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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5501 - 2012-10-28 10:28:58 UTC
serras bang wrote:
well i got a thought if these changes go through lets all change to winmatar ships so they will by the logic of this thread be popular and also op so they get a heavy nerf then we change back to caldari ships when there actualy half decent again


Cane is going to get nerfed at the same time heavy missiles do.

Do you see Cane pilots whining here? I don't and I know why: they are busy figuring out how to setup their ship in the future.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#5502 - 2012-10-28 10:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Dato Koppla wrote:
I'm a little confused, do the people who are vehemently supporting the changes like Lili and gang think that other medium LR turrets are crap? It seems so from the posts I've read though obviously I haven't read all of them.


Ferox with 4 magstabs does 210 dps at 97 km with Spike.
Ferox with 4 magstabs does 181 dps at 75 km with CN Tungsten.
No enough low slots for more damage mods or even a suitcase.
Ferox with 4 magstabs does 368 dps at 13 km with Javelin (still less than what Drake can do at 70 km).

Compare those to 3x BCS Drake at both distances. Btw, it has a suitcase.

And all this is based on paper dps numbers so in game you have to be lucky to actually do that damage.



Wow is your reading ability really that bad? Just don't bother replying to my posts, it's a waste of both your time and especially mine.

Edit//
Since this post is on the next page and Jorma only quoted the part of my post that he could manage to read, here's the original.

Dato Koppla wrote:
I'm a little confused, do the people who are vehemently supporting the changes like Lili and gang think that other medium LR turrets are crap? It seems so from the posts I've read though obviously I haven't read all of them.

and if they do, how can you support Fozzie using basically never used broken weapons as the basis to balance HMs as he mentioned in the OP.

Also, relax when you guys reply to this, I don't want a wall of flaming text, just a simple clarification. I agree with these changes as they serve their intended purpose, (bringing HMs down to the level of other medium LR weapons) I just think it's not the way to go about this.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5503 - 2012-10-28 10:41:33 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Wow is your reading ability really that bad? Just don't bother replying to my posts, it's a waste of both your time and especially mine.


Are you saying they should buff medium long range turrets?

Ever heard of power creep?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5504 - 2012-10-28 10:44:36 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Gotta love the fanboyz screaming it's their game they'll do what they want JUST LEAVE CCP FOZZIE ALONE ! *tear-streaked-mascara* Lol


if emos can rage over their beloved HML's i will rage for my fozzie. for those who cry about paying as much as everyone else, if ur unhappy with a service, dnt pay dnt play - emo rage gwaaah- *mascara down my cheeks and tearing up my women's underwear*

Dato Koppla wrote:
I'm a little confused, do the people who are vehemently supporting the changes like Lili and gang think that other medium LR turrets are crap? It seems so from the posts I've read though obviously I haven't read all of them.

and if they do, how can you support Fozzie using basically never used broken weapons as the basis to balance HMs as he mentioned in the OP.

Also, relax when you guys reply to this, I don't want a wall of flaming text, just a simple clarification. I agree with these changes as they serve their intended purpose, (bringing HMs down to the level of other medium LR weapons) I just think it's not the way to go about this.


yeah they are pretty bad and hardly ever used. but the reason they are so crap and hardly ever used is because HML's outperform them so much there is no point to use anything but HML's. nerfing the missiles will hopefully allow players using medium long range turrets to be more competitive. (honestly HML's are still looking much better tho, i dnt think they've completely brought them in line with other medium LR turrets).

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5505 - 2012-10-28 10:49:53 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Are you saying they should buff medium long range turrets?

Ever heard of power creep?



^^that
and HML's are effective at close and ranged combat, to give long ranged turrets the same abilities would require something very creative.

it would take more changes to get turrets upto the power of HML's than it would to get HML's down. more changes usually increases the chances of getting it wrong and creating more work for urself.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5506 - 2012-10-28 10:54:39 UTC
One more comparison for missile users:
Tengu does 600+ dps at 100 km with heavy missiles.
'Mare does 562 dps at 100 km (also max effective targeting range) with Aurora.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5507 - 2012-10-28 11:24:07 UTC
For short medium range engagement (25-50km), medium turrets do works, just HML completely obsolete them, and now tier3 BC.

