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The Hypocrisy of High Sec

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Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-30 16:10:12 UTC
A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say “stop pushing us around, we don’t want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We don’t tell you how to play so you can’t tell us how to play”.

I think this is not a fair argument.

Consider a situation where all PVPers in the game agreed to fight each other until one entered structure, at that point a killmail would be generated and the loser, who had entered structure, would be obliged to return to a station and not to use that ship again for 24 hours.

Under this arrangement PVP would continue but industrial activity, in all but ammo manufacturing, would cease to exist. All pilots would buy one or two copies of each ship in the game and would not need to buy ships again. It would be a PVP paradise, with no need to grind money to pay for ships you could fight and fight forever.

Now obviously nobody wants this but it illustrates the point, all industrial activity in EVE is built on risk. It is founded on people taking a risk, screwing up and getting blown up. This creates the opportunity to build a new ship. It is very rare people undock wanting to get blown up and when they do get blown up it is because they were taking a risk to achieve something they want and it went wrong.

Of course there is the expansion of the subscriber base, when new players want new ships, but expansion also creates new industrialists so overall it’s effect is small.

So this means if you want to mine or make ships or trade what you are doing is profiting off someone who took a risk and got blown up and now has to replace their ship. So saying you want to do any of these things but not have anything to do with those nasty PVPers is completely hypocritical. Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you can’t say “leave us alone” because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do.

So saying, “I want to be safe in high sec and just to be an industrialist” is inherently creating a two tier system, where the PVPers take all the risk and then industrialists get all the rewards. It’s unbalanced. It’s like PVPers asking for ships that respawn, it just distorts the game in the favour of one specific group.

Industrialists who seek great rewards should have to take great risks to get them. This feeds the system with risk and allows those rewards to be generated. It is fair, everyone in the game takes risks to get rewards.

I don’t think anyone should be allowed to play a communal game and get rewards without risk while others take extra risks to compensate. The risk of mining and manufacturing and trading in high sec is too low, it is very close to zero, yet the rewards are high. This is unacceptable.

High sec needs to be balanced. If you want to be safe you must put up with being poor, if you want to be rich you should take risks.

So no wonder people say “leave us alone, we like it as it is”.

Thanks
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-10-30 16:10:22 UTC
So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.

I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.

Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.

These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heart’s content. But it wouldn’t be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would balance the game and cause everyone to take risks for their rewards.

TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.

Thanks
Sidrat Flush
School of Applied Knowledge
#3 - 2012-10-30 16:14:21 UTC
It's a risk to pit an item on the market because tomorrow it could patched out of the game. Or the mineral prices could rise creating a potential loss to the builder.

It's a small tldr for a two page post.

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#4 - 2012-10-30 16:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Geligdio Khan wrote:
A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say “stop pushing us around, we don’t want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We don’t tell you how to play so you can’t tell us how to play”.

I think this is not a fair



Life ain't a fair get over it & stop your whine
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Nanatoa
#5 - 2012-10-30 16:21:32 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
“stop pushing us around"


I do hear that a lot, except with "bumping" instead of "pushing" Blink

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Robert De'Arneth
#6 - 2012-10-30 16:22:28 UTC
Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet.

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 
Sharise Dragonstar
Big Strong
Hisec Miners
#7 - 2012-10-30 16:24:37 UTC
I agree with the mining proposals but maybe have scordite and pyrite available in high sec too. The mission idea I disagree with risk vs reward has to be balanced and running a lvl 4 in low sec is suicidal as pirates will just converge on mission hub area scan you down, wait for you to get room aggro, scramble you and boom. PvP fitted ships are not suitable for mission running and vice versa.

Biggest issue you will face is that you will be correct in high seccers moving out of high sec due to little profits, however it will not be to either low or null sec but to a different game. Could CCP afford the loss of that many accounts?
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#8 - 2012-10-30 16:24:41 UTC
Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions.
lol.
CCP Falcon
#9 - 2012-10-30 16:27:08 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet.



This is an awesome post Big smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#10 - 2012-10-30 16:33:13 UTC
"Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you can’t say “leave us alone” because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do."

That sentence seems to be based on the assumption that the one and only thing PvPers do is blow up industrialists. Totally not true, most ships that die do so when two or more PvP pilots fight. If it was impossible to attack a ship in high sec without cause (like a war dec, or criminal activity) the total ships destroyed in the game would drop only a tiny amount. Industrialists would still have plenty of buyers.

PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained.

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Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-10-30 16:39:38 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions.
lol.



