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When you see the God of Amarr
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Kalchak
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2012-10-09 22:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalchak
dammit, lost the lot...
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-10-09 22:59:40 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

P.S. Your rampant xenophobia and racism is showing. You know there are plenty of others of all nations who also deny the existence of the Amarrian deity. Why the need to single out my people?

This is simple, because you are primitive uneducated tribals, that have problems even with reading a message, targeted at you. Maybe if you could learn to read someday, and, if you will be very lucky, to comprehend, you wouldn't write nonsence like
Anabella Rella wrote:
Apparently superior technology trumps your invisible, unknowable, unprovable deity.

after I clearly wrote, that it can be seen, and drivels like
Anabella Rella wrote:
Just as an aside, I wonder how your "beliefs" would go over with your people back on Saisio? You sound far more like an Amarrian shill rather than a pragmatic Achur.

after I several times stated that I am not follower of Amarrian religion.
Well, I could give you some money so you could buy textbooks to learn read, but in fact, I'd better use these money to buy more guns to slaughter you and your kin.
Less trouble, really.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Braitai
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-10-10 07:05:53 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
Braitai wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Firstly, God is not the "God of Amarr" - he is the God of everyone, no matter what their bloodline is.

Secondly, He exists independently of human experience.


Now, now, Rodj, I'm sure god can speak for himself, being omnipotent and all.

*snigger*


People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I could poke fun at your magic tattoo, after all.


I don't ascribe to any "magic".
Braitai
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-10-10 07:11:21 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
after I several times stated that I am not follower of Amarrian religion.


I would watch yourself Kim, or one day a true follower of the Amarrian god may try to 'reclaim' you.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-10-10 11:20:37 UTC
Kalchak wrote:
There are no gods, unless you count the immortal capsuleers of our age.

The God of the Amarr faith is simply a way of shifting personal responsibility made large.
What atrocity can you not commit in the name of "God"? What crime can you possibly convict "God" of?
It makes it easier to sleep at night, to ignore the gnawing of a starved conscience, to remind yourself that "God" wills it.
Scaled up to the level of an empire? What horrors a people can commit when all can be laid at the feet of "God", when entire populations can say in a strong, heady voice "This horror was the will of God!".

Of course this is simply fantasy, a delusion raised to protect the weak-minded from taking responsibility for the horrors they commit on a daily basis.

It will ultimately lead to disaster, as the inevitable culture shock tears the very foundations of faith apart. As more and more look to the night sky and realise that no god dwells above, or below.

This then leads to the final realisation that no god dwells within either. All the crimes you have committed cannot be ascribed to some external force.

This is why we pity the Amarr. They ascribe every thought, act, and deed to a mythical entity, that they may wash themselves of the blood they spill.

One day it will destroy them and, thanks to the constant conflict they themselves promote, we will not be able to help them even should we wish it.


Last time I checked, doing bad things in the name of something larger than ourselves is not a plaint unique to the Amarr bloc. I could change just a few words and that statement could have dropped just as easily from the mouth of any Imperial about the Republic, or any Gallentean about the State, or any Caldari about the Federation. We all like to tell ourselves it's someone else's fault after all. No one likes shouldering the responsibility for the lives we take as we go about our buisiness. Far easier to lay it at the feet of some great Cause, whether it's Reclaiming or Liberation or Revenge or Freedom.

I also find it rather interesting to see how you're willing to make judgements about your average citizen of any Empire held world you care to name. Does the market keeper or the shop owner commit horrors? Is the devout scholar or librarian responsible for the oceans of blood? Thier Faith is strong, stronger even than my own, yet to say they are guilty of atrocities is laughable.

And I've brought this point up before. I've met Amarrians, I consider quite a few of them to be my friends. Whilst they do quite strange things at times, I have no hesitation at all in inviting them into a tea house, knowing they will not genfluect to God asking for guidance on whether they want tea or coffee or maybe even, perish the thought, Quafe! Yes, God plays a part in our lives, however he does not guide every decision I make, every thought I have and every deed I perform. He guides quite a few of them yes, and my chaplain wishes he guided rather more of them, however God does not select my filling of sandwich or what flavour drink I shall have, so clearly you are in error there when you state that God guides my 'every choice'
then again, you mentioned Amarrians by name, and I'm not Amarrian... so maybe you should ask them whether God guides them in thier soft drink selection.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Nikotium
Minmatar Star Scrapers
#26 - 2012-10-16 14:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikotium
Diana Kim wrote:
Right before the battle starts, when the enemy is ahead, when the fleets are on standby and waiting for order to open fire, look at faces of Amarrian crusaders. Look at each of them and at all of them, and you will see the Face of God.