The problem for these weapons is not really the weapons by themselves, it's more the whole picture. Large turrets are superior to medium turrets in all their engagement range, and also have theirs, and tier3 BC now have these large turrets, combining cruisers agility with large turrets range and BS firepower, largely obsoleting medLR turrets who only have (still poor) tracking as an advantage against them.

Metagame still have to adapt to these tier3 BC IMO ; at least for this short medium range and small scale.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5508 - 2012-10-28 11:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
^^ This.

Tier3s will (continue to) dominate BC/Cruiser combat at ranges >40km (approx). Leaving Medium LR weapons only really effective between 20-40Km (approx).

  • HMLs will still be very good at these ranges.
  • Medium Arty's will compete (largely due to Alpha, and the combination of Shield-Tanking+TEs).
  • Beam Lazors will lose out to a Heavy Pulse Lazor + Scorch (going out to 30Km, depending on fit).
    • [*] Rails will still be relatively useless at these ranges (and almost impossible to build a decent fit for).
    Faora Zod
    Don't mess with this DoJo
    #5509 - 2012-10-28 14:03:05 UTC
    [/quote]

    Missiles and Projectiles have selectable damage
    hybrids and lasers do not
    hybrids use some cap to shoot
    lasers use cap to shoot
    Missiles and Projectiles do not use cap
    Missiles and Projectiles take 10s to reload
    hybrids take 5 s to reload
    lasers are instant [/quote]

    man i am glad you clarified this for me, after all these years of playing eve i had no idea projectiles and missiles didn't use cap and that hybrids and lasers do, Next time you log into eve count how many different types of standard HM there are than count the projectiles, crystals, and hybrid ammo types. In case you do not notice, they all do one of the 4 types of standard damage however each one of the guns has ammo or crystals that gives you a positive effect, as well as a negative effect to it.
    So which weapon systems have a wider range of selectable damage types?
    Dato Koppla
    Balls Deep Inc.
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #5510 - 2012-10-28 14:26:15 UTC
    Yeah I get that current HMs eclipse other medium LR weapons which is why they're used more, but it's not just HMs, Drakes having BS sized tank and good resists for logi, 100mn AB tengus being able to take advantage of range extremely well, also comes into play and a plethora of other things that have been already mentioned. Also a whole load of other reasons other than 'HMs are better' contribute to other medium LR weapons being basically never used like Tier 3 BCs, range on Scorch/Barrage etc.

    I'm just not convinced that nerfing HMs will give other medium LR weapons a new lease on life, I feel it's more likely that the entire medium LR weapon group will remain crappy (although 720mm arty cane will still probably see some use as alpha is quite a powerful trait). I realize that buffing other medium LR weapons will result in power creep but honestly, look around the forums, there's some massive power creep going on in this balancing, I'm not saying it's the only solution, I'm not even saying that I think buffing other medium LR weapons will fix this problem because frankly i don't know. I just think this whole issue needs to be discussed further and looked at from another angle.

    We have to let the metagame settle from these changes first before we know anything for certain, but in my opinion nothing much is going to change, HMs will still see similar use but slightly less than now, and all the other medium LR turrets will remain in a similar position.
    Jorma Morkkis
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #5511 - 2012-10-28 14:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
    Faora Zod wrote:
    So which weapon systems have a wider range of selectable damage types?


    Missiles.

    Missiles: 4 damage types
    Projectiles: 4 damage types, mixed: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Weapons_guide#Standard_Ammunition_3

    Lasers: EM and thermal only, difference between crystals:
    - more range means less damage
    - damage types go from almost 50/50 (Multifrequency) to pure EM (Radio), Scorch is ~89% EM and rest is thermal, Conflagration has 50/50 mix of EM/thermal

    Hybrids: Kinetic and thermal only. Difference between ammo:
    - more range means less damage
    - damage types used in different ammo varies, some have higher kinetic damage and some higher thermal damage
    - ammo choices are usually antimatter for short range (+ Void with blasters) and whatever delivers most damage at long range is used for long range.
    Opertone
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #5512 - 2012-10-28 14:45:53 UTC
    Sigras wrote:
    [quote=Opertone]You folks miss the point. You've got to be one of Caldari to understand
    ]
    You're operating under the gross assumption that
    #1. Caldari pilots train primarily for caldari ships
    #2. People never cross train

    Both of these assumptions are unspeakably moronic because both of them are demonstrably untrue.

