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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5541 - 2012-10-28 22:52:15 UTC
Actually, the easiest adjustment for Projectiles is simply to bring the falloff bonus of TEs in line with TCs.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5542 - 2012-10-28 23:05:50 UTC
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
serras bang wrote:
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:

Also, try killing a frig with any other medium range weapon system at under 30Km AT ALL.


i dont use guns all that much and the smallest med guns even upto mid mid guns far as im aware do it fairly effectively.
however im fairly confident that all med guns can lay full dmg on all criuser and bc ?


Because, Blasters and ACs are Medium Ranged Weapon Systems?
(I'd consider an argument on Zealots with HPLs and Scorch).

But for clarifiction, I'm talking about Beam Lazors, Rail Guns and Artillery cannons. Which are (along with HMLs) the medium Mid-Range weapon systems. All of which are truly awful at tracking unwebbed frigates below about 30km (YMMV a little).

Yup, and the conversation was re: Precision ammo. Which makes firing it at BCs and CCs irrelevent (because doing that would be - except for a few edge cases - a mistake).

serras bang wrote:
should be common seans that if a target is 50k away from you flying at over 1k ms if you have a max flight time of 44 if you start fireing its gonna hit him by time the missle feul has been used up as i said should be common seanse.


My whole long explanation was to point at that ATM it's also wrong.

Whereas, in future it will be closer to being true.



but there is a point all med guns can lay full dmg on criusers fury heavy no longer can under the proposed changes. so again i make the point of missles being heavily over nerfed yeah ok maybe they needed a range nerf fine i can agree to it but at least replace it with a better system than it did as ive already posted before.


Fury and rage being more dmg and less range but not 50% of t1

presiction and jav being longer range but much lower dmg.

i.e this would give larger dmg for a shorter range on fury hml case criuser and above and allow for long range strike with lower dmg in case of prescion hml this would also act more like guns if that is the case.

T1 mid range and dmg
T2 Fury and rage high dmg shorter range bad dmg aplication on smaller targets
T2 precision and jave longer range ammo for less dmg but better dmg aplication smaller targets.

however the difference between long and short ranges should always be definitive jave hams should not be infringing on the fury ham range as much as it is. Or more importantly on the hml presicion ammo as much as it is as it stands now hml presicion is no good as javs have pirrty much same or better range and better dmg aplication with more dps.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5543 - 2012-10-28 23:59:15 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
...
I think projectiles (omg a weapon system I use, what am I doing) need some adjustment. About the only thing I can find some common ground with you on. But I'm not stupid like you so I'm not calling for some accross the board nerf to them.


OFC you don't want your primary weapons system nerfed. See we have more common ground then you think.

Lili Lu wrote:

Instead I would like to see a little more optimal on beam lasers....
TC can stay as they are....
They should have differing range bonus as shield tanks are going to have more agility and speed than armor tanks. This will bring ACs back in line. It will also aid amarr armor tanking and even out the mobility advantage v range between those types of ships.


So your fix for Projectiles is buffing other systems? right Lili Lu I would like to introduce you to powercreep

Lili Lu wrote:

It's already been pointed out to you how the Cane nerf while harsh and possibly overdone......

Right as we have pointed out why the HML was harsh and overdone

Lili Lu wrote:

Seriously, how these types of psychologically disordered people seem to gravitate into piloting Caldari and only Caldari ships is a mystery. What?

Right I would like to repost this from my last thread.

Few more points to make saying things along the lines of

You should have cross trained.
Any personal attacks that are sure to be targeted at me. (sure did call that one)
Pointing out grammatical errors
Posting by EFT warriors.
Or simply anyone who has not been on the test servers.

Will be taken at face value only.
Also for the sake of argument this is intended to compare Missiles / Projectiles for this time I really do not care about laser or Hybrids as I pretty much even use in the top 20 your beef should be with projectiles not missiles.
Also reader be wary of people posting in defense of laser or hybrids when they are projectile users

I wasn't going to give you the time of day but you are that good of a troll I had to respond to this.
Again you have added nothing of value to this thread you just continually barrage the Caldai pilots with insults and flame threads in an attempt to discredit them.

