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Substantially decrease the mineral needs of BP's?
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Doddy
Excidium.
#101 - 2012-10-26 08:09:20 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Imagine if I could undock and shoot NPC's and they dropped a rifter variant that was better than the ones people made. That's how it is for pretty much every module with a meta 4 variant.


You mean like the firetail, or do you mean the dramiel?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2012-10-26 08:58:16 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Because Tippia doesn't understand that T1 items are not in the game for the explicit purpose of building T2 items, and that the only reason T1 items are included as a part of the building material is to ensure that T2 modules DON'T compete with T1 products.
Explicitness has nothing to do with it. It's just how the game's ecology has organically developed over the years. These days, T1 items are components — the character base has grown old enough that T2 is the baseline, and the skill system has been altered to make T2 quicker to get for new players as well so even that potential customer base is quickly removed.

The only exception are a select few (non-representative) items where the balance between meta 4 and meta 5 — usually in terms of fitting space and cap draw — is such that it matches a specific niche for specialist ships that are low on those exact two stats. In even fewer cases, the meta 5 item does indeed not have anything to offer above the meta 4 (other than universal availability), so if you want to complain about those, then go ahead… but guess what, CCP are slowly changing that (most recently with armour plates).

Quote:
Tippia also seems to be under the impression that seomeone who's entire playtime consists of nothing but bulding and selling stuff, and managing almost a couple hundred market orders comprised almost entirely of things they build, valuing into the 10s of billions doesn't seem to know what they're talking about.
No. I'm under the impression that someone who offers a whole slew of modules that are being sold solely for their mineral contents as as an illustration of modules that compete with T1 sales doesn't know what they're talking about. The number of market orders you have is utterly irrelevant at that point — what matters is that you show that you haven't done your research about modules in question. The thousand LHRs sold a day are not pilots picking a meta item over T2 for their ship — it's manufacturers picking free minerals over expensive minerals. And oh my, what's that? T1 numbers correlate closely with T2 numbers? It's almost as if one is used to produce the other…

I'm under the impression that you don't know what you're talking about because you failed to spot the obvious in your own example.

Quote:
In a player driven sandbox game, the **** that players make should be the best stuff, the crap you get off mobs should be sold as value items so that you can buy the better stuff that players make.
No. In player-driven sandbox, the player should be in control of supply and demand. They are. The stuff they build should be the best stuff. it is. And the crap you get off of mods should be different enough not to compete with the player-made stuff. It is, and it doesn't, and the pricing of it is entirely player-made as well. Everything is already exactly the way you want it to be — your problem is that you have arbitrarily limited your scope to not include the entire industrial sector.

Quote:
I do not believe that CCP intends for loot drops to make the player made varaints obselete on the market
And guess what? They don't. They can't. This is is the point you keep missing. Named items cannot perform the same function as T1. When you keep harping on about how named items should not be better than manufactured items, you miss the fact that they already are — either in terms of stats (T2) or in terms of what you can do with them (T1), and always in terms of availability.

The situation you're asking for is already in the game.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-10-26 13:29:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If Meta 0 was better than Meta 1-4.
Then mission runners/Ratters/Miners killing annoying rats would get below mineral value for their loot.
Because Meta 1-4 would be utterly worthless & at that point might as well be removed from the game. No loot drops, just bounties! Just like drones are currently.

Basically you are asking for your play style to be buffed at the expense of a whole lot of other peoples play styles being nerfed.

That's why Meta 0 shouldn't be better than meta 1-4.

There's mission payout, bonus payout, and salvage. If the remaining meta1-4 items that make their meta 0 counterpart obsolete were adjusted then CCP can adjust mission and bonus payout to make up for any substantial loss in income.

It's not required for the pve guys to have some of the best loot drops in order to make isk.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-10-26 13:37:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Because Tippia doesn't understand that T1 items are not in the game for the explicit purpose of building T2 items, and that the only reason T1 items are included as a part of the building material is to ensure that T2 modules DON'T compete with T1 products.
Explicitness has nothing to do with it. It's just how the game's ecology has organically developed over the years. These days, T1 items are components — the character base has grown old enough that T2 is the baseline, and the skill system has been altered to make T2 quicker to get for new players as well so even that potential customer base is quickly removed.

The only exception are a select few (non-representative) items where the balance between meta 4 and meta 5 — usually in terms of fitting space and cap draw — is such that it matches a specific niche for specialist ships that are low on those exact two stats. In even fewer cases, the meta 5 item does indeed not have anything to offer above the meta 4 (other than universal availability), so if you want to complain about those, then go ahead… but guess what, CCP are slowly changing that (most recently with armour plates).

