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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Ideals and Their Limits

Author
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-10-29 03:01:32 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:


I don't know a single thing that is made by Federation and is, in fact, better. Because all these things from Federation are made by not professionals.



Apparently, you don't like Gallentean food or medical tech, and you use neither drones nor jumpdrive computers, Kim-haani. Either that or you simply prefer inferior drone response and slower jump calculation times. Just saying.

Don't get me wrong, I have said many times that I like some Caldari products. My people trade a lot with the Caldari, although we would prefer to be free of certain Caldari presences (I-RED).

But, getting back to the point, how could the Federation be an economic powerhouse and yet a producer of inferior goods? They produce and sell to everyone. That's half the reason the Tash-Murkon region exists at all.

Have you ever stopped into a Gallente embassy or immigration office? They're huge and full of huddled masses for a reason.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#22 - 2012-10-29 03:43:24 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Apparently, you don't like Gallentean food or medical tech, and you use neither drones nor jumpdrive computers, Kim-haani. Either that or you simply prefer inferior drone response and slower jump calculation times. Just saying.


Sir, I will match our pattern recognition and prediction algorithms to any you choose, any day of the week. We do quality work, equivalent or better to anything in the Cluster.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-10-29 04:16:14 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Apparently, you don't like Gallentean food or medical tech, and you use neither drones nor jumpdrive computers, Kim-haani. Either that or you simply prefer inferior drone response and slower jump calculation times. Just saying.


Sir, I will match our pattern recognition and prediction algorithms to any you choose, any day of the week. We do quality work, equivalent or better to anything in the Cluster.


Oh, no doubt, Caldari software is top of the line. You guys have fantastic attention to detail, and program in painfully low-level languages. I'm talking about CreoDron and the big Chemal Tech Dx-I series wetware mainframes that everyone and their mother pop into Jump Freighters. You know you love 'em!



Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-10-29 05:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
With all due respect, Gesakaarin-haani, if you are referring to suicide and surprise attacks on civilian patrol ships, unarmed academies, offworld training sites and system border outposts, I think most non-Caldari would call that terrorism. Those are places populated by unarmed civilians or police.


Yes, I'm relatively certain the cities of the Homeworld were also full of unarmed civilians, women and children when the Federal fleet engaged in indiscriminate orbital bombardment of those who had no means to defend themselves. The Federation responded to the terrorism of Nouvelle Rouvenor which was carried out by a small group of extremists with a premeditated act of government sanctioned collective punishment, violence and yes, terrorism that was just as barbaric if not more so than that which occurred at Nouvelle Rouvenor.

Any claims to moral legitimacy or a war conducted with dignity, honor or humanity became an impossibility with a Federation that decided neither morality, dignity, honor or humanity were fit for the Caldari people as Senators and President Duvailer reveled in the starvation, destruction and suffering of the innocent as Caldari Prime burned. It was on that day, when all the lies of the Federation became apparent in the death and misery Duvailer had unleashed that the Federation gave the Caldari no other option but to embark on a path of vengeance against those who dared to think we were weak, broken and humiliated at their hands.

Do not balk then, or seek to hide behind the skirts of Mother Justice when Caldari sought to thus collect on the debts in death the Federation had chosen to make, by ensuring payment was made in the blood of Gallente citizens.

There is nothing worse than outstanding debts after all.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#25 - 2012-10-29 15:15:39 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Oh, no doubt, Caldari software is top of the line. You guys have fantastic attention to detail, and program in painfully low-level languages. I'm talking about CreoDron and the big Chemal Tech Dx-I series wetware mainframes that everyone and their mother pop into Jump Freighters. You know you love 'em!


I am frankly terrified of them, sir. Undefined processes crawl from every juncture of the development path unless you use low-level, exacting languages. It is much slower to develop, certainly, but you know what's going to come out at the end. The only CreoDron products I have anywhere near my lab are torn down to their boards and in an isolated server with no hardwired peripherals or wireless gateway. They're simply unsafe, sir.
von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-10-29 16:28:53 UTC
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.

von Khan

Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-10-29 19:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Gussarde en Welle
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
With all due respect, Gesakaarin-haani, if you are referring to suicide and surprise attacks on civilian patrol ships, unarmed academies, offworld training sites and system border outposts, I think most non-Caldari would call that terrorism. Those are places populated by unarmed civilians or police.