These are typical debate tactics when you really have no valid argument so you resort to what we call ad hominem
and other tactics you attempt to use we like to call a red herring.
Just to be clear ad hominem is when you attack an individual instead of the argument and you have proven to do this time and time again post after post.

red herring on the other hand is an attempt to introduce something non related to the topic.
I made it clear my intent was to compare missile to projectiles when considering balance,
yet you attempt to bring lasers and TC into the argument.

and you say my post are ridiculous I suggest you reread your own lol.


I have to say many things Cazador writes are pretty much to the point. Its basically the same what I experienced here :)
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5544 - 2012-10-29 00:10:31 UTC
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
Actually, the easiest adjustment for Projectiles is simply to bring the falloff bonus of TEs in line with TCs.


Would help, although the speed of Winmatar ships is also a strong part of this.

The easiest adjustment to balance HML would by the way to make Raven and Cruises work in PvP. Cruise Ravens could then slaughter HML Drakes (which would be only fair) and still not kill all others, since they are BS size.

Another idea would be to go for different range ammo, at least 3 different ... high dps short range, med range med dps, long range low dps. But I fear we wont see this coming :)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5545 - 2012-10-29 00:34:00 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Yeah I get that current HMs eclipse other medium LR weapons which is why they're used more, but it's not just HMs, Drakes having BS sized tank and good resists for logi, 100mn AB tengus...

I'm just not convinced that nerfing HMs will give other medium LR weapons a new lease on life, I feel it's more likely that the entire medium LR weapon group will remain crappy ...

We have to let the metagame settle from these changes first before we know anything for certain, but in my opinion nothing much is going to change, HMs will still see similar use but slightly less than now, and all the other medium LR turrets will remain in a similar position.


i agree with most of what was said here. medium LR turrets will still be out performed by HML's. however, the drake and tengu will be addressed during ship balancing later in the coming expansions. its just something we have to wait for.



Dato Koppla wrote:


Many Caldari missile boats get a kinetic damage bonus and are thus pigeon holed into kinetic despite fully selectable damage. So no, projectiles get the 'best' range of selectable damage as they don't have this.


this kinetic pigeon holing is being removed (except the new destroyer it seems) and missiles get full selectable T2 missiles, projectiles dont. missiles are definitely more selectable considering projectiles have to chose T1 ammo's to do thermal or EM damage (which also means a damage reduction)

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5546 - 2012-10-29 00:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
serras bang wrote:

but there is a point all med guns can lay full dmg on criusers fury heavy no longer can under the proposed changes. so again i make the point of missles being heavily over nerfed yeah ok maybe they needed a range nerf fine i can agree to it but at least replace it with a better system than it did as ive already posted before.


Fury and rage being more dmg and less range but not 50% of t1

presiction and jav being longer range but much lower dmg.

i.e this would give larger dmg for a shorter range on fury hml case criuser and above and allow for long range strike with lower dmg in case of prescion hml this would also act more like guns if that is the case.

T1 mid range and dmg
T2 Fury and rage high dmg shorter range bad dmg aplication on smaller targets
T2 precision and jave longer range ammo for less dmg but better dmg aplication smaller targets.

however the difference between long and short ranges should always be definitive jave hams should not be infringing on the fury ham range as much as it is. Or more importantly on the hml presicion ammo as much as it is as it stands now hml presicion is no good as javs have pirrty much same or better range and better dmg aplication with more dps.

Fury will apply full damage on shield cruisers and any BC/BS ; speed damage reduction should be rather low, though I need to make the math to be sure.

And compared to turrets, long range ammo of short range turrets usualy outrange long range turret with T2 short range ammo.

@Cazador : in France, we would say what translate to "the hospital scoff at charity". Ad Hominem is all you did to me some pages ago. Hell, you even suspected the devs to want to nerf the caldari just for the sake of it ! And you never brought any argument, only unjustified fears and your pve CNR not in line with machariels in incursions.

Oh, and this statistical comparison, which is not an argument (no statistic could make an argument, only an indication of a potential problem) ; and then, people yet agree with you that projectiles do have a problem, but that is corrected by minmatar hull tweak, or that TE are the main projectile source of power against the other weapons (because power of a weapon exists only in relation to other weapons) because of the emphasys on falloff projectile greatly profit from.

