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Goodbye eve - Wardec systems is broke still
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Dyvim Slorm
Coven of the Morrigan
#61 - 2012-10-27 12:22:12 UTC
Violanter wrote:
My only bother with this is that the original entity can screw over the aggressor permanently for "little" hassle with no repercussions.
The fact that they can swap their dec to an alliance and then run is somewhat broken imo.
They took it to the alliance when they entered so they should keep it with them when they leave, ( not just some 1 week pittance)

Also OP be happy for all those WT's maybe you should undock and have some fun


I agree, the mechanics could do with some tightening up, I don't see why making a war mutual should in effect transfer that war to a third party for free and leave the wardecced corp free to walk away.

However, the OP should have checked out the possible consequences first also I'm not sure it's such a good idea to announce in forums to his opponents that he has a POS.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-10-27 12:22:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Schalac wrote:
It's funny because when this happened to the goons and half of new eden was dogpiling onto a free wardec with them, it was a glitch and immediately patched out of the game.

Apples are exactly like oranges, especially in winter.
Bad example… P

*LOL* noted ! ^_^
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#63 - 2012-10-27 12:23:13 UTC
Tetsuigablm wrote:

I am required to run away from it, because it wont end in 7 days like a war normally would,


There's a difference between requirements and the ability to choose from options.

Option 1: Fight the war
Option 2: Run away from the war
Option 3: Recruit like a madman and start the decshield-shield alliance, forever fighting decshield

I'm sure there's other options, but I think this is enough to get the point across.
Geonosu Sirus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-10-27 12:24:44 UTC
Its funny how the OP several times stated his own ignorance on how war decs work got him into this mess, yet he still cries about it. Please keep crying your tears are delicious!
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#65 - 2012-10-27 12:27:10 UTC
Dyvim Slorm wrote:
Violanter wrote:
My only bother with this is that the original entity can screw over the aggressor permanently for "little" hassle with no repercussions.
The fact that they can swap their dec to an alliance and then run is somewhat broken imo.
They took it to the alliance when they entered so they should keep it with them when they leave, ( not just some 1 week pittance)

Also OP be happy for all those WT's maybe you should undock and have some fun


I agree, the mechanics could do with some tightening up, I don't see why making a war mutual should in effect transfer that war to a third party for free and leave the wardecced corp free to walk away.

However, the OP should have checked out the possible consequences first also I'm not sure it's such a good idea to announce in forums to his opponents that he has a POS.


"A Corporation leaving an alliance at war will take with it all wars the alliance was in, with immediate effect. New wars will be declared with the leaving corp as aggressor, and the first week of war will be free. A bill will be issued for the second week of war, and if it is not paid, the war will end at the end of the free week."

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Wars

Not sure if it works like that, but that was put on the wiki by a gm.

Nothing is stopping the corp that went to decshield from having a new war dec placed on them after they leave decshield as well, unless i'm mistaken.
Tetsuigablm
Channel Six News
#66 - 2012-10-27 12:33:49 UTC
.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2012-10-27 12:38:30 UTC
Quote:
I've noticed you're currently the victim of a wardec. I represent Dec Shield alliance, and I'm here to make you a very interesting offer to permanently cripple your enemy.

Due to current game mechanics we're able to lock your enemies into a permanent wardec with our alliance. This means:

- They'll NEVER be able to leave the war except by disbanding
- They'll NEVER be safe in highsec
- If they're a corp, they'll NEVER be able to join an alliance
- If they're an alliance, they'll NEVER be able to recruit more corps
- If they're an alliance, none of their corps will EVER be safe, even if they leave alliance
- Their members will NEVER be able to rejoin more than once every week

Furthermore, we'll take this war and split it and give copies to PVP corps/alliances who will be able to hunt down your enemy FOREVER. This means you'll effectively gain a massive standing army who will grief your enemies FOREVER.

This thread explains how we're doing this and why:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1957750

If you're interested in permanently screwing your enemy then I strongly suggest you take a look. I will be available to answer any questions, or they can be answered in the forum thread.

To give you an example of our history, we were the driving force behind the latest expansion to revamp wardecs:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22792

And our track record for helping corporations:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Dec_Shield/corporations

I cannot give you instant retribution or protection, but I can give you the assurances that your enemy WILL regret wardeccing you. I look forward to hearing from you.

- Dec Shield


tj,dr- you ******** defenders are all wrong. The whole purpose of Dec Shield alliance is to expose this loophole in current wardec mechanics and bruteforce CCP to fix it.

.
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#68 - 2012-10-27 12:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Silk daShocka wrote:
Tetsuigablm wrote:

I am required to run away from it, because it wont end in 7 days like a war normally would,


There's a difference between requirements and the ability to choose from options.