    Missiles sucked in PvP because of lag, lag would either cause the missiles to do no damage or cause the node to crash because of increased load etc etc etc.

    Only after they basically fixed lag with TiDi did missiles start to become a problem because now theyre on equal footing with guns (lag wise) and theyre clearly a superior platform.


    The Harpy, Hawk, Hookbill, and Moa would all like a word with you.

    First off, allow me to introduce you to a little module I like to call "EM Ward Field II" it has a way of fixing that EM hole problem you mentioned. Just like the armor tankers have to fix that Explosive hole problem . . . Roll

    Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by them taking the most damage up close or being primary . . . they take no more damage than anyone else up close, and usually dont get primaried over anyone else because of their race . . .

    Try flying a gallente ship that is supposed to armor tank, and still somehow cram damage mods and tracking enhancers on, and is slower because of the armor tank, and has no 5% resist bonus then come back and whine to me . . . I might take you more seriously.


    You do not even play the FFF... game. Quit your posting. You have not played as caldari character. Your POV is so out of this world. You are not even trying.

    This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

    WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

    really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
    Joe Risalo
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #5513 - 2012-10-28 14:55:36 UTC
    Jorma Morkkis wrote:
    serras bang wrote:
    well i got a thought if these changes go through lets all change to winmatar ships so they will by the logic of this thread be popular and also op so they get a heavy nerf then we change back to caldari ships when there actualy half decent again


    Cane is going to get nerfed at the same time heavy missiles do.

    Do you see Cane pilots whining here? I don't and I know why: they are busy figuring out how to setup their ship in the future.


    The cane is getting a fitting nerf while at the same time having the fitting costs of arty being reduced.

    This will allow them to fit for range and be able to out range a drake with no issues.


    A fitting nerf is easy to counter. All you have to do is swap out some modules.


    Dealing with a dps nerf on a ship that already didn't have that much dps is something else.

    Now, a range nerf that puts it at the lowest range of all bc's isn't so easy to counter.
    Dato Koppla
    Balls Deep Inc.
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #5514 - 2012-10-28 14:58:41 UTC
    Jorma Morkkis wrote:
    Faora Zod wrote:
    So which weapon systems have a wider range of selectable damage types?


    Missiles.

    Missiles: 4 damage types
    Projectiles: 4 damage types, mixed: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Weapons_guide#Standard_Ammunition_3
    .


    Many Caldari missile boats get a kinetic damage bonus and are thus pigeon holed into kinetic despite fully selectable damage. So no, projectiles get the 'best' range of selectable damage as they don't have this.
    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #5515 - 2012-10-28 15:01:16 UTC
    Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
    ^^ This.

    Tier3s will (continue to) dominate BC/Cruiser combat at ranges >40km (approx). Leaving Medium LR weapons only really effective between 20-40Km (approx).

  • HMLs will still be very good at these ranges.
  • Medium Arty's will compete (largely due to Alpha, and the combination of Shield-Tanking+TEs).
  • Beam Lazors will lose out to a Heavy Pulse Lazor + Scorch (going out to 30Km, depending on fit).
  • Rails will still be relatively useless at these ranges (and almost impossible to build a decent fit for).
    • Infact, I tend to think that the drake is not so hurt by tier3 BC, because it already somewhat stand against BS, and it's HML really hurt these BC. In fact, tier3 BC will tend to prefer outranging the drakes than opposing them IMO, leaving HML range to the drake or BS.

    So these changes could save the HAM drake and put the HML in the same situation than other medLR turrets, which could be seen as bad, but I think that in the end, if we want to save *all* the medLR weapons, we need to have them all in the same situation anyway.

    Looking at the recent changes, it seem that cruisers, and most notably attack cruisers, with their new high speed, may be able to use these weapons ; then, the BC could take the same place destroyers have for frigates, on top of their cheap canon fodder role for large fleet.

    About powercreep, I think we are not in it yet : indeed a lot of ships are far better than before, though I think it's only the power margin between all ships which is reduced.
    Sigras
    Conglomo
    #5516 - 2012-10-28 15:01:39 UTC
    Dato Koppla wrote:
    I'm a little confused, do the people who are vehemently supporting the changes like Lili and gang think that other medium LR turrets are crap? It seems so from the posts I've read though obviously I haven't read all of them.

    and if they do, how can you support Fozzie using basically never used broken weapons as the basis to balance HMs as he mentioned in the OP.