And no, a fix to TE would not buff the others, the "buff" would only be relative : this is balance. When you nerf something, everything else is indirectly buffed, that's the magic, and that's not powercreep.

And finaly, all is in your phrase : medLR turrets CAN lay full damage on cruisers ; T2 HML ammo CAN too ; but neither of these systems is able to do it in standard situation (cruiser will try to fool your tracking at close range, and with missiles, you need a web/TP or the good target).

And finaly, to ALL caldari pilots around there, I beg you all : STOP SAYING CALDARI ONLY HAVE TWO VIABLE SHIPS FOR PVP ! That is a lie, or a fantasy, nothing more, that have been said countless of times. And if you only consider caldari missile ships, that's a falacy, because the caracal is rebalanced and will be a beast, and because the cerberus is known to be broken (there are others broken hull in fact).

But anyway, even if there was only one viable hull for HML, that wouldn't be a reason not to nerf them if they are OP (and they are).
Lili Lu
#5547 - 2012-10-29 00:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Cazador 64 wrote:
OFC you don't want your primary weapons system nerfed. See we have more common ground then you think.

I don't consider any weapon system my "primary weapon." So I really don't care, which is what I was saying. Why do you call any weapon system your primary weapon system. Grow a little.

Cazador 64 wrote:
So your fix for Projectiles is buffing other systems? right Lili Lu I would like to introduce you to powercreep

Reading comprehension not your strong point. The only "buff" I gave as an example was a small extension on laser optimal so that they have some advantage over projectiles. Medium arty has same optimal as medium beams but has more falloff. To extend laser optimal a little would give them some more comparative utility. It hardly buffs them in that no more damage is suggested. Besides since you seem to think my "primary weapon system" is projectiles why would I ever suggest this? What really needs to be done to "nerf" projectiles is a small nerf on TEs.

Cazador 64 wrote:
Right as we have pointed out why the HML was harsh and overdone

You didn't lose the ability to fit a tank and long range weapons. In nerfing cane grid to exclude 425s and 2 medium neuts, the cane also lost any reasonable ability to fit 720s, a mwd, and 1600 plate (or LSEs). And a cane with LSEs has always been a paper tank anyway, nothing like a Drake. Conversely the Drake can still fit it's tank and HMLs. It didn't get any direct nerf. You lost range which was necessary and 10% damage and your high damage tech II ammo no longer is going 90% of you tech I ammo range. You are all crying like spoiled children. Cane pilots haven't polluted this thread with anywhere near the whine.

Cazador 64 wrote:
Right I would like to repost this from my last thread.

Few more points to make saying things along the lines of

You should have cross trained.
Any personal attacks that are sure to be targeted at me. (sure did call that one)
Pointing out grammatical errors
Posting by EFT warriors.
Or simply anyone who has not been on the test servers.

Will be taken at face value only.
Also for the sake of argument this is intended to compare Missiles / Projectiles for this time I really do not care about laser or Hybrids as I pretty much even use in the top 20 your beef should be with projectiles not missiles.
Also reader be wary of people posting in defense of laser or hybrids when they are projectile users

I wasn't going to give you the time of day but you are that good of a troll I had to respond to this.
Again you have added nothing of value to this thread you just continually barrage the Caldai pilots with insults and flame threads in an attempt to discredit them.

These are typical debate tactics when you really have no valid argument so you resort to what we call ad hominem
and other tactics you attempt to use we like to call a red herring.
Just to be clear ad hominem is when you attack an individual instead of the argument and you have proven to do this time and time again post after post.

red herring on the other hand is an attempt to introduce something non related to the topic.
I made it clear my intent was to compare missile to projectiles when considering balance,
yet you attempt to bring lasers and TC into the argument.

and you say my post are ridiculous I suggest you reread your own lol.

I've already crosstrained years ago skippy, and may have more sp in missiles than you do.

When you talk in terms of "biggotry", when Opertone says "I am Caldari", and all the other ridiculous identification of yourselves with a mythical race in a game, sorry, you open yourselves up to what I have written itt.

I don't give a crap about gramatical errors. Find a place where I made any deal out of a grammatical or spelling error.

