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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5261 - 2012-10-25 17:49:34 UTC
MIrple wrote:


1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 51143
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 32683
3 425mm AutoCannon II 28691
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21287
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 21179
6 425mm Railgun II 20686
7 200mm AutoCannon II 19103
8 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 17453
9 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 14913
10 150mm Light AutoCannon II 14410
11 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 12537
12 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 12433
13 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 11547
14 Light Neutron Blaster II 10947
15 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10576
16 1400mm Prototype Siege Cannon 9095
17 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun 8406
18 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I 7825
19 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7257
20 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 7169


I highlighted the Caldari Large Weapon systems. there are 4 in the top 20 or 20% of them yeah thats total crap.


Its nice you did highlight weapon systems which can be fitted on large Caldari hulls and the Naga. What you missed is, they will also be fitted on other hulls, Gallente use hybrids a lot too ;) and Torps are fitted on bombers. Do you really think a single Caldari BS was fitted with meta 4 Torp launchers and doing a kill?

Meta 4 Torps are used because bombers might have a hard time fitting t2s, and because bomber pilots dont feel like training too much for missiles ... funny thing is Torps and 1400mm Arty meta 4 are the only non t2-systems there. Thats most probably because they are both used by pilots of other races (=not their signature weapon) or fitting issues (Torps with the bombers, 1400mm on non-Matar BS).
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5262 - 2012-10-25 17:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cazador 64
MIrple wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 51143
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 32683
3 425mm AutoCannon II 28691
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21287
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 21179
6 425mm Railgun II 20686
7 200mm AutoCannon II 19103
8 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 17453
9 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 14913
10 150mm Light AutoCannon II 14410
11 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 12537
12 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 12433
13 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 11547
14 Light Neutron Blaster II 10947
15 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10576
16 1400mm Prototype Siege Cannon 9095
17 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun 8406
18 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I 7825
19 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7257
20 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 7169


Projectile total 171032
Hybrid total 62162
Laser total 42466
Missile total 63680

Speaking of something is "out of line" and "needs balance" ... Roll

And remember please, 12k of the missiles are not Caldari ships mostly, but Bombers which are pretty ok balanced over all 4 races.


And this was my point. We have ONE missile system to represent the entire top 20 of all weapons system.
I think it is pretty fair for it to be on top as missiles as a whole is way under represented when you total everything out.
It is simply amazing how you can throw cold hard facts right in peoples face and they will deny it to the very end.
Reminds me of the stubborn mule from family guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

Everyone wanted to throw the we can't balance around PVE in my face so I come up with some PVP numbers and yet people do not recognize how much missiles are out of whack and way under powered and under used.
I submitted to the whole we can't judge on PVE and yet I still see no rational explanation for this clearly blatant neglect for the Caldari pilot and no suggestions other then retraining has been given.

I said it once before it's total bullshit and no one is willing to step up to the plate swallow some pride and admit it.

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Eh?

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 51107
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 32665

And how many other medium weapons get a look in?


Ok fair enough but how many Caldari large systems "get a look in" ??
Oh thats right basically NONE. This is exactly what I mean how in your right mind are you going to try to make this a valid argument? We have one med weapon system and basically basically zero large (as stated those torps are not all Caldari)
So if we remove HML from the top 20 by nerfing it into the ground then putting a bullet in its head for good measure Caldari missile ships have nothing at all Caldari gets zero "look ins" as you called it.

Let me ask you this how many of you are training into cruise or torp for caldari because of this so called buff?
It will not even make a dent in these numbers and they will not even break the top 20.


That's more melodrama than I can take at this time in the morning.

If 10% is game breaking for you, I respectfully suggest you're doing it wrong.


I highlighted the Caldari Large Weapon systems. there are 4 in the top 20 or 20% of them yeah thats total crap.


How many are Large missiles? Torps? as said before they are fitted across all races and I am more then willing to be zerp pf those are Caldari BS torp boats.