    Also, relax when you guys reply to this, I don't want a wall of flaming text, just a simple clarification. I agree with these changes as they serve their intended purpose, (bringing HMs down to the level of other medium LR weapons) I just think it's not the way to go about this.

    Its not that we believe the turrets are crap, its that we believe they are crap compared with the HML

    Well that and the tier threes dont really help the situation either . . . but once again fixing them is much harder than bringing the HML in line with all the other long range turrets.
    Sigras
    Conglomo
    #5517 - 2012-10-28 15:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
    Opertone wrote:
    Sigras wrote:
    Opertone wrote:
    You're operating under the gross assumption that
    #1. Caldari pilots train primarily for caldari ships
    #2. People never cross train


    Both of these assumptions are unspeakably moronic because both of them are demonstrably untrue.

    Missiles sucked in PvP because of lag, lag would either cause the missiles to do no damage or cause the node to crash because of increased load etc etc etc.

    Only after they basically fixed lag with TiDi did missiles start to become a problem because now theyre on equal footing with guns (lag wise) and theyre clearly a superior platform.


    The Harpy, Hawk, Hookbill, and Moa would all like a word with you.

    First off, allow me to introduce you to a little module I like to call "EM Ward Field II" it has a way of fixing that EM hole problem you mentioned. Just like the armor tankers have to fix that Explosive hole problem . . . Roll

    Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by them taking the most damage up close or being primary . . . they take no more damage than anyone else up close, and usually dont get primaried over anyone else because of their race . . .

    Try flying a gallente ship that is supposed to armor tank, and still somehow cram damage mods and tracking enhancers on, and is slower because of the armor tank, and has no 5% resist bonus then come back and whine to me . . . I might take you more seriously.


    You do not even play the FFF... game. Quit your posting. You have not played as caldari character. Your POV is so out of this world. You are not even trying.

    I love how you never offered a single counter point to any of the arguments made in my post, instead you just attacked my character . . .
    Let me guess, you must be running for US president this year . . . Roll

    Anyway, if you can scrape together an argument perhaps try posting that, Johnny Storm
    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #5518 - 2012-10-28 15:08:00 UTC
    Joe Risalo wrote:
    The cane is getting a fitting nerf while at the same time having the fitting costs of arty being reduced.

    This will allow them to fit for range and be able to out range a drake with no issues.

    A fitting nerf is easy to counter. All you have to do is swap out some modules.

    Dealing with a dps nerf on a ship that already didn't have that much dps is something else.

    Now, a range nerf that puts it at the lowest range of all bc's isn't so easy to counter.

    Just swap out some modules, you can do it both for range AND dps. And your not so good dps is already and will still be the best of its peers at range.

    BTW, outranging a drake in a BC is not without issues. Have you ever tried it ? I doubt it, your ship at this range will have nothing but guns, as opposed to the drake. Tier3 BC are another story.
    serras bang
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #5519 - 2012-10-28 15:48:52 UTC
    tbh ccp has been extreamly heavy handed on missles and havent thought it through at all its camoflage fozzie said itll be closer to its real range and more intuative to new players.

    im sorry but ive always known my range on missle by a simple calculation of equiped missles flightime and velocity minus 10% for target speed i dont see a problem here.
    Jorma Morkkis
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #5520 - 2012-10-28 16:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
    Joe Risalo wrote:
    The cane is getting a fitting nerf while at the same time having the fitting costs of arty being reduced.

    This will allow them to fit for range and be able to out range a drake with no issues.


    A fitting nerf is easy to counter. All you have to do is swap out some modules.


    Dealing with a dps nerf on a ship that already didn't have that much dps is something else.

    Now, a range nerf that puts it at the lowest range of all bc's isn't so easy to counter.


    Cane does 278 dps at 82 km with Tremor (T2 projectile locus, 3x TE).
    How is that going to outrange this?

    [Drake, Draek]

    Internal Force Field Array I
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II

    Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
    Large Shield Extender II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    EM Ward Field II
    Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
    Sensor Booster II

    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    [Empty High slot]

    Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
    Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
    Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

    With current missile stats that's 414 dps at 134 km.