Quote:
Tippia also seems to be under the impression that seomeone who's entire playtime consists of nothing but bulding and selling stuff, and managing almost a couple hundred market orders comprised almost entirely of things they build, valuing into the 10s of billions doesn't seem to know what they're talking about.
No. I'm under the impression that someone who offers a whole slew of modules that are being sold solely for their mineral contents as as an illustration of modules that compete with T1 sales doesn't know what they're talking about. The number of market orders you have is utterly irrelevant at that point — what matters is that you show that you haven't done your research about modules in question. The thousand LHRs sold a day are not pilots picking a meta item over T2 for their ship — it's manufacturers picking free minerals over expensive minerals. And oh my, what's that? T1 numbers correlate closely with T2 numbers? It's almost as if one is used to produce the other…

I'm under the impression that you don't know what you're talking about because you failed to spot the obvious in your own example.

Quote:
In a player driven sandbox game, the **** that players make should be the best stuff, the crap you get off mobs should be sold as value items so that you can buy the better stuff that players make.
No. In player-driven sandbox, the player should be in control of supply and demand. They are. The stuff they build should be the best stuff. it is. And the crap you get off of mods should be different enough not to compete with the player-made stuff. It is, and it doesn't, and the pricing of it is entirely player-made as well. Everything is already exactly the way you want it to be — your problem is that you have arbitrarily limited your scope to not include the entire industrial sector.

Quote:
I do not believe that CCP intends for loot drops to make the player made varaints obselete on the market
And guess what? They don't. They can't. This is is the point you keep missing. Named items cannot perform the same function as T1. When you keep harping on about how named items should not be better than manufactured items, you miss the fact that they already are — either in terms of stats (T2) or in terms of what you can do with them (T1), and always in terms of availability.

The situation you're asking for is already in the game.


YOU do not work for CCP, drop the sanctimonious know it all bs tippia.

CCP NEVER said t1 production is just for or even primarily for t2 production.


You seem to not get that CCP has rebalanced stats on loot drops before when they were obseleting other items.
CCP has been really clear that they want to remove "best used" and have everything be useful.

Being able to make a t2 bpc out of a t1 bpo does not make a t1 item better. That's a load of crap.

There are meta4 guns with t2 stats and t1 skill prerequisites, and they are not purchased for minerals, they're fitted to ships. Quit telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, you're simply wrong.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-10-26 15:06:40 UTC
10mn Microwarp drive
Capacitor bonus
Meta 0 25%

Meta 3 19%

T2 17%

19% cap bonus makes it the most desireable module, over both the player built versions.

There is a never ending supply of the meta 3.

It isn't purchased for minerals, it reprocesses into a fraction of what they go for on the market.

They have a much larger market footprint because they aren't just fitted to ships, they're also used to increaase the success chance during inventiion. You can't use the meta 0 during the invention process.

It costs about 200k to build the meta 0. Even when priced higher on the market than the meta 0, the meta 3 will outsell it. Because they sell for so little, and the supply is ALWAYS there, it's impossible to price it a level that would make buying BOTH of the player built variants worthwhile. Nor can I reduce the price on the meta 0.

The T2 variant will sell a couple every day, that's cool. The meta 0 will sell a couple a week, not so cool. The meta 3 sells by the dozens, every day.

This is EVERY MWD and AB.

If you do invention, you have the blueprint already. If you're inventing, your most likely building; so you're building the meta 0 already. The footprint for meta 0 items on the market, due to T2 manufacturing is not large enough to drive meta 0 sales. Unlike meta 1-4 items which are worth buying at affordable prices, for the purpose of invention.

Meta 1-4 have a much larger footprint in the invention process than meta 0 do in T2 production.

Some loot items hold a monopoly in the market, and it's not always the T1 market that suffers; some T2 markets are being impacted by meta 3-4 items. Some of those items are on par with T2 items, but only require T1 skill prereqs to use. No looted item should do that, unless that item is exceptionally rare. The items I see every day doing this are not rare items, they're in abundance.

There are several ways CCP can correct this without hurting PvEers or industrialists. Adjust the stats down so that they're only SLIGHTLY BETTER than meta 0 items. This is not every item, just some, but enough that as a full time builder and selling it's obnoxious. Especially when it's an item that is in VERY high demand.

