, 16% contested) is not worth the risk and effort.

Medium and small outposts are not safer at all and you still need to do the same " rituals" that are a great risk like warping to the activation gate, jumping from system to system to find a free outpost and a true risk to get smartbombed at the gates and so on.

In all honosty i really tried to prove my statement wrong today, changed ship types, moved from amarr/minmatar to gallente/caldari regions resulting in a loss of 3 full fitted (T2) incursus, loss of 2x slasher and the loss of a pod with 70M implants.
That is 110M loss in just one day and in result zero outposts of any type taken/secured.


As said in my earlier post the risk vs income have become re-tarded since the patch.


Statement:
My post is for Devs to read , they can check today´s kill history of this toon vs reward.
Dev´s should bring in a better balance and it´s quite urgent.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#497 - 2012-10-30 17:45:34 UTC
Understood your post perfectly, you insist on competing in a Pro Tour race (ex. Tour de France) riding a tri-cycle and expect management to change the rules to accommodate your choice of transportation.

Income options have increased since patch as defensive work now pays for the time spent, it is not the systems fault that you think you should be able to make a profit in what is a PvP activity (plexing) without actually participating in said activity.
Get a crew together, blow the people standing in your way to smithereens and spread out to available plexes .. unite crew again if enemy has the audacity to reship and come back for more.

If you want to make a profit without all the evil, evil risk then do FW missions. Still solo'able in a bomber (if against Amarr) with no changes until December at the earliest.

In short: FW should be about the pew. Nothing more and nothing less. If one can't hack it in the Blood Bowl then one needs to look elsewhere .. it is a WARZONE, either learn how to kill or survive .. if neither is applicable to your situation then you are in the wrong place to begin with.

PS: Defensive LP is an abomination and should be removed ASAP. Acquiring, fighting for and holding a system should be the only reward in itself (read: meaningful upgrade paths).
PPS: Post for the devs .. on a public forum .. perhaps an email and/or petition would be a better option to get shot down by someone with "proper" credentials.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#498 - 2012-10-30 18:12:30 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.

Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior
1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.



This is the infamous bug that was confirmed to have been fixed (again, and again, and again, and again....)

If this is still happening, its likely a byproduct of the recent changes to plex mechanics, because this is the first time I've heard of it since CCP confirmed it being fixed a few weeks after the May summit.

If you're getting this consistently, send me any details you have about how to reproduce it (is it happening in EVERY plex, all the time, or what?) and I'll make sure they get to Fozzie and the team.

Thanks

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#499 - 2012-10-30 20:49:07 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.

Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior
1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.



This is the infamous bug that was confirmed to have been fixed (again, and again, and again, and again....)

If this is still happening, its likely a byproduct of the recent changes to plex mechanics, because this is the first time I've heard of it since CCP confirmed it being fixed a few weeks after the May summit.

If you're getting this consistently, send me any details you have about how to reproduce it (is it happening in EVERY plex, all the time, or what?) and I'll make sure they get to Fozzie and the team.

Thanks

1. Create plexing alt.
2. Scan down plex.
3. Warp plexing alt to plex.
4. Warp plexing alt into plex.
5. Move plexing alt to timer.
5.5 Go to lunch (do laundry, watch Alliance Tournament videos, whatever)
6. Plex completed.
7. Don't move plexing alt.
??
8. Plex does not despawn.
Rengerel en Distel
#500 - 2012-10-31 22:03:08 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.

Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior
1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.



This is the infamous bug that was confirmed to have been fixed (again, and again, and again, and again....)

If this is still happening, its likely a byproduct of the recent changes to plex mechanics, because this is the first time I've heard of it since CCP confirmed it being fixed a few weeks after the May summit.

If you're getting this consistently, send me any details you have about how to reproduce it (is it happening in EVERY plex, all the time, or what?) and I'll make sure they get to Fozzie and the team.

Thanks


I've never had a plex despawn if someone is still inside. Are you sure that's the bug they said they were fixing. Nothing else that i know of despawns if someone is still there, so would be odd for FW plexes to be the only thing.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.