The Logic behind that HML nerf was they are so far ahead of the pack on the top 20 that it's clear they need to be brought into check.
By this logic Projectiles should be whacked by the nerf bat also. They are 3:1 when compared to other weapons systems they are clearly out of balance and should be brought into line with other weapons systems.

Yeah Large Missiles are betting a very small buff but they are nominal at best. They will still not be used as there is no good Hulls to put them on for PVP.
I didn't think I had to spell it out that when I said Caldari I was Talking about Missile Caldari.
**From here on out when I say Caldari I am strictly talking about Missile boats.**

In an earlier post I stated that if the HML needs to be nerfed to be brought into line then CCP needs to give more options to the Caldari Missile Pilot this includes BS or a rework of the entire missiles system (no this is not a reowork its a big slap in the face to HML tengu/drake pilots and the buff is complete crap as there will still be no good reason to use them)

Tl:DR CCP should not be nerfing Caldari Missile pilots until they have a fix on how they can implement other ways for Caldari missile Pilots to be useful. and nerf projectiles its logic
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5263 - 2012-10-25 17:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cazador 64
Odd I typed out a reply and it came up as a blank post .
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5264 - 2012-10-25 17:55:10 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:

Ok fair enough but how many Caldari large systems "get a look in" ??
Oh thats right basically NONE. This is exactly what I mean how in your right mind are you going to try to make this a valid argument? We have one med weapon system and basically basically zero large (as stated those torps are not all Caldari)
So if we remove HML from the top 20 by nerfing it into the ground then putting a bullet in its head for good measure Caldari missile ships have nothing at all Caldari gets zero "look ins" as you called it.

Let me ask you this how many of you are training into cruise or torp for caldari because of this so called buff?
It will not even make a dent in these numbers and they will not even break the top 20.


If you dont understand why "bad large missles" is NOT an argument to keep an overpowered medium missle then you dont understand balancing AT ALL.

Even if every caldari ship was completely useless except the drake, and every weapon system of every size crap except the HML, this would STILL not be a valid reason for not balancing the HML.


Correct. But it damn sure would be a good reason to delay balancing heavy missiles until you fixed some of these other issues. After all, the game has somehow been chugging along just fine with things just as they are now. The super-powered wtfpwn heavy missiles are not, in fact, particularly overpowered at all. By CCP's own admission they are hitting at best 10% harder than they should. Hardly game breaking.

This goes to the heart of the problem, and the reason this thread is rapidly headed for three-hundred pages. It's not the drake or heavy missiles, it's the relationship CCP has had with their Caldari players. Many Caldari players, thousands of paying customers, were already angry. Rather than address any of these player's issues and concerns, CCP has decided to f*ck with them some more.

I believe CCP is making a serious mistake ignoring these players and their concerns. I believe they need to do some serious damage control before this blows up in their faces.
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5265 - 2012-10-25 18:04:59 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:

Ok fair enough but how many Caldari large systems "get a look in" ??
Oh thats right basically NONE. This is exactly what I mean how in your right mind are you going to try to make this a valid argument? We have one med weapon system and basically basically zero large (as stated those torps are not all Caldari)
So if we remove HML from the top 20 by nerfing it into the ground then putting a bullet in its head for good measure Caldari missile ships have nothing at all Caldari gets zero "look ins" as you called it.

Let me ask you this how many of you are training into cruise or torp for caldari because of this so called buff?
It will not even make a dent in these numbers and they will not even break the top 20.


If you dont understand why "bad large missles" is NOT an argument to keep an overpowered medium missle then you dont understand balancing AT ALL.

Even if every caldari ship was completely useless except the drake, and every weapon system of every size crap except the HML, this would STILL not be a valid reason for not balancing the HML.


Correct. But it damn sure would be a good reason to delay balancing heavy missiles until you fixed some of these other issues. After all, the game has somehow been chugging along just fine with things just as they are now. The super-powered wtfpwn heavy missiles are not, in fact, particularly overpowered at all. By CCP's own admission they are hitting at best 10% harder than they should. Hardly game breaking.