I've flown and fit up about every ship in this game between Lili (amarr and minmatar, but also have trained gallente and finishing caldari cruiser 5 as we speak) and my other characters, two of which specialize in gallente and caldari. EFT has been used by both sides in this thread to provide numbers behind opinions. You can't seriously have a problem with eft, and you can label the pro nerf side as eft warriors if you want but it just makes you a hypocrite.

I have been on the test server in the past. But within the last 5 months i started experiencing eve and other problems on my desktop where i had the test server loaded. It took months and lots of pita remedies til i got eve running again there. I am reluctant to mess with what is working on that puter now for fear of experiencing computer problems again. I may try loading a test server client on my lappy. Will have to think about it though. Regardless, this nerf to HMs makes sense. You can't keep an op weapon system in the game. Cry about it.

Troll, omg, learn what that means you idiot. A troll is not simply someone who disagrees with you. Call me an idiot or whatever else you want, but ffs you only prove my calling you an idiot by calling me a troll. On second thought keep going on with calling me a troll. It keeps showing you don't know much.Blink

I'm sure you will keep whining in the vain hope that getting this thread to 300 pages will somehow make Fozzie cave and leave HMs as they currently are. Btw, did you even read Fozzie's posts. He is a dev who has flown HM boats. He specifically stated they were his first set of ships used in eve. And you obviously are too butthurt to even notice that I have trained HM spec 4 and have used them on 3 characters. My characters also have gunnery specs at 4 though. So I know about both weapon systems. You clearly only know missiles. Doesn't say much for the strength of your opinions.

edit - and what happened to blocking me so you would/could not read anymore of my posts? Lol
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5548 - 2012-10-29 06:40:29 UTC
serras bang wrote:
rage and fury is hi dmg but yet cannot lay full dmg on stationary ships of there size.

presicion and jav for small fast targets yet the presicion dosent have the range to gaurantee a hit on said ships.


Why should it have more range?

None of the T2 long range ammo for turrets have good tracking. In fact there's tracking penalty in every T2 long range ammo.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5549 - 2012-10-29 07:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
serras bang wrote:
rage and fury is hi dmg but yet cannot lay full dmg on stationary ships of there size.

presicion and jav for small fast targets yet the presicion dosent have the range to gaurantee a hit on said ships.


Why should it have more range?

None of the T2 long range ammo for turrets have good tracking. In fact there's tracking penalty in every T2 long range ammo.


I imagine because it has to fly to its target and flying to a 'ceptor orbiting at silly-km/s is going to require to flying for a decent duration, even it its only going ~20km out as the crow flies.

Unless I misread it/have outdated information there's a good chance you'll be better off using HAMS with range rigs in almost all circumstances Smile More damage, better able to hit small targets. Less range but bleh, not much less than precision HM. HAM drake has been turned into a (bigger) demon. Hell rage HAMs will even hit cruisers better than vanilla HMLs Twisted
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5550 - 2012-10-29 09:02:26 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I imagine because it has to fly to its target and flying to a 'ceptor orbiting at silly-km/s is going to require to flying for a decent duration, even it its only going ~20km out as the crow flies.

Unless I misread it/have outdated information there's a good chance you'll be better off using HAMS with range rigs in almost all circumstances Smile More damage, better able to hit small targets. Less range but bleh, not much less than precision HM. HAM drake has been turned into a (bigger) demon. Hell rage HAMs will even hit cruisers better than vanilla HMLs Twisted


Or you could use range rigs for heavy missiles too. Roll
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5551 - 2012-10-29 09:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I imagine because it has to fly to its target and flying to a 'ceptor orbiting at silly-km/s is going to require to flying for a decent duration, even it its only going ~20km out as the crow flies.

Unless I misread it/have outdated information there's a good chance you'll be better off using HAMS with range rigs in almost all circumstances Smile More damage, better able to hit small targets. Less range but bleh, not much less than precision HM. HAM drake has been turned into a (bigger) demon. Hell rage HAMs will even hit cruisers better than vanilla HMLs Twisted


Or you could use range rigs for heavy missiles too. Roll


Of course, but with the sig changes you're really going to have to use [some] rigors instead.