Yes, I'm relatively certain the cities of the Homeworld were also full of unarmed civilians, women and children when the Federal fleet engaged in indiscriminate orbital bombardment of those who had no means to defend themselves. The Federation responded to the terrorism of Nouvelle Rouvenor which was carried out by a small group of extremists with a premeditated act of government sanctioned collective punishment, violence and yes, terrorism that was just as barbaric if not more so than that which occurred at Nouvelle Rouvenor.

Any claims to moral legitimacy or a war conducted with dignity, honor or humanity became an impossibility with a Federation that decided neither morality, dignity, honor or humanity were fit for the Caldari people as Senators and President Duvailer reveled in the starvation, destruction and suffering of the innocent as Caldari Prime burned. It was on that day, when all the lies of the Federation became apparent in the death and misery Duvailer had unleashed that the Federation gave the Caldari no other option but to embark on a path of vengeance against those who dared to think we were weak, broken and humiliated at their hands.

Do not balk then, or seek to hide behind the skirts of Mother Justice when Caldari sought to thus collect on the debts in death the Federation had chosen to make, by ensuring payment was made in the blood of Gallente citizens.

There is nothing worse than outstanding debts after all.


I am not proud of the actions of the FDU that day and I acknowledge that millions of Caldari innocents died in indiscriminate particle cannon bombardment. To my knowledge, few of my people (Intaki) were involved in the action and none in the decision making behind it. It doesn't help that there is a prevalent culture among the Caldari of placing military installations in or near cities, but that's beside the point. I'm not going to defend the Federal parliament on that action, nor am I happy that it was celebrated widely as a national victory on Gallente prime or that it was later used as a political football for the Statist party against the Democratic-Federalists on a number of colony worlds.

With respect to the outstanding debts you mention, we Intaki have a few sayings in Ida:

"An eye for an eye makes everyone blind" - Pragnattha'paramita 122:24

"The tree of revenge bears no fruit" - Pragnattha'paramita 410:43

"Clinging to anger is like squeezing a hot coal meant to be thrown at another" - Vayam'ha Suthra 101:14

I doubt anything I say here will quell your "righteous anger," but it has given me solace from time to time.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-10-29 19:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gussarde en Welle
Scherezad wrote:
Undefined processes crawl from every juncture of the development path unless you use low-level, exacting languages.


Ugh It's true. If I only had an ISK for every time a Chemal Tech support geek told me that random processes were a crucial feature in wetware, not a bug...

Fuzzy exception handling libraries like Logos and Zymat are supposed to be the panacea that solves all those problems. Just include the library in your header, stick a decorator in the heuristic algorithms wherever you use a call to the quantum kernel, use a JIT compiler and you're good. Maybe...right?

I guess it doesn't help that the same company that makes the hardware supports the most effective libraries....

It's an argument in favor of the loud Caldari claims about Federation corruption. Straight
Vaun Erryk
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#29 - 2012-10-29 21:04:08 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
With respect to the outstanding debts you mention, we Intaki have a few sayings in Ida:

"An eye for an eye makes everyone blind" - Pragnattha'paramita 122:24

"The tree of revenge bears no fruit" - Pragnattha'paramita 410:43

"Clinging to anger is like squeezing a hot coal meant to be thrown at another" - Vayam'ha Suthra 101:14


Hello there.

I cannot doubt the validity of your quotations in a general sense. However, I would question your application in this particular context. It seems to me that you wish to invoke them to avoid Federal culpability: that is, if we continue the metaphor, to welch on the debt.

Unfortunately, that is the sum total of what I have to offer, here; enjoy your debate.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-10-29 21:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gussarde en Welle
Vaun Erryk wrote:
It seems to me that you wish to invoke them to avoid Federal culpability: that is, if we continue the metaphor, to welch on the debt.


Two wrongs do not make a right. They make more hurt people.

It just amazes me that so many Caldari cannot see outside this box. It is very much a gang-like mentality. Shoot my soldier, I'll shoot your sister's kid. You killed my brother ten years ago, you owe me X lives of my choice. Surprising how so many Caldari from all walks of life absolutely loathe what they call "oppression" by Gallente and then gladly join hands with the Amarr. You'd think the Caldari and Matari would have formed a firm alliance by now, based on all this desire for vengance against "oppressors".