This goes to the heart of the problem, and the reason this thread is rapidly headed for three-hundred pages. It's not the drake or heavy missiles, it's the relationship CCP has had with their Caldari players. Many Caldari players, thousands of paying customers, were already angry. Rather than address any of these player's issues and concerns, CCP has decided to f*ck with them some more.

I believe CCP is making a serious mistake ignoring these players and their concerns. I believe they need to do some serious damage control before this blows up in their faces.


And this one hundred billion times over this !!
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5266 - 2012-10-25 18:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: OT Smithers
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


When Caldari pilots noticed that there's actually drones in game? All Tengu pilots have said that drones are just way too annoying and good thing is that they don't need them.

I would still need more options to enhance missile performance through modules. You know like you get tracking computers and tracking enhancers for turrets. Currently there's nothing for missiles.


A heavy missile ship has no way to remove other drones or fast tackle other than drones of it's own. The Drake, obviously, has these drones, and it's tough enough to ignore frigates and AFs for a little while at least. Cruisers like the Caracal do not have this option, they cannot kill enemy drones or frigates and they cannot tank them. A full flight of light drones would make the Caracal more versatile while not significantly adding to it's actual combat dps (as it is probably safe to assume that the Caracal pilot will usually be fighting at the limits of disruptor range or beyond.

I think the latest changes to the Caracal, the new speed and lowered mass, will make it a decent ship. It won't NEED those drones, but the addition of them would change it from decent to good. As it stands the Bellicose, thanks to it's higher speed and drones, is the better option in missile cruisers.

As for the other mods, the problem here is that missiles are currently "balanced" around not needing them. They do the damage they do with the assumption that players will fit so many BCUs, and in general they don't have the low or mid slots for added modules.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5267 - 2012-10-25 18:07:39 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
In any case, this is a done deal. CCP is going to do their thing, and their thing has ALWAYS been to **** Caldari players every chance they get.

Yeah, ALWAYS, like with the Merlin, the condor, and the Rokh, and ECM... Oh wait !

And loot at the future Caracal and Moa...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5268 - 2012-10-25 18:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Cazador 64 wrote:


Tl:DR CCP should not be nerfing Caldari Missile pilots until they have a fix on how they can implement other ways for Caldari missile Pilots to be useful. and nerf projectiles its logic


yeah, dnt nerf HML's until other missiles are more useful and there are concrete changes to caldari ships in the works...oh wait

edit- totally stole my trolling idea ^^

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5269 - 2012-10-25 18:13:39 UTC
I would say that Projectile weapons are not to blame but Tracking Enhancers. The 30% bonus to falloff is to much. If these are fixed I think that Projectiles will fall back into the correct position.

As to the 4 weapon systems that Caldari BS can fit. Yes some are fit to BC and to Gallente Hulls. What I am trying to point out is Caldari do have great ships that can support hybrid guns. Try playing Gallente as only a drone race with no gunnery skills. It doesn't work. Caldari pilots need to train up their other weapon system that is a fact.

Fact the Scorp and the Rohk are great ships. Raven needs some work but having 2 working battle ships is not bad.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5270 - 2012-10-25 18:14:56 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
In any case, this is a done deal. CCP is going to do their thing, and their thing has ALWAYS been to **** Caldari players every chance they get.

Yeah, ALWAYS, like with the Merlin, the condor, and the Rokh, and ECM... Oh wait !

And loot at the future Caracal and Moa...



The Rokh was not really hot until hybrids have been buffed. It is decent now, but the crosstrain issues with missiles to turrets have been mentioned often enough now that even you should have understood this problem.

And the new Moa? You must be kidding, again. Or your understanding of this game is even worse than I thought it is. The Moa is hardly a reason to go for Caldari.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5271 - 2012-10-25 18:20:55 UTC
MIrple wrote:
I would say that Projectile weapons are not to blame but Tracking Enhancers. The 30% bonus to falloff is to much. If these are fixed I think that Projectiles will fall back into the correct position.