Ya'll DO realize that you just said that man is god? And spoutin' them words about how this here god is in all of us, is just another way of sayin' that we all be gods. but, what ya'll fail to remember is that yer god aint done nothing fer us Minmatar folks. i aint ashamed to admit that i would 'gladly' auto pilot a Titan into a white dwarf, with the cargo hold filled to the rims with Amarrians. and i would 'love' to see if this here god would swoop down and rescue your pitiful asses from a fiery death. Get yo head outa yo ass, gurl. ya'll cain't be 'that' stupid.

"Ya'll need to cool yo jets! Aint no need fer all that hate."
Jara Blackwind
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-10-16 21:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jara Blackwind
If the Evil God actually exists in whatever form, it is just one more reason to oppose the Empire.
Romvex
TURN LEFT
#28 - 2012-10-20 20:27:15 UTC
Your implants seem to be faulty and are generating some very serious side effects. I suggest seeing a medical professional immediately.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-10-21 20:17:51 UTC
I don't think it is because of implants. They are minmatars, you see, just primitives. Their small brain simply cannot apprehend how large and mysterious our Universe is. 'Man is God' Hah! With that tiny brain? (and even tinier - minmatar brain...) Peoples are just mere grains of stardust, who are trying to understand themselves, little ants who simply can't figure how the whole hive works, because mind of the hive is billion times more complex than a brain of a single human.
Evil God... how God can be evil? How can you understand Him at all? Just any god, compared to human. Well, if you want to consider yourself a 'god', it is your right, like a tiny bug who imagines himself human, until real human steps and squashes it.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Romvex
TURN LEFT
#30 - 2012-10-21 20:27:01 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
I don't think it is because of implants. They are minmatars, you see, just primitives. Their small brain simply cannot apprehend how large and mysterious our Universe is. 'Man is God' Hah! With that tiny brain? (and even tinier - minmatar brain...) Peoples are just mere grains of stardust, who are trying to understand themselves, little ants who simply can't figure how the whole hive works, because mind of the hive is billion times more complex than a brain of a single human.
Evil God... how God can be evil? How can you understand Him at all? Just any god, compared to human. Well, if you want to consider yourself a 'god', it is your right, like a tiny bug who imagines himself human, until real human steps and squashes it.

I see both sides of the equation with this argument, Although i do question the bug analogy. Lets say the real human steps on the bug. This bug has access to modern medical technology, and is essentially immortal. He has all eternity to advance his technology, no matter how many times the human steps on him. Eventually, he will be able to challenge the human, and take his throne.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#31 - 2012-10-26 07:04:35 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
These days, you sound more Amarrian than Caldari.


It's called "cultural exchange," and it helps make our alliance even stronger.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-10-26 07:35:24 UTC
Romvex wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I don't think it is because of implants. They are minmatars, you see, just primitives. Their small brain simply cannot apprehend how large and mysterious our Universe is. 'Man is God' Hah! With that tiny brain? (and even tinier - minmatar brain...) Peoples are just mere grains of stardust, who are trying to understand themselves, little ants who simply can't figure how the whole hive works, because mind of the hive is billion times more complex than a brain of a single human.
Evil God... how God can be evil? How can you understand Him at all? Just any god, compared to human. Well, if you want to consider yourself a 'god', it is your right, like a tiny bug who imagines himself human, until real human steps and squashes it.

I see both sides of the equation with this argument, Although i do question the bug analogy. Lets say the real human steps on the bug. This bug has access to modern medical technology, and is essentially immortal. He has all eternity to advance his technology, no matter how many times the human steps on him. Eventually, he will be able to challenge the human, and take his throne.

My main idea of this analogy was comparison of a bug and human disregarding any medical advances. Just compare brain size of a bug and human, even if the bug were... well, immortal, and human were immortal too, there's no chance bug could take human's throne, it would be just being squashed all the time even without understanding what hit it (because of bug's mind size).
And if, say, I found and immortal bug, I'd put him into a can with insecticide and will be looking as he's dying again and again. But, well, it won't happen, and so I do disagree with your questioning of bug analogy. Simply because true immortality is unachievable for humans. Everything in this world has its beginning and its end, and we are parts of it.
Even we, capsuleers are dying much more often than so-called 'baseliners'. Have you ever thought about what happens when your clone dies? This is simple, your personality dies with him. Whatever you call conscience, soul, or just 'yourself', it all will be gone when your clone dies. Your new clone will be new conscience, still holding your memories, your personality. But it won't be you anymore. It will be a copy of yourself, full, perfect copy, with all your behaviors, emotions, hopes and dreams. And when your current clone will be dead, you, as you think about yourself, will be already with your ancestors (or maybe with numerous your previous clones, who passed away).
This is a way of a combat pilot: you are always prepared for death. I know that I may not see tomorrow and I live with it. Tales about immortality are just immature dreams. When you accept death, you will know that you are not a child anymore.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#33 - 2012-10-26 14:21:52 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Even we, capsuleers are dying much more often than so-called 'baseliners'. Have you ever thought about what happens when your clone dies? This is simple, your personality dies with him. Whatever you call conscience, soul, or just 'yourself', it all will be gone when your clone dies. Your new clone will be new conscience, still holding your memories, your personality. But it won't be you anymore. It will be a copy of yourself, full, perfect copy, with all your behaviors, emotions, hopes and dreams. And when your current clone will be dead, you, as you think about yourself, will be already with your ancestors (or maybe with numerous your previous clones, who passed away).
This is a way of a combat pilot: you are always prepared for death. I know that I may not see tomorrow and I live with it. Tales about immortality are just immature dreams. When you accept death, you will know that you are not a child anymore.