Also you seem to have mistaken my post for a complaint as opposed to an observation about why an argument can be made about precision having greater flight time Blink
Sigras
Conglomo
#5552 - 2012-10-29 09:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Cazador 64 wrote:
How can you people can not wrap your head around the fact HML was the only viable option for Caldari Missile pvp.
We have posted the numbers of the top 20 most used weapons Projectiles dominate this list over every other weapons system out there. As well as projectile ships make up almost half of the top 20 ships we see on this list.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=invtype&id=12034

how can you not wrap your head around the fact that the fact that battleship missiles suck is not a justification for HMLs being overpowered?

I agree, CCP needs to fix battleship missiles, but that has NOTHING to do with HMLs

also rockets work just fine ATM, dont know about standards . . .

Cazador 64 wrote:
Will be taken at face value only.
Also for the sake of argument this is intended to compare Missiles / Projectiles for this time I really do not care about laser or Hybrids as I pretty much even use in the top 20 your beef should be with projectiles not missiles.
Also reader be wary of people posting in defense of laser or hybrids when they are projectile users

Ok, instead of 4 weapon systems (hybrids, lasers, missiles, projectiles) you should be comparing two sets of 4 weapon systems separately.

#1 Blasters, Pulse Lasers, Autocannons, HAMs - here i completely agree with you, HAMs need a buff (switch the PG requirements with HMLs) and Autocannons are totally overpowered and need a serious nerf especially when compared with blasters . . . we have no problems here.

#2 Rails, Beam Lasers, Artillery, HML - out of these four weapon systems and only these four weapon systems which is the overpowered one? clearly the HML takes not only the cake, but the plate and table it was on too. Rails are still the ones in need of a buff here, and the HML needs its power reigned in.

TL;DR
I understand that the autocannon needs a nerf, but for the love of God, stop using that as justification for the HML to stay how it is, theyre not even in the same class.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5553 - 2012-10-29 09:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Opertone wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Opertone wrote:
You do not even play the FFF... game. Quit your posting. You have not played as caldari character. Your POV is so out of this world. You are not even trying.

I love how you never offered a single counter point to any of the arguments made in my post, instead you just attacked my character . . .
Let me guess, you must be running for US president this year . . . Roll

Anyway, if you can scrape together an argument perhaps try posting that, Johnny Storm


Arguments. It is just rubbish. Can't even bother to make counter arguments.

the lack of ability to come up with a cohesive argument on your part does not constitute a problem with my argument.

also, learn to quote, im sick of both fixing your quote failures, and having you misquote me.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5554 - 2012-10-29 09:38:31 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The easiest adjustment to balance HML would by the way to make Raven and Cruises work in PvP. Cruise Ravens could then slaughter HML Drakes (which would be only fair) and still not kill all others, since they are BS size.

Could you please elaborate on this cause youve said it a few times now and each time it confuses me . . . the cruise raven already does way more DPS than a 1400 tempest, a 425 megathron or a tachyon apoc at better ranges (way better for all but the apoc)

So i dont exactly know what you mean here,
the cruise raven with 3 BCS does 490 DPS or so at max range (250 km) with caldari navy missiles
the 1400 Tempest with 3 gyrostabs does 360 DPS or so at 124 + 57 km with tremor
the 425 megathron with 3 magstabs does 370 DPS or so at 130 + 30 km with spike
the Tachyon apoc with 3 heatsinks does 401 DPS or so at 230 + 41 km with aurora

do you want the raven to do even more damage or something? im not sure what more you want.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5555 - 2012-10-29 09:46:37 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The easiest adjustment to balance HML would by the way to make Raven and Cruises work in PvP. Cruise Ravens could then slaughter HML Drakes (which would be only fair) and still not kill all others, since they are BS size.

Could you please elaborate on this cause youve said it a few times now and each time it confuses me . . . the cruise raven already does way more DPS than a 1400 tempest, a 425 megathron or a tachyon apoc at better ranges (way better for all but the apoc)

So i dont exactly know what you mean here,
the cruise raven with 3 BCS does 490 DPS or so at max range (250 km) with caldari navy missiles
the 1400 Tempest with 3 gyrostabs does 360 DPS or so at 124 + 57 km with tremor
the 425 megathron with 3 magstabs does 370 DPS or so at 130 + 30 km with spike
the Tachyon apoc with 3 heatsinks does 401 DPS or so at 230 + 41 km with aurora

do you want the raven to do even more damage or something? im not sure what more you want.