Option 1: Fight the war

Option 2: Run away from the war

Option 3: Recruit like a madman and start the decshield-shield alliance, forever fighting decshield


I'm sure there's other options, but I think this is enough to get the point across.



As I'm in a mutual war with Decshield for a few weeks now, I can shed some light on this.


Option 1: Fight who? While decshield does make every war mutual it gets, they don't fight, they just keep you tied up.

Option 2: Run away: leave the corp/alliance (this is the only way ever to get out any war with Decshield)

Option 3: see option 1: hardly anyone to fight



Been travelling through Eve for weeks now, with about +- 18 wardecs on average (currently we got 20) How we got in this warmess? because we found out who hired 2 merc corps to dec us. So we decided to bring the fight to that coward. Regrettably he fled to decshield, causing us to be locked up in eternal conflict, where wars get added regulary.

In all the weeks I've flown, most WT are from the mercs, alll fine, they at least fight. Of Decshield, I only saw 2, one that got sucked in it like us (but on the other side) and another that didn't respond (and I wasn't in a combatship at the time)
Note, once yo'ure in a decshield war, you can't get out anyhow.

Now we're in a situation that you cannot risk to wardec anyone, unless you want the risk to end up in an everlasting wardec with Decshield. In short, it promotes a PvP free highsec (no wardecs) For all those discussing Decshield & it's wardec policy: I say; check their warhistory. The only corps/alliances that they ended war with was due to them being disbanded.

before anyone comments I'm a riskaverse highsecbear: I live in lowsec & enjoy it very much there, not fond of the safety highsec offers (albeit the Decshield wars ended that :D So it's not too bad for me.

Edit: to the poster above me: yes that's what they plan to do: without the Pvp part, as there's hardly anyone to shoot at. Haven't seen a sign of this *massive PvP army*

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#69 - 2012-10-27 12:46:11 UTC
Roime wrote:


tj,dr- you ******** defenders are all wrong. The whole purpose of Dec Shield alliance is to expose this loophole in current wardec mechanics and bruteforce CCP to fix it.


If CCP agreed that it was an important issue to "fix" they probably would have done so by now by merely giving defenders a cost to maintain wars should the attackers try to surrender during a mutual war. Or, you know, just put a checkbox with mutual next to it.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#70 - 2012-10-27 12:49:05 UTC
Jandice Ymladris wrote:

As I'm in a mutual war with Decshield for a few weeks now, I can shed some light on this.


Option 1: Fight who? While decshield does make every war mutual it gets, they don't fight, they just keep you tied up.

Option 2: Run away: leave the corp/alliance (this is the only way ever to get out any war with Decshield)

Option 3: see option 1: hardly anyone to fight




While I do understand that being in war with decshield doens't necessarily mean you will get many targets to shoot at, you still do have options in this situation, which was what I was getting at.
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#71 - 2012-10-27 12:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Tippia wrote:

[
The point is also that there are a number of ways to get out of such a war, and by the sound of it, you've tried a total of zero of them.


Normally I agree with your post, but this looks like you don't fully understand the new wardec system & Decshields intent. Once you get involved in a war with Decshield, the only way to get out is by leaving the corp, or disbanding the corp, there is no surrender in a mutual war with Decshield (all corps & alliances that had their war ended against decshield, did so by disbanding)

Now you can say *your fault for deccing in the first place* and while it's indeed true, it also shows your flaw in saying that the mutual wardec system helps the defender. The moment the defender makes it mutual, the attacker can sucker the defender in a war with Decshield.

Endresult of all this? Never declare war, or make a war mutual, unless you like being locked in a lasting war.

Note; I wouldn't mind this mutual war buisness, IF THEY WOULD FIGHT BACK!

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2012-10-27 12:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Roime wrote:
tj,dr- you ******** defenders are all wrong.
Tl;dr: you haven't read what people are actually saying.
Nothing said so far has been wrong.

Jandice Ymladris wrote:
Normally I agree with your post, but this looks like you don't fully understand the new wardec system & Decshields intent. Once you get involved in a war with Decshield, the only way to get out is by leaving the corp, or disbanding the corp, there is no surrender in a mutual war with Decshield (all corps & alliances that had their war ended against decshield, did so by disbanding)
Oh, I understand the mechanics and the intent of decshield fully. As mentioned, I ran a decshield under the old wardec system, and just couldn't be arsed to continue under the new one.

The fact remains: there are ways to get out of it, and he has tried none of them. Some will perhaps be more difficult that usual, but that doesn't make them impossible.
Tetsuigablm
Channel Six News
#73 - 2012-10-27 12:52:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tetsuigablm
Thats what i was trying to get at, they wont accept a surrender, and i shouldnt have to re make a corp because of that, it wouldnt really be a hard fix to implement.