I wish more of us realized this, Kim-haani. We are not immortals, and each of our deaths are real. I am not the same person as the clone that follows me, and the only reason I have for thinking I may continue is that my clone shares my goals and most of my memories. We call ourselves immortals as shorthand, and to inflate our egos, but it is not so. You know these things all too well, Diana, and I wish more did.

Meditate upon death, upon the sword's stroke, upon the cold black void beyond our hulls. On the trickle of the last breath from one's throat, and the molten tritanium rain that splits hulls and sears bodies. If you think on these things daily, when death finally comes to take you it will not be alarming, and you can face your ending with dignity. This is the way of the warrior as dictated by our ancestors.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#34 - 2012-10-26 14:40:58 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Even we, capsuleers are dying much more often than so-called 'baseliners'. Have you ever thought about what happens when your clone dies? This is simple, your personality dies with him. Whatever you call conscience, soul, or just 'yourself', it all will be gone when your clone dies. Your new clone will be new conscience, still holding your memories, your personality. But it won't be you anymore. It will be a copy of yourself, full, perfect copy, with all your behaviors, emotions, hopes and dreams. And when your current clone will be dead, you, as you think about yourself, will be already with your ancestors (or maybe with numerous your previous clones, who passed away).
This is a way of a combat pilot: you are always prepared for death. I know that I may not see tomorrow and I live with it. Tales about immortality are just immature dreams. When you accept death, you will know that you are not a child anymore.


I wish more of us realized this, Kim-haani. We are not immortals, and each of our deaths are real. I am not the same person as the clone that follows me, and the only reason I have for thinking I may continue is that my clone shares my goals and most of my memories. We call ourselves immortals as shorthand, and to inflate our egos, but it is not so. You know these things all too well, Diana, and I wish more did.

Meditate upon death, upon the sword's stroke, upon the cold black void beyond our hulls. On the trickle of the last breath from one's throat, and the molten tritanium rain that splits hulls and sears bodies. If you think on these things daily, when death finally comes to take you it will not be alarming, and you can face your ending with dignity. This is the way of the warrior as dictated by our ancestors.


Much as I hate to do this, I cannot disagree more strongly with this. Death is a physical process that afflicts our bodies time and time again, but humanity has finally realized that we are not our bodies, and therefore death is more of a temporary affliction than the world ending event it once was.

Evidence does not indicate that we lose anything of importance upon death, except in the very, very rare circumstances that we do not transcribe correctly.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#35 - 2012-10-26 15:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Vikarion wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
...


These days, you sound more Amarrian than Caldari.

By the way, it should be noted that the Caldari are mostly atheist or animist. It's unlikely that our current amicable relationship with the Amarr will last.


Atheist? Animist? Apparently we were raised in different creches. Such a statement is as simplistic and uninformed as many I have seen by the Gallente. The universe is alive with animistic forces, to be sure. But, if you imply the majority of these forces are driven and given birth by chaos theory or simple chance, you need to visit some of the many temples and monastaries in Caldari space...

You should spend less time studying weapons and electronics and a bit more discovering your heritage.

And loath as I am to admit it, Tiberius, I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with you on the above. I am who I am. I have lost little and gained much through the cloning process. To think I am simply a copy of some past being I have supplanted in a copycat existence of vicarious and false longing for subjective reality is absurd.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#36 - 2012-10-26 15:44:20 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Much as I hate to do this, I cannot disagree more strongly with this. Death is a physical process that afflicts our bodies time and time again, but humanity has finally realized that we are not our bodies, and therefore death is more of a temporary affliction than the world ending event it once was.

Evidence does not indicate that we lose anything of importance upon death, except in the very, very rare circumstances that we do not transcribe correctly.


You say that we (our mental processes) are not our bodies? I'm afraid I've had far too many brain surgeries to agree with you on that. What happens to our bodies also happens to us. Clones are copies - very close copies, but they are a discontinuous event. We don't know a lot about consciousness-as-itself, but there's no reason to believe that it can survive a discontinuity.