As to the 4 weapon systems that Caldari BS can fit. Yes some are fit to BC and to Gallente Hulls. What I am trying to point out is Caldari do have great ships that can support hybrid guns. Try playing Gallente as only a drone race with no gunnery skills. It doesn't work. Caldari pilots need to train up their other weapon system that is a fact.

Fact the Scorp and the Rohk are great ships. Raven needs some work but having 2 working battle ships is not bad.


One of them is ECM and the other a fleet ship. Where are the options other races do have? I dont see them, and so do my Caldari friends.

I never said btw that the hybrid ships for Caldari do all suck, but the signature weapon for Caldari is not mainly hybrids but missiles. And the missile options suck except Drake / HML and Tengu / HML. You cant ignore this fact or cure it with "but you have to train hybrids". I could as well say train for Drake and HML if you feel they are so much out of line. Whats happening on the server shows the Drake / HML is not so much out of line, else it would be the only thing you see. The numbers show there are way more projectile ships, so its safe to say the Drake doesnt seem to break this game.

With that TE bonus thing I do agree, I said from the start when it was introduced this would bring stuff out of line, simply because no one else has such a huge falloff. Its a bit like the problem we have with balancing missiles, which do have constant damage (on paper ;) ) over all their range.

We will see when this will get adressed .. and to Fozzie: read what OT Smithers said again and again - he is right. Be careful, you might start something which you cant stop anymore ...
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5272 - 2012-10-25 18:21:03 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
In any case, this is a done deal. CCP is going to do their thing, and their thing has ALWAYS been to **** Caldari players every chance they get.

Yeah, ALWAYS, like with the Merlin, the condor, and the Rokh, and ECM... Oh wait !

And loot at the future Caracal and Moa...



The Rokh was not really hot until hybrids have been buffed. It is decent now, but the crosstrain issues with missiles to turrets have been mentioned often enough now that even you should have understood this problem.

And the new Moa? You must be kidding, again. Or your understanding of this game is even worse than I thought it is. The Moa is hardly a reason to go for Caldari.


The Hybrid buff happened a year ago. How long must we keep saying well they were **** until they got buffed its not like it just happened.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5273 - 2012-10-25 18:27:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
In any case, this is a done deal. CCP is going to do their thing, and their thing has ALWAYS been to **** Caldari players every chance they get.

Yeah, ALWAYS, like with the Merlin, the condor, and the Rokh, and ECM... Oh wait !

And loot at the future Caracal and Moa...



Perception and history matter.

If you kick your dog every day for a year, it is NEVER going to stop flinching when you reach for it, even when this time you are trying to give in a bone. Here, however, we are not talking about pets, but people. Unlike pets, Caldari players can cancel their accounts and find someone who won't keep kicking them. They can also learn to trust again. Sadly, this time CCP has decided to give them another boot to the head.

Now you might not see the Caldari problem. I get that. And you are in great company, because CCP doesn't see the problem either. But trust me on this, whether you (or they) understand it or not, it's there, it's real, and it's serious.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5274 - 2012-10-25 18:30:25 UTC
MIrple wrote:


As to the 4 weapon systems that Caldari BS can fit. Yes some are fit to BC and to Gallente Hulls. What I am trying to point out is Caldari do have great ships that can support hybrid guns. Try playing Gallente as only a drone race with no gunnery skills. It doesn't work. Caldari pilots need to train up their other weapon system that is a fact.

Fact the Scorp and the Rohk are great ships. Raven needs some work but having 2 working battle ships is not bad.


this^

where all the other races have to skill various tanks and weapon systems to be effective, caldari have become used to getting everything from one weapon system and one tank system.

it is the norm to cross train to other races and to use other weapon systems. it gives u the versatility to adapt. u dont have to, as this is a sand box, but it'll give u an advantage.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5275 - 2012-10-25 18:46:32 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:


Tl:DR CCP should not be nerfing Caldari Missile pilots until they have a fix on how they can implement other ways for Caldari missile Pilots to be useful. and nerf projectiles its logic


yeah, dnt nerf HML's until other missiles are more useful and there are concrete changes to caldari ships in the works...oh wait

edit- totally stole my trolling idea ^^


I hear you my friend.