This is not conjecture or opinion, this is fact based entirely on the numbers in the game. Everyone can see this by following the market, pretty much anywhere in New Eden.

Just because people aren't vocal about this, or because some people don't care because you can just sell the meta 1-4 items, does not mean there isn't a balance problem. This is no different than everyone flying hulks, or no one buying mining frigates, it's just not as big a deal. CCP has already indicated that they do not want these "must use" type situations.

T2 production isn't a valid enough reason, especially when some of these items are actually impacting that market as well.
When you go to the market to buy an item to fit to your ship, the first and best option should not be something looted off an NPC, it should be something built by players using materials gathered by other players. When some stuff already works this way, so to should all the rest.
Media freak
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2012-10-27 05:43:26 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
10mn Microwarp drive
Capacitor bonus
Meta 0 25%

Meta 3 19%

T2 17%

19% cap bonus makes it the most desireable module, over both the player built versions.




Didn't read the rest the that Capacitor bonus is a negative it lowers the total amount of capacitor so the T2 is better in that. The thing is fitting requirements on T2 are higher and the fact that the T2 has a higher cost of activation.

Meta 3 is not more desirable because of the higher Capacitor penalty. -17 > -19
Aineko Macx
#107 - 2012-10-27 09:05:14 UTC
The only thing I'm distilling from the goons rant is that meta 1-4 item supply (drop rate) should be adjusted to the point where its trading price stays above meta 0 and below meta 5.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#108 - 2012-10-27 09:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
YOU do not work for CCP, drop the sanctimonious know it all bs tippia.
I have to start before I stop. How about instead, you stop making claims about how things are “supposed to” be used, hmm?

I'm merely stating the reality of the situation here: T2 has, over time, become the baseline. T1 has turned into a mere component for T2. A ton of T1 is sold, not for use, but as components for T2. Named items do not cut into those sales for the simple reason that they can't. In fact, in many cases you'd suspect that large volumes of low-meta is used as invention aids and thus go into a completely different part of the T2 process where they also don't compete with T1 (or vice versa).

What T1 was “supposed to” do when it was created is of little consequence now that we have T2, and the presence of T2 means that your categorical claim that looted goods are better than manufactured goods is false, as categorical statements categorically are.

Quote:
You seem to not get that CCP has rebalanced stats on loot drops before when they were obseleting other items.
…you mean aside from me pointing that out already?

Quote:
10mn Microwarp drive
Capacitor bonus
Meta 0 25%

Meta 3 19%

T2 17%

19% cap bonus makes it the most desireable module, over both the player built versions.
Yeah, see, it's this kind of blatantly obvious misunderstanding of the numbers (and a slight hint of data manipulation) that has long since removed any trust I had in your claims and conclude that, no matter how much you bluster about your market presence, you are clueless about how things work. No, those are not the numbers and no, that is not a logical conclusion.

T1: -25%.
Meta-3: -19%.
T2: -17%.

You want this bonus to be as high as possible. -17% is higher than -19% and both are higher than -25%. Even if we overlooked the fact that you missed that they are penalties (as shown by the minus sign), the conclusion that somehow the middle bonus is better than both the higher and the lower one is outright nonsensical.

Quote:
If you do invention, you have the blueprint already. If you're inventing, your most likely building; so you're building the meta 0 already.
If you do a lot of invention, you don't want to waste production slots on something as unimportant as a T1 item — there are far more important components that you might want to save your ISK on (if nothing else, the final T2 item itself).

Quote:
Some loot items hold a monopoly in the market, and it's not always the T1 market that suffers; some T2 markets are being impacted by meta 3-4 items.
…and this is being adjusted, not that it's much of a problem to begin with. Again, the item that fit into this category tend to cater to a very specific niche market where one or two of the advantages meta 4 has over meta 5 is exactly what that market is watching for, so the advantages of meta 5 over meta 4 become less important. In these cases, you'll also often find that the named items are much more expensive due to (drum roll) supply and demand.

This also explains your MWD example: for most fits, people are often more interested in the cap draw than in the cap buffer. If the latter is what you're after, then the T2 is better, and thus the market for it exists as well. Neither is absolutely “better” — they just fit different purposes.
Aedh Phelan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-10-27 11:19:59 UTC
Based on the identity of the OP, the content of the post and markers in writing style that indicate the possibility some of the post might be copy pasted from multiple previous whines, I am going to assume the following:

Late evening consumption of some product may have adversley impacted natural trolling inhibitions resulting in the post which is in fact a sarcastic trolling. I suspect the OP easily recognized that all would see the humor.