As I said to Gesakaarin-haani on another thread; attempt to collect on your debts as you will - and you will, I'm sure - but remember to skip the involvement of millions of innocent civilians, many of whose peoples were uninvolved in the secession war. Attacking a local system police installation is not equivalent to attacking FDU. Hostile takeover of Intaki space is not equivalent to striking at the political institutions on Villore that so many Caldari hate. It's just oppression of otherwise neutral peoples.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2012-10-29 22:25:28 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Undefined processes crawl from every juncture of the development path unless you use low-level, exacting languages.


Ugh It's true. If I only had an ISK for every time a Chemal Tech support geek told me that random processes were a crucial feature in wetware, not a bug...

Fuzzy exception handling libraries like Logos and Zymat are supposed to be the panacea that solves all those problems. Just include the library in your header, stick a decorator in the heuristic algorithms wherever you use a call to the quantum kernel, use a JIT compiler and you're good. Maybe...right?

I guess it doesn't help that the same company that makes the hardware supports the most effective libraries....

It's an argument in favor of the loud Caldari claims about Federation corruption. Straight


Oh, Maker. I can't begin to describe the raw terror I feel every time I hook up my comparison engine to my HobGob frame and hit run. I will certainly grant that CreoDron nNet v11.4 shaves a good 5-6% off of the recognition time, but to rely on the PRED table like that... what if the network it was trained on isn't properly bijective to the sensor map? You might as well call it an Alvus map and be done with it.

I pray that you and your people will come to sanity on this point. Politics aside, this is incredibly dangerous for everyone. Perhaps at the very least we can be glad that we agree on the threat it represents.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#32 - 2012-10-29 22:31:04 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Vaun Erryk wrote:
It seems to me that you wish to invoke them to avoid Federal culpability: that is, if we continue the metaphor, to welch on the debt.


Two wrongs do not make a right. They make more hurt people.

It just amazes me that so many Caldari cannot see outside this box. It is very much a gang-like mentality. Shoot my soldier, I'll shoot your sister's kid. You killed my brother ten years ago, you owe me X lives of my choice. Surprising how so many Caldari from all walks of life absolutely loathe what they call "oppression" by Gallente and then gladly join hands with the Amarr. You'd think the Caldari and Matari would have formed a firm alliance by now, based on all this desire for vengance against "oppressors".

As I said to Gesakaarin-haani on another thread; attempt to collect on your debts as you will - and you will, I'm sure - but remember to skip the involvement of millions of innocent civilians, many of whose peoples were uninvolved in the secession war. Attacking a local system police installation is not equivalent to attacking FDU. Hostile takeover of Intaki space is not equivalent to striking at the political institutions on Villore that so many Caldari hate. It's just oppression of otherwise neutral peoples.


You are right in your first statement, and I would very much like to make more comment on this. I will save it for another time, however, as it deserves more attention than I can give it at the moment. Perhaps later today.

Please, however, don't point your finger at us alone. If you want to be fair, we are all guilty of this, as nations. To find a lasting solution you must be able to set yourself aside from it. This is at the core of effective negotiation.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-10-30 01:04:58 UTC
Scherezad wrote:

I pray that you and your people will come to sanity on this point. Politics aside, this is incredibly dangerous for everyone. Perhaps at the very least we can be glad that we agree on the threat it represents.


I know that I should let this conversation die out of courtesy to the thread...but...
Well..I have been to several dinnertable discussions with computer science and AI professors at Palita University on Intaki (my first degree was in applied physics and astronautics) and the word among that crowd is that no human has ever written a single line of code for either the CreoDron nNet targeting/recognition module or the qRASP autologic OS since v 9.1. How long has it been since v 9.1? 5 years?
I don't know if CreoDron confirms or denies this.

I had a drone last week that was putting in requests to my private email for weapons upgrades. Folks in the Federation tend to find these things charming and then we wipe the page file and restart the uplink router.

So yeah. I was happier not thinking about this, to be honest.




Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#34 - 2012-10-30 01:49:09 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
I know that I should let this conversation die out of courtesy to the thread...but...
Well..I have been to several dinnertable discussions with computer science and AI professors at Palita University on Intaki (my first degree was in applied physics and astronautics) and the word among that crowd is that no human has ever written a single line of code for either the CreoDron nNet targeting/recognition module or the qRASP autologic OS since v 9.1. How long has it been since v 9.1? 5 years?
I don't know if CreoDron confirms or denies this.

I had a drone last week that was putting in requests to my private email for weapons upgrades. Folks in the Federation tend to find these things charming and then we wipe the page file and restart the uplink router.

So yeah. I was happier not thinking about this, to be honest.


Palita has a lovely and intelligent staff of their CSIS department, and while we are discouraged from communicating there are naturally some means of doing so. They are pleasant individuals one and all.

It does baffle me, though, how their staff can be so very sensible and how their students can go on to perform the utter foolishness of CreoDron's core decision network. Do they require long term business strategy courses for the degree?

I'm sorry, you're absolutely right - let's leave this conversation for elsewhere. Please feel free to mail me if you want to continue.
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#35 - 2012-10-30 06:39:47 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I have said many times that I like some Caldari products. My people trade a lot with the Caldari, although I would prefer to be free of certain Caldari presences (I-RED).


Fixed for you, please continue.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-10-30 06:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Gussarde en Welle
John Revenent wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I have said many times that I like some Caldari products. My people trade a lot with the Caldari, although I would prefer to be free of certain Caldari presences (I-RED).


Fixed for you, please continue.


Capt. Revenent, you and your organization continue to astound me with your ability to seemingly be everywhere at once.
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#37 - 2012-10-30 07:15:32 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
John Revenent wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I have said many times that I like some Caldari products. My people trade a lot with the Caldari, although I would prefer to be free of certain Caldari presences (I-RED).


Fixed for you, please continue.


Capt. Revenent, you and your organization continue to astound me with your ability to seemingly be everywhere at once.


I will take that as a compliment, thank you.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-10-30 11:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Gussarde en Welle wrote:

It just amazes me that so many Caldari cannot see outside this box. It is very much a gang-like mentality. Shoot my soldier, I'll shoot your sister's kid. You killed my brother ten years ago, you owe me X lives of my choice. Surprising how so many Caldari from all walks of life absolutely loathe what they call "oppression" by Gallente and then gladly join hands with the Amarr. You'd think the Caldari and Matari would have formed a firm alliance by now, based on all this desire for vengance against "oppressors".

As I said to Gesakaarin-haani on another thread; attempt to collect on your debts as you will - and you will, I'm sure - but remember to skip the involvement of millions of innocent civilians, many of whose peoples were uninvolved in the secession war. Attacking a local system police installation is not equivalent to attacking FDU. Hostile takeover of Intaki space is not equivalent to striking at the political institutions on Villore that so many Caldari hate. It's just oppression of otherwise neutral peoples.


I am often equally surprised that for all its professions of being the guardians of freedom and liberty the Federation has a proven track record in denying the fundamental right of democracy which is self-determination, the notion that a people should be free to dictate their own destinies as they see fit, on the grounds of separate culture and nationality. The underlying hypocrisy and lie of the Federation is that it presents itself as a colonial political entity that is premised on consensus and democracy, yet any that would seek their own freedoms away from a government they have decided is corrupt and no longer represents their interests find themselves quickly branded as criminals, traitors and terrorists to be persecuted with violence.

Just as with the Caldari, so it is with the Intaki and all those periphery colonies who languish in an economic system whereby the Federation feeds the rich and wealthy of its core worlds who hold the most power, and being prosperous and populous thus the most votes. This, while the concerns and rights of colonial worlds on the Federal periphery find their concerns unheeded while finding little opportunity as they remain in poverty and ghettos.

Recognizing this fact, why would the State hold such people culpable for the crimes of the Federation? The hand of brotherhood and friendship should be extended to them and opportunity for mutual advantage created so that they may find the pride of realizing their own dreams and destinies - for the State was built on the promise of Caldari self-determination and it is a promise that should be given to all those that wish for it.