Im not against the mutual war concept, but its implemented poorly as of now. as ive said before, money needs to be involved to prevent free forever wars, i totally agree that the defender should be able to call in help, or hire help as the case may be, i get that, and i agree with it, but this is simply too much !
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2012-10-27 12:57:07 UTC
Tetsuigablm wrote:
Thats what i was trying to get at, they wont accept a surrender, and i shouldnt have to re make a corp because of that, it wouldnt really be a hard fix to implement.
What's to fix?

Again, the entire point of making a war mutual is to lock the aggressor into a war when he wants to get out of it, and reforming a crop has a long history of being an entirely accepted way out of undesired wars. If they won't accept a surrender out of spite, then tough — other means are still available to you (including trying again but with a higher incentive for the target to accept the terms).
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#75 - 2012-10-27 12:58:10 UTC
Tetsuigablm wrote:
Thats what i was trying to get at, they wont accept a surrender, and i shouldnt have to re make a corp because of that, it wouldnt really be a hard fix to implement.

Im not against the mutual war concept, but its implemented poorly as of now. as ive said before, money needs to be involved to prevent free forever wars, i totally agree that the defender should be able to call in help, or hire help as the case may be, i get that, and i agree with it, but this is simply too much !


So, would you be making this thread if dec shield didn't exist and you wouldn't drop the war on the 3 man corp that you war decced?

I mean they're only way out of the war would be the same as yours, is that broken as well?
Tetsuigablm
Channel Six News
#76 - 2012-10-27 13:02:14 UTC
to be honest yes it is unfair, and i still think its wrong, the whole idea behind raising the prices was to prevent people from keeping wars up forever, right? that was the REASONING behind it, im not gonna pay 50m a week to troll one guy forever, and this guy was out asking for trouble, so now he gets to walk away while im stuck with this? how the heck is that right?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2012-10-27 13:04:10 UTC
Tetsuigablm wrote:
to be honest yes it is unfair, and i still think its wrong, the whole idea behind raising the prices was to prevent people from keeping wars up forever, right?
Nah. The price raise was to add a bit of disincentive to starting wars. The mutual war mechanic was retained to ensure that wars could be kept alive forever at no cost.
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#78 - 2012-10-27 13:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Tippia wrote:
[Again, the entire point of making a war mutual is to lock the aggressor into a war when he wants to get out of it, and reforming a corp has a long history of being an entirely accepted way out of undesired wars. If they won't accept a surrender out of spite, then tough — other means are still available to you (including trying again but with a higher incentive for the target to accept the terms).


From what I read, you seem to indicate the current wardec isn't broken, including when the agressor drags the defender into a wardec with decshield (anytime you make a war mutual, you risk yourself being dragged in decshield) In short, mutual wardeccing is best avoided as defender, wich deefats the purpose of mutual wardecs.

As agressor, each time you dec, you risk getting dragged into Decshield, (risk of you wanting to take on a weaker opponent)

As merc, you risk to get dragged in Decshield as well each time you accept a contract (risk of the job) wich can lead to a whole lot of issues. It's why we see so much more throwaway temporary merc corps I guess.

In short, carebears should cheer at Decshield, as they teach everyone the risk of the new wardec mechanisms, eventually leading to a more peaceful highsec, where the only risks exists of ganking & bumping & the occasional wardec (until the new crimewatch system, but as it's still under development, we don't know how much it will eventually affect highsec)

Edit: weaker corps should indeed get some form of protection from big bully corps, I agree there, but the current situation seems flawed. I understand there can never be a perfect solution, but currently players of all ways of life are affected by these Decshield wars. Yes griefers amongst them, but also corps & alliances who wanted to defend themselves from their agressors by turning the war mutual (and get sucked in decshield wars as it was the agressors intent)

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Tetsuigablm
Channel Six News
#79 - 2012-10-27 13:07:39 UTC
Quote:
Nah. The price raise was to add a bit of disincentive to starting wars. The mutual war mechanic was retained to ensure that wars could be kept alive forever at no cost.



That makes no sense though lol, i mean seriously think about it, previously there was no reason to stop a war dec, now the cost alone is prohibitive to do so, why do that, then turn around and make them free.......
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#80 - 2012-10-27 13:08:52 UTC
Tetsuigablm wrote:
to be honest yes it is unfair, and i still think its wrong, the whole idea behind raising the prices was to prevent people from keeping wars up forever, right? that was the REASONING behind it, im not gonna pay 50m a week to troll one guy forever, and this guy was out asking for trouble, so now he gets to walk away while im stuck with this? how the heck is that right?


He only gets to walk away if you don't war dec him again. Mutual wars don't increase the cost of additional wars.

He also walks away with every single war dec that dec shield has, for 1 full week.