In any case, these changes are going to go live. My hope is that anger over this gets lost in the excitement of the other positive changes, and not too many people cancel.

OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5276 - 2012-10-25 18:49:38 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Odd I typed out a reply and it came up as a blank post .


You need to ALWAYS copy your entire reply before posting it as the forums tend to eat them. Annoying, but there it is.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5277 - 2012-10-25 18:54:00 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:


Now you might not see the Caldari problem. I get that. And you are in great company, because CCP doesn't see the problem either. But trust me on this, whether you (or they) understand it or not, it's there, it's real, and it's serious.


Amen to that. Please listen to him Fozzie.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5278 - 2012-10-25 18:58:22 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
And the new Moa? You must be kidding, again. Or your understanding of this game is even worse than I thought it is. The Moa is hardly a reason to go for Caldari.

I said the future Moa.

And caldari definitly don't need more reason to skill for them, the falcon is certainly a good proportion of all alt in game already, and joining some alliances in nullsec, you *have to* skill for drake, tengu or rokh.
Lili Lu
#5279 - 2012-10-25 18:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
OT Smithers wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
In any case, this is a done deal. CCP is going to do their thing, and their thing has ALWAYS been to **** Caldari players every chance they get.

Yeah, ALWAYS, like with the Merlin, the condor, and the Rokh, and ECM... Oh wait !

And loot at the future Caracal and Moa...



Perception and history matter.

If you kick your dog every day for a year, it is NEVER going to stop flinching when you reach for it, even when this time you are trying to give in a bone. Here, however, we are not talking about pets, but people. Unlike pets, Caldari players can cancel their accounts and find someone who won't keep kicking them. They can also learn to trust again. Sadly, this time CCP has decided to give them another boot to the head.

Now you might not see the Caldari problem. I get that. And you are in great company, because CCP doesn't see the problem either. But trust me on this, whether you (or they) understand it or not, it's there, it's real, and it's serious.


OT please stop sounding like Damar. I don't want to see a tinfoil hat on you every time you post. Sad

Caldari has been doing fine and will still be doing fine after this expansion. Since I started this game Caldari has never been on the bottom for pvp. It's never really been on the top (except for those two overused ships), but also not the bottom. Amarr was. Then Minmatar, yes minmatar, was before the projectile changes. Currently it is Gallente, even after the hybrid changes. And for pve Caldari has usually been first or at worst second.

But lots of changes have recently come and are set to happen. The new drone damage mods, ASBs, tech II plate stat adjustments, and beginnings of tiericide have been changing things. Micro jump drives are coming, the buffs to short range missiles, continued tiericide, TC/TE/TD changes, changes to RAHs, even some new ships. We really don't know the outcome at this time. However, the current kiting strategies may not be as powerful anymore. And ships that have been lost in worthless obscurity may come to the fore.

I hope that whatever the landscape looks like after all the changes are in (and there will be some winners and losers) it will be a more diverse landscape. It will be more evenly distributed. It will be less in need of radical overhauls and more in need of minor tweaking. And, anyway, it can never, and should never remain stagnant. The day that happens is the day subscriptions definitely start to decline.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5280 - 2012-10-25 19:24:26 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
And the new Moa? You must be kidding, again. Or your understanding of this game is even worse than I thought it is. The Moa is hardly a reason to go for Caldari.

I said the future Moa.

And caldari definitly don't need more reason to skill for them, the falcon is certainly a good proportion of all alt in game already, and joining some alliances in nullsec, you *have to* skill for drake, tengu or rokh.


The future Moa? Compare it to the future Ruppy ... and Falcon was OP, agreed. It is not anymore for quite a while.