It stems from a deep sense of respect both of our own culture and that of others that I would say differentiates Caldari philosophy from Gallente. The difference between Caldari dialectics and Gallentean debate. Caldari prefer to approach the world through an appreciation of different perspectives and build constructively through discussion and dialogue whereas the Gallente, as is evident from this communique, prefer to hold that their own views are correct and that everyone else is wrong (A method, I would say that leads only to the peculiar idiocy that is Federal democratic politics where a lot is said, but nothing gets done because there can never be compromise).

That would also lead to the Imperial-State alliance. Yes, aspects of Imperial society and politics are fundamentally at odds with Caldari society and politics, it does not mean that the State should seek to change what it disagrees with for in the end Amarr culture is their own and that should be respected. It is nothing more than the sharing of certain political interests, and as they say after all, there never exists anything as a permanent alliance only permanent interests.

An amusing point though, the Federation did sign the FTA with the Empire at Giran-Fa so am I to take it the Federation remains glad to benefit economically from the Empire yet at the same time harangue slavery to keep the Minmatar on side? It would seem quite at odds, trading openly with an Empire that seems so much opposed to supposed Federal ideals.

Care to defend that hypocrisy?

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#39 - 2012-10-30 11:37:19 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Self-scrutiny is inherent to a democracy, of course. Here, you're talking about thin veils. One can easily be nationalistic about the fact a democracy must be self-aware to progress. Again, that draws people to the Gallentean ideal, to conquer and expand ultimately.


--so utterly, blatantly, missing that even more comical.

If not though, then the chorus-of-approval from him and others like him for something this...shamelessly un-critical and profoundly blinkered...Is just very, very sad.


I've noticed many capsuleers are incredibly poor at the concept of subtext and inference. The subtext in this instance is that a democracy must market themselves as self-scrutinizing, for two reasons. One, it lives up to the ideological principle of a democracy, and two, it conquers. Just like how Amarrian slavery or Caldari corporatism conquers. The Federation conquers (an inherently bad thing if you like) using niceties such as standing up for its principles (an inherently good thing, if you like). That is the paradox of the Federation's expansion.

What many capsuleer also fail to realize is that support of a democracy is not a linear matter. If you're from the Amarr Empire or Caldari State, you're expected to have linear support. Either you support the system, or you don't (and face the consequences). In the Federation, I can support what it stands for and continue to work for that ideal, while at the same time disapprove of large elements of it. In fact, I could disapprove of 90% of the Federation, but find 10% agreeable and worth fighting for. Capsuleers are given the freedom to do this with their other home empires, true, but that's only because they're a capsuleer.

Granted, there are the Black Eagles to think about, but a highly-trained and -equipped counter-espionage special forces group has much better things to do than detain the billions of Gallenteans who say naughty things over GalNet. They're pragmatic enough to know that the vast majority of the Federation is built around empty can-rattling.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-10-30 12:03:00 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:

I've noticed many capsuleers are incredibly poor at the concept of subtext and inference. The subtext in this instance is that a democracy must market themselves as self-scrutinizing, for two reasons. One, it lives up to the ideological principle of a democracy, and two, it conquers. Just like how Amarrian slavery or Caldari corporatism conquers. The Federation conquers (an inherently bad thing if you like) using niceties such as standing up for its principles (an inherently good thing, if you like). That is the paradox of the Federation's expansion.


There is no paradox in a nation that practices democracy at home and imperialism abroad. I would say it is an inevitability for democracy and franchise generally comes about from mercantalism and the middle-class who seek to acquire power from previous power structures such as feudalism or despotism (Such as with Caille). As such, it leads only to a process whereby economic interests and the acquisition of wealth in addition to protecting such interests and wealth becomes the primary occupation of citizens and leaders.

The Federation, as an heir to that legacy is a nation which may have democracy but whose only ideals and principles are economic dominion, colonialism and the preservation of its own interests - that primarily being dictated by its elites who hold wealth and power. That is not to say the majority can be content with their ability to vote once in awhile for party candidates who have their own interests and find happiness in having the freedom to lead empty and mediocre lives with the diversions the Federation offers.

There is nothing wrong with self-scrutiny though. The Caldari Providence Directorate seeks to conduct much the same in the State, but then I suppose the Caldari citizen currently is able to promote change in the State through majority consensus which the average Federal citizen has always seemed unable to emulate.

Kurilaivonen|Concern