But I understand what you mean, and to be honest, we are very deep into philosophical territory right now. It's hardly my strong suit. Placing you and your clone side-by-side, external observation couldn't find a meaningful difference between the two. Some call this "the same person," I call it a copy. It's semantics.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#37 - 2012-10-26 16:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
True, and semantics are very important to the cognitive process and the belief system.. I simply "choose" to maintain a more symbolic and meaningful approach to my existence. If I didn't, you and every other human would be a target and the EOM would reflect my opinion of the "worth" of humanity as a whole.

By your own experience and belief system, you assume some importance to your own existence that precludes the worth of the "survival of the fittest" mentality of an aetheist. Or you are a narcosistic megalomaniac of extreme prejudice lost in your own self delusional template of importance. One who dismisses logic and sensibility in favor of hedonism or anarchism.. You are a fallable creation who deserves extinction..

(OOC, not sure if that example you provide is in or out of character, if it is OOC, you have my regards to your health.. I recently survived a heart attack and it has caused me to wax philisophical, if it's in character, my cruelty stands..Twisted)

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#38 - 2012-10-26 16:22:43 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
True, and semantics are very important to the cognitive process and the belief system.. I simply "choose" to maintain a more symbolic and meaningful approach to my existence. If I didn't, you and every other human would be a target and the EOM would reflect my opinion of the "worth" of humanity as a whole.

By your own experience and belief system, you assume some importance to your own existence that precludes the worth of the "survival of the fittest" mentality of an aetheist. Or you are a narcosistic megalomaniac of extreme prejudice lost in your own self delusional template of importance. One who dismisses logic and sensibility in favor of hedonism or anarchism..

(OOC, not sure if that example you provide is in or out of character, if it is OOC, you have my regards to your health.. I recently survived a heart attack and it has caused me to wax philisophical, if it's in character, my cruelty stands..Twisted)


What?

I'm going to give you a tip. Stop trying to sound so smart. Cut back on the five dollar words. State your argument clearly and concisely, and put your poetry into the function of the argument rather than in the building blocks of the premises and conclusions.

I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say here, other than to say that Darwinism tends to fall apart when you throw the word social in front of it.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#39 - 2012-10-26 16:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
If you don't believe in any greater meaning to your existence than some wild chance occurence, your an idiot to to fight to survive a naturally occuring demise, such as a brain tumour. It is illogical and wastes resources better spent on the sound and healthy living beings around you. You must hold some foolish idea of your own importance in the grander scheme that is driven by ego alone, as no such predestined need for you exists. Die and get it over with. You will contribute in a better way to the biomass banks.

Clearer?P

As stated, I am still unsure if the brain surgery thing is in or out of character. I was trying to couch my reply in a less callous way in case it was a real life example. This is an in character forum, but, the format is not always followed explicitly... As you so helpfully demonstrate with your "five dollar" remark..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#40 - 2012-10-26 16:53:36 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
If you don't believe in any greater meaning to your existence than some wild chance occurence, your an idiot to to fight to survive a naturally occuring demise, such as a brain tumour. It is illogical and wastes resources better spent on the sound and healthy living beings around you. You must hold some foolish idea of your own importance in the grander scheme that is driven by ego alone, as no such predestined need for you exists. Die and get it over with.

Clearer?P


A little?

If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that someone holding to the idea that we are not imbued from birth with meaning means that they should not seek to create that meaning during the course of their life, and therefore should just, essentially, lay down in the street and die?

Is that correct? Do you require that this meaning be divulged by an intelligent outside agency?

If so, that seems a little defeatist to me. I hold to the idea that human beings are both special and non-special. So far, we are the only bearers of sapience (or at least were. The Rogue Drones are arguably there, now), but there is nothing mystical or special about that condition. It can be created (as with the drones, again), broken, repaired, copied.

My observations have been that sapience is a condition of intelligence, and not a cause. It is a property of the data in the mind and not of the physical shell itself, and with all due respect to my friend Scherezad (and indeed it is truly respect because I understand her particular condition better than most) it is the information in our heads that makes us who and what we are, and not the particular shell it is in. If the information in her head had been copied to some other vessel prior to her accident, I am reasonably confident that she could be restored to near perfect functionality.

As it stands, it was not, and that means that particular collection of information no longer exists, and so it definitely was what she calls a discontinuity event.

To bring it back to what I perceive your point to be, though, she has certainly ceased the lot life has given her. I know of no more cheerful, contented capsuleer than Scherezad. She has taken it upon herself to craft her own meaning, her own place, and to build her life out of unfortunate circumstance. Meaning, Mr. Dracor, is crafted. It does not exist as an inherent function.