HAHA

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-10-30 16:40:45 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
"Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you can’t say “leave us alone” because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do."

That sentence seems to be based on the assumption that the one and only thing PvPers do is blow up industrialists. Totally not true, most ships that die do so when two or more PvP pilots fight. If it was impossible to attack a ship in high sec without cause (like a war dec, or criminal activity) the total ships destroyed in the game would drop only a tiny amount. Industrialists would still have plenty of buyers.

PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained.


Thanks for the input.

My point is Industrialists want to sell to PVPers and PVEers, that's the primary way they interact, and it is intrinsic to the life of the industrialist.

Sure you could go out and mine and manufacture and fill hangar after hangar with rifters, but I doubt many people play like that, most people want to sell what they make. That needs a buyer, and in most cases, that buyer took a risk, got unlucky and now has to replace their ship.

Thanks
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-10-30 16:42:47 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions.
lol.



Well I think missions are deeply tied to industry. Supplying them is big business. So moving them out of High Sec would move a lot of industrials out with them.

But I see your point.

Thanks
Vel'drinn
Sanguine Vipers
#14 - 2012-10-30 16:45:17 UTC
I actually find it even more rewarding to murder people with ships I've built, including bullets crafted with love Smile
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-10-30 16:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Montevius Williams
Geligdio Khan wrote:
So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.

I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.

Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.

These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heart’s content. But it wouldn’t be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would balance the game and cause everyone to take risks for their rewards.

TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.



Why is your 15 bucks a month more important than mine?

I agree with the mineral distribution.
Disagree with themanfuacturing change. That would do nothing except raise the end cost of products and industrialist would just pass that cost back to you. If you want to change hi sec manufacturing, make it so that

-You have to be in a player corp to do manufacturing on a large scale
-You have to conduct manufacturing processes at a POS in hi sec
-Your corp has to have good standing with NPC corp to manufacture at their station(s)

The level 4 changes are not good. Instead:

-Make it so that you need to be in a player corp in order to run level 3 or 4 missions



Edit - To say that industrialists dont take risks is very uninformed. C'mon man, really?

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#16 - 2012-10-30 16:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarvos Telesto
How about hipocricy of null bears and pvprs ? They need stuf to pvp - kill and gank other, but they hate carebears who mining ore and bulid ships for them, also zero logic... In theory more they hate miners, more they pay for ice - ore and higer cost of ships and other stuf, because less people mining or is just hard to get ore due to risk, populations needs etc.

I hear EvE is santbox, please dont force people to play like you want, you got own vision of gaming but you are wrong.
Empire is basic game content and part of EvE same like null space and both places got own rules and purpose.

Your vision of ore in empire is totaly wrong, people who love mining or industry need a lot specific ores and stuf to do, imagine if here only tritanium in empire to mining, sorry but this is EvE not pacman, universe it self should be rich and offer even more type of ores - minerals than existed in game, like in real universe.

EvE isn't game, its style of living.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-10-30 17:06:34 UTC
Awesome....

Another Future war target. What a horrible post.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-10-30 17:07:05 UTC
OP,

I get what you're trying to say, but you totally miss the point.

High sec exists for a reason. It's why it's called High Sec. As in, "High Security". It comes with a large number of penalties. If someone wants to stay in secure space, and pay for it through these penalties, that's their business. There's absolutely nothing hypocritical about that at all.

And while I totally agree industry is based on resupplying after a loss, the resupply can happen with raw materials coming from all security areas. I know people who prefer mining in null rather than high sec. I know one guy who lives in a wormhole, but still manufactures.

Your argument that "if all PvP would stop at structure, EVE industry would die" is also very one-sided. Because if all industrialists suddenly decided to stop producing, EVE would also die. Things like ammo, cap boosters, drones, etc., would all have to come from someplace. You can't PvP without drones or ammo. You could make your own, but that doesn't fit into my "everyone stops production" rule, as "everyone" includes you. It also illustrates that your "everyone stops shooting at structure" rule is just as flawed, as many people would continue shooting for the heck of it (let's face it, a large percentage of EVE's population isn't exactly normal).

Bottom line, I see no hypocrisy. If EVE is a sandbox, people should be free to play the way they like. If someone wants to produce items from the safety of high sec, they should have that option and it should be viable. You should also have the option to kill them, and you do (ganking, wardecs, what have you). So what's the problem?
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#19 - 2012-10-30 17:11:22 UTC
More awful nonsense from the delusional hermits of 0.0.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Anslo
Scope Works
#20 - 2012-10-30 17:13:02 UTC
You seem...upset.

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