Change/fix the raven so it works in TQ and not just on paper? P

I don't think there's any serious debate that the raven is a pretty damned terrible ship for ship based PvP
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5556 - 2012-10-29 09:56:44 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Change/fix the raven so it works in TQ and not just on paper? P

I don't think there's any serious debate that the raven is a pretty damned terrible ship for ship based PvP

Granted ; by the next summer, all BS will be reworked.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5557 - 2012-10-29 10:03:40 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Change/fix the raven so it works in TQ and not just on paper? P

I don't think there's any serious debate that the raven is a pretty damned terrible ship for ship based PvP

Granted ; by the next summer, all BS will be reworked.



Yup, although if only sniping was properly viable, it would be a cracking hull What?
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#5558 - 2012-10-29 10:04:53 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The easiest adjustment to balance HML would by the way to make Raven and Cruises work in PvP. Cruise Ravens could then slaughter HML Drakes (which would be only fair) and still not kill all others, since they are BS size.

Could you please elaborate on this cause youve said it a few times now and each time it confuses me . . . the cruise raven already does way more DPS than a 1400 tempest, a 425 megathron or a tachyon apoc at better ranges (way better for all but the apoc)

So i dont exactly know what you mean here,
the cruise raven with 3 BCS does 490 DPS or so at max range (250 km) with caldari navy missiles
the 1400 Tempest with 3 gyrostabs does 360 DPS or so at 124 + 57 km with tremor
the 425 megathron with 3 magstabs does 370 DPS or so at 130 + 30 km with spike
the Tachyon apoc with 3 heatsinks does 401 DPS or so at 230 + 41 km with aurora

do you want the raven to do even more damage or something? im not sure what more you want.



Change/fix the raven so it works in TQ and not just on paper? P

I don't think there's any serious debate that the raven is a pretty damned terrible ship for ship based PvP



i guess the biggest problem is the non-existence of engagements beyond 150 km (i dare to say 100 km - ignoring some rather rare sniping games) because of current minimal warp distances, ongrid probing and the big delay in damage application due to cruise missile flight times.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5559 - 2012-10-29 10:31:54 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
i guess the biggest problem is the non-existence of engagements beyond 150 km (i dare to say 100 km - ignoring some rather rare sniping games) because of current minimal warp distances, ongrid probing and the big delay in damage application due to cruise missile flight times.

There is room for 100-120km engagement IMO, and tier3 BC, with their agility, use it ; the problem here is more about the logi : you don't have the firpower at 100km to break through logi protective power.

For the flight time, I think CCP will go the road of HML : Cruise Missiles speed will rise and flight time will fall. I cannot really think to their dps being buff, or very small buff, because that would really be a high dps at longer range.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5560 - 2012-10-29 11:07:39 UTC
In my opinion the damage nerf for heavy missiles was ok, but i'm not too sure about the range reduction for the T2 missiles...
The way i see it missiles and turrets are 2 completely different systems and the way we have been going so far is to make them more and more similar.

Turrets should be able to completely rule at short range and if the long range guns have tracking problems that make them almost useless then i see a problem there that needs to be fixed.
And in exchange for that missiles should rule in the long range, but so far there is no viable way to use that trademark range of the missiles or long range turrets and i have an idea for that too.

I would like to see the Defender missiles fixed, also there should be defender missile launcher module that can be fitted to high slot without the need for launcher slot so any ship could use it.

And then i'd like warp disruption effect chance added to EVERY long range turret and missile ammunition, this would make sniper setups and long range engagements possible and finally long range turrets could be viable also.
The warp disruption effect would be chance based each time you succesfully hit and would last for few seconds, this should not completely warp disrupt the target all the time so you might get a chance to warp away, but with 2 snipers you would be screwed.
The sniped could try to either run out of snipers weapon/targeting range or rush face to face with the attacker since this does not shutdown MWD, and get under the long range guns.
Missiles should be able to warp disrupt much better since the added flight time as a warning time to the target.
Also the damage inbalance at long ranges would need fixing but missiles would be the winner there.
Warp disruption could also be countered by fitting single Warp Core Stabilizer as the disrupt strength would not exceed 1.

What do you think about this, it's very raw, but it would make missiles viable on long range role, it would also make long range guns viable and even Raven could actually become viable at pvp too.