We all know that "reduced inhibitions" often make things look better than they trully are.

As such I wholeheartedly +2 this thread. That flight of shame back to the station can be rough in the morning.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-10-28 07:27:52 UTC
Media freak wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
10mn Microwarp drive
Capacitor bonus
Meta 0 25%

Meta 3 19%

T2 17%

19% cap bonus makes it the most desireable module, over both the player built versions.




Didn't read the rest the that Capacitor bonus is a negative it lowers the total amount of capacitor so the T2 is better in that. The thing is fitting requirements on T2 are higher and the fact that the T2 has a higher cost of activation.

Meta 3 is not more desirable because of the higher Capacitor penalty. -17 > -19


That's what I'm pointing though. It's an extremely common mod that sells pretty much everytime a ship is purchased, that has a low SP prereq, and is NEARLY as good as a T2.

It's only a 2% from it to the T2, whereas the meta 0 has a 6% gap. People that can use the T2 version are buying the meta 3 version.

A T2 has a guanteed bottom line, and sells for over a million isk. You can spend over a million on an extra 2% cap and higher activation, or you can spend less than it costs to build the T1 version for only 2% less cap and a lower activation cost.



The NPC dropped variant isn't balanced around, what is suppoed to be, the player build T1 variant. When you look at "variants" in the info window, the meta 0 is listed as it's tech level variant; not the T2.

There are other T1 varants in the game with stats that appear to be balanced as "alternatives" to it's T2 counterpart, but are listed as T1 variants.

T1 varants appear to be "common" loot. There tends to be an overabundance of these items on the market.

These are items that tend to have mineral costs far bellow what it costs to manufacture the T1 versions.

CCP's solution to prevent npc loot from being another form of mineral, is pretty much killing the market on T1 items. I do not believe this was ever CCP's intent.



"No one cares because we just import the NPC loot to sell, and use T1's for T2 production" isn't a valid reason to not balance the NPC loot so that the player made T1 versions aren't the go to worst option when fitting a ship. It wouldn't hurt the game to make NPC loot just an option, and not THE go to option.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-10-28 07:36:31 UTC
Aedh Phelan wrote:
Based on the identity of the OP, the content of the post and markers in writing style that indicate the possibility some of the post might be copy pasted from multiple previous whines, I am going to assume the following:

Late evening consumption of some product may have adversley impacted natural trolling inhibitions resulting in the post which is in fact a sarcastic trolling. I suspect the OP easily recognized that all would see the humor.

We all know that "reduced inhibitions" often make things look better than they trully are.

As such I wholeheartedly +2 this thread. That flight of shame back to the station can be rough in the morning.


As someone who plays EVE to build and sell things, about the only part of the game that is important to me is building, selling, and knowing that people have lots and lots of fun ways to blow each other up.

You see me posting the same issues in other threads because we like to have as many threads about the same thing as we can here.

I see problems that revolve around my playstyle, not really suprising that my posts tend to involve things that I think are issues with the market and industry. I also consider these things to be issues related to null space; seeing as that's where I do my work. This also happens to be something that high sec industry guys would benefit from, as well as should support.


And I do a lot of consumption from the time I wake up; I've earned the right.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#112 - 2012-10-28 07:38:42 UTC
Well damn, if you are going to hate on meta 4, look no further than the Meta 4 Target painter.

Screw Meta 0 It's identical to T2 in every way except Meta 4 only takes 16 cpu. T2 takes 24 and the Meta 4 version can be bought in bulk for .6 the cost of a T2
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-10-28 07:40:35 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Well damn, if you are going to hate on meta 4, look no further than the Meta 4 Target painter.

Screw Meta 0 It's identical to T2 in every way except Meta 4 only takes 16 cpu. T2 takes 24 and the Meta 4 version can be bought in bulk for .6 the cost of a T2

EXACTLY!

Am I crazy? I feel like I'm the only person that thinks this might be a slight balance issue.
It's supposed to be a T1 variant, not a T2.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#114 - 2012-10-28 12:28:52 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This isn't supply and demand.


This is, player made items have worse stats than named npc loot, but the most mineral investment.

It costs 50k to build said item, while the NPC loot variant with bettter stats can be sold for 3k isk on the market and make a profit. Gues what people AREN'T buying, the **** made by the player.


The cheap **** should be the cheapest ****, not the most expensive. WTF.


