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The future of Community and CCL

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#741 - 2012-10-30 13:06:47 UTC
Just to not be all "ad hominem" here's another example. Where is there a personal attack that would cause a fast lock? A guy doing songs by request for isk to buy a super isn't in the spirit of sandbox games like EvE?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=167644&find=unread


(I'm not trying to discuss moderation, which I know is against the rules, nor cross post. I am giving examples of ISD moderation gone wild in a thread made by moderators about the future of PLAYER moderation. You asked for it; you got it.)
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#742 - 2012-10-30 14:19:07 UTC
If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now. Last week CCP Navigator made an announcement that we now have a zero tolerance policy towards berating the ISD. Please try to cooperate with us in our efforts.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#743 - 2012-10-30 14:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
CCP Gargant wrote:
If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now. Last week CCP Navigator made an announcement that we now have a zero tolerance policy towards berating the ISD. Please try to cooperate with us in our efforts.


So you're saying we can't discuss instances where ISD behavior is bad, only when it's good?

What's the point of this or the other moderation discussion thread then?

Pointing out bad acts in public is not "berating" anyone. It's pointing out actions and explaining why the actions are bad. Why you seem to have decided that the fact that those actions are attached to individuals and thus commentary about those actions is equivalent to commentary about the individuals is beyond me.

Wrongly accusing someone of making an argumentum ad hominem can be (and in this case is) an example of an attempt to poison the well.

Minmatar Citizen's statement that the ISD Program is bad also cannot be described as berating ISDs because the Program is not a person.


As for petitions, I'll use petitions to discuss problems with CCP employees the moment I'm allowed to make the content of those petitions public. Secret discussions are not valuable in discussing public policy. (Especially since I've seen the contents of a number of petitions where the GMs ended up getting quite nasty towards the players they're meant to be assisting. Including one that ended in a reversal and apology from a higher up to the player in question, though no apology from the GM who was being belligerent.)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
flakeys
Doomheim
#744 - 2012-10-30 15:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Quote:

Unfortunately I didn't actually see what happened, but it sounds like a thread was posted, replies were made that devolved into trolling, and the entire thread was locked wholesale without the OP getting an answer. Then a repeating feedback loop was created as subsequent threads were made to get that answer and of course, threads were locked for duplication and/or discussing moderation (first thread locked, continued BZZT! discussing moderation, etc.)

What probably should have happened was the moderators should have taken the time to remove or edit the offensive posts and make a post reminding people to politely stay on topic. Afterwards if the thread continued on course it could be locked wholesale and the forum users would not have much of a leg to stand on if they opposed the action.




I was following that thread and in my opinion what went wrong was the OP showed his concern about the eve-o forums wich he claimed to not have visited untill a few days back even if he was a 2003 player and then asked for a thread lock while the discussion still was going on because of a select few playing a bit of troll.In short he had a VERRY thin skin when it came to how people tend to behave on these forums.I was even surprised to be honest how little trolling that topic had compared to normal eve player behaviour on the forums.The OP of that thread new perfectly well what the forum behaviour was as his topic WAS just about that so i found it sad to say the least that he asked for a threadlock after some minor trolling.

I'm all for removing posts and locking threads in wich the language has taken an aggresive stance regarding rl threats , plain trolling page after page , etc but if you post on a forum you should also be prepared to get some kicking left and right.Hell i got my own share of kicks on the forums from people either plain trolling me or disagreeing with me in a not too healthy way but that never made me ask for a threadlock or a post removal.

In short if you post on public forums you gotta have some skin or just don't post there at all.You can perfectly play eve without using the forums so no one is forcing you to engage in this verbal pvp .There need to be rules but there also needs to be freedom in the same line of the game.Acting like 'my little pony' on the forum from a game where you play 'lick the dead skull' doesn't quite make sense to me.

I find the behaviour on this forum not that far off from the behaviour in the game and as we are still chatting here with the same avatar , corp tag and alliance tag it is normal to make the forum an enhancement of your character don't you think?

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#745 - 2012-10-30 15:20:12 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

So you're saying we can't discuss instances where ISD behavior is bad, only when it's good?

What's the point of this or the other moderation discussion thread then?

Pointing out bad acts in public is not "berating" anyone. It's pointing out actions and explaining why the actions are bad. Why you seem to have decided that the fact that those actions are attached to individuals and thus commentary about those actions is equivalent to commentary about the individuals is beyond me.

Wrongly accusing someone of making an argumentum ad hominem can be (and in this case is) an example of an attempt to poison the well.

Minmatar Citizen's statement that the ISD Program is bad also cannot be described as berating ISDs because the Program is not a person.

As for petitions, I'll use petitions to discuss problems with CCP employees the moment I'm allowed to make the content of those petitions public. Secret discussions are not valuable in discussing public policy. (Especially since I've seen the contents of a number of petitions where the GMs ended up getting quite nasty towards the players they're meant to be assisting. Including one that ended in a reversal and apology from a higher up to the player in question, though no apology from the GM who was being belligerent.)


For general discussions regarding the broad strokes of our moderation actions, for example asking why we lock some threads but not others, belongs in the moderation thread here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=163320

For specific instances of moderation, file a petition. Yes, discussing correspondence with CCP personnel is not allowed but this is the way we handle specific criticisms.