Oh look. A goon is angry about highsec industry.

Wait, hang on, he's trying to buff it? Shocked

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-10-28 15:19:14 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

So that the worst items in the game can be sold for less than the best items in the game.


The best items in the game can't be manufactured at all, they are looted, rarely, from NPC's found only in Nulsec.

CCP gave T1 manufacturing a massive boost by removing those same modules from npc loot tables, now Player Based Manufacturing is the ONLY source for those items.

Meta1 to Meta4 & Meta6+ items are a different matter entirely and offer something different, usually, to both thier T1 and T2 counterparts.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#116 - 2012-10-28 15:45:38 UTC
So, remove meta drops from hisec, solved?

.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2012-10-28 17:15:18 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

So that the worst items in the game can be sold for less than the best items in the game.


The best items in the game can't be manufactured at all, they are looted, rarely, from NPC's found only in Nulsec.

CCP gave T1 manufacturing a massive boost by removing those same modules from npc loot tables, now Player Based Manufacturing is the ONLY source for those items.

Meta1 to Meta4 & Meta6+ items are a different matter entirely and offer something different, usually, to both thier T1 and T2 counterparts.

Except for the T1 meta items that are better than the T1 meta 0, like meta 3 and 4 items that are as good as T2 items.

I'm not making this **** up guys, there are T1 npc loot variants that are not just "different" they're items with stat benefits that make the meta 0 ones that players build obselte outside T2 manufacturing.

There aren't rare items, they're common drop items.
Every AB and MWD of the T1 variety that drops of a mob is better than what a player can make, and the highest meta version is only slightly better than the T2 version.


The player made T1 versions have less desireable stats than their meta variants, and because the meta variants have very low mineral value, people will sell them at prices under T1 and T2 items.

Why would you pay 1.5m isk for a T2 10mn mwd when you can buy the meta 3 version for like 25-30k that has a lower activation cost and only 2% percent more cap. Then when you throw in the meta 0 one that has a base manufacturing cost of around 200k, and you're talking about an item that is pointless to build unless you building the T2 version.


I don't want reproccessing raised on npc loot, I don't really want manufactruing costs on BP's reduced I just don't want T1 npc loot to have better stats than the player made stuff. Sometimes even different is better, and there are things that don't offfer "different" options they simply have better stats.

You sholdn't be penalized or at a dissadvantage because you choose to utilize the player driven part of the EVE sandbox. The T1 market is one of the largest markets in the game, and builders are being pushed out of it because of the T1 NPC loot.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#118 - 2012-10-28 17:19:05 UTC
Roime wrote:
So, remove meta drops from hisec, solved?



No, just reduce the stat gaps between meta 0 and meta 4 so that meta 4 is closer to meta 0 and not close to or on par with T2.

And then bump meta 0 to the meta 4 spot and knock all the NPC loot down to meta 0-3.

The highest meta items should be built by players, faction and officer loot, deadspace loot, and extremely rare named drops.
Momoyo
Rivinshield Trading Inc.
#119 - 2012-10-28 20:22:55 UTC
Like others have said meta 0 items have a price floor because of the cost of minerals. Meta items however are worth whatever people will pay for them and what sellers are willing to price them at. Supply and demand. When CCP removed Meta 0 drops from npcs the prices of meta 3 and 4 items decreased substantially. I'm not sure exactly why but maybe the removal of meta 0 increased the drop chances of meta 3 and 4's.

One person suggested that meta 4 drops be moved to null sec, meta 3 to low and meta 1 and 2 stay in high sec. This would increase the prices of meta 3 and 4 items, thereby slightly improving the income of null and low sec dwellers. It makes sense for these items to be pricey as in many cases they are comparable to t2 items without the skill requirements. I think it would also improve the market for meta 0 items as meta 3 and 4 wont be as affordable as they are now.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#120 - 2012-10-28 20:33:00 UTC
Aedh Phelan wrote:
Based on the identity of the OP, the content of the post and markers in writing style that indicate the possibility some of the post might be copy pasted from multiple previous whines, I am going to assume the following:

Late evening consumption of some product may have adversley impacted natural trolling inhibitions resulting in the post which is in fact a sarcastic trolling. I suspect the OP easily recognized that all would see the humor.

We all know that "reduced inhibitions" often make things look better than they trully are.

As such I wholeheartedly +2 this thread. That flight of shame back to the station can be rough in the morning.

Must be a long flight. This is now 4 days in.

Maybe he's using a T1 MWD?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."