Any comments on the ISD moderators should be petitioned. Discussing anything regarding them directly on the forums will result in a timeout from the forums. Note that their moderation efforts are the same as ours so bring the broad strokes to the thread and the specifics for the petitions. They equal us in that sense.

Now. Stop twisting our words. Stop ignoring our instructions. Please direct all further discussions on our moderation methods to the thread I linked. I will delete all posts discussing that topic from this and all other threads as well.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator
Twoso
Doomheim
#746 - 2012-10-30 15:39:07 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
Now. Stop twisting our words. Stop ignoring our instructions. Please direct all further discussions on our moderation methods to the thread I linked. I will delete all posts discussing that topic from this and all other threads as well.


I am really tired of this sort of thing from Devs/ISD. Stop power tripping. Stop giving commands. Stop being like this. You guys spend more time moderating than solving basic game problems. You want to power trip? Go do something about the clusterfuck you've created with the war dec system.
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#747 - 2012-10-30 15:42:49 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
For specific instances of moderation, file a petition. Yes, discussing correspondence with CCP personnel is not allowed but this is the way we handle specific criticisms.

Any comments on the ISD moderators should be petitioned. Discussing anything regarding them directly on the forums will result in a timeout from the forums. Note that their moderation efforts are the same as ours so bring the broad strokes to the thread and the specifics for the petitions. They equal us in that sense.


The other important aspect to note is that we CANNOT discuss or address issues of specific moderation or actions UNLESS you submit a petition. We have a system like this to ensure security and ethical behaviour in our CCP and CCL teams, and posting in the general forum about any specific instances does absolutely nothing to get your problems solved. If you have a problem, get it petitioned as soon as possible, get an answer from a CCP Employee, if you still feel unsatisfied then escalate your petition. Following the rules actually works, not following them creates a huge mess, doesn't get problems solved, makes everyone's job harder, and worst of all hurts the player community.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls
Anslo
Scope Works
#748 - 2012-10-30 15:44:17 UTC
Twoso wrote:
I am really tired of this sort of thing from Devs/ISD. Stop power tripping. Stop giving commands. Stop being like this. You guys spend more time moderating than solving basic game problems. You want to power trip? Go do something about the clusterfuck you've created with the war dec system.


Power tripping? Dev's ARE the game. That's not a power trip. That's their JOB. Stop treating Dev's like scum. Stop whining. Stop being disrespectful. You guys spend more time whining about moderating than even playing the game. Do you pay $15 a month to whine on a forum? Go learn to post respectfully before posting inflammatory remarks at the people who make the game.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
CCP Falcon
#749 - 2012-10-30 15:52:36 UTC
Twoso wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:
Now. Stop twisting our words. Stop ignoring our instructions. Please direct all further discussions on our moderation methods to the thread I linked. I will delete all posts discussing that topic from this and all other threads as well.


I am really tired of this sort of thing from Devs/ISD. Stop power tripping. Stop giving commands. Stop being like this. You guys spend more time moderating than solving basic game problems. You want to power trip? Go do something about the clusterfuck you've created with the war dec system.


CCP developers have their own specific departments to work in within the company.

Community Developers do not deal with game mechanics, we're here to work with and alongside the Community. Asking us to fix game mechanics is like asking a car mechanic to style your hair, or an airline pilot to cook you a 7 course meal.

We have our specific roles within the company.

I'm going to stress what CCP Dolan has said here. We value positive criticism to our moderation techniques, but it must be done through the proper channels, so that we can address it correctly.

For specific issues with ISD or Developers then file a petition under the correct category and we'll look into it.

For more general comments and queries we have a specific thread set up on the General Discussion forum for people to post in regarding moderation.

If you simply choose to rant on the forums about issues, then you're going to end up in breach of the Forum Rules.

This thread is also about two steps away from being locked permanently due to how badly discussion has degenerated into persecution of our volunteers by a select few individuals who fail to understand the rules and policies we have in place.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#750 - 2012-10-30 16:39:06 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:

Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering.



Quote:

If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now



Which is it comment and hope it doesn't fall under someone's definition of berate or only say nice things here and petition bad things in secret?

If you don't want words twisted be very clear to cause no confusion.



Since I have the paid pros ears now:

Implement a very strict rule set for ISD moderators if they are going to remain. They could also be moved to a lower position as a high priority reporter to lessen the load on CCP guys.

Examples:
"Trolling" is a word that could be used to define almost anything written. That should not be handled by amatures especially ones with an in-game interest in what's being discussed.

Zero tolenace for locking threads for no good reason should be the norm.

Deleting posts is not allowed only edits on obvious violations...not "trolling" but profanity, racism, etc...
CCP Falcon
#751 - 2012-10-30 16:45:08 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:

Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering.



Quote:

If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now



Which is it comment and hope it doesn't fall under someone's definition of berate or only say nice things here and petition bad things in secret?

If you don't want words twisted be very clear to cause no confusion.



Since I have the paid pros ears now:

Implement a very strict rule set for ISD moderators if they are going to remain. They could also be moved to a lower position as a high priority reporter to lessen the load on CCP guys.

Examples:
"Trolling" is a word that could be used to define almost anything written. That should not be handled by amatures especially ones with an in-game interest in what's being discussed.

Zero tolenace for locking threads for no good reason should be the norm.

Deleting posts is not allowed only edits on obvious violations...not "trolling" but profanity, racism, etc...


See my post above regarding clarification on where to post what.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3