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Call For Discussion : CSM Voting Reform

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Pipa Porto
#901 - 2012-10-10 15:41:39 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

--- Assume standard STV system, where players designate their own votes: How do you reassign overvotes fairly? For example, suppose Trebor received 1000k overvotes.... which of his 1000 voters' votes get reassigned? Is it random, is it a FIFO or LIFO system? And why does anyone get their votes reassigned?? Everyone that voted for trebor is getting their preferred candidate in, so their votes are perfectly placed!!!!


It's proportional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote#Example

If the candidate has 1000 votes and the bar threshold is 900, the remaining 100 are reassigned in proportion to the second choices of all 1000 votes. At this point, there's no problem with having fractional votes assigned (as in, 1 guy has candidate Z as his 2nd choice, so candidate Z gets .1 vote assigned).


The point of reassigning votes is to better match the preferences of everyone. Not just people with minority held opinions. That's why you reassign surplus votes.



By the way, stop calling Trebor's terrible idea STV-anything. It's not. It's simply his attempt at disenfranchising his political opponents (as he said outright in his OP).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#902 - 2012-10-11 10:53:39 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

--- Assume standard STV system, where players designate their own votes: How do you reassign overvotes fairly? For example, suppose Trebor received 1000k overvotes.... which of his 1000 voters' votes get reassigned? Is it random, is it a FIFO or LIFO system? And why does anyone get their votes reassigned?? Everyone that voted for trebor is getting their preferred candidate in, so their votes are perfectly placed!!!!


It's proportional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote#Example

If the candidate has 1000 votes and the bar threshold is 900, the remaining 100 are reassigned in proportion to the second choices of all 1000 votes. At this point, there's no problem with having fractional votes assigned (as in, 1 guy has candidate Z as his 2nd choice, so candidate Z gets .1 vote assigned).


The point of reassigning votes is to better match the preferences of everyone. Not just people with minority held opinions. That's why you reassign surplus votes.



By the way, stop calling Trebor's terrible idea STV-anything. It's not. It's simply his attempt at disenfranchising his political opponents (as he said outright in his OP).


It's classic STV-Mom-stop-the-bad-mens-voting-for-anyone-except-me-and-my-friends-mom-it's-only-fair
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#903 - 2012-10-24 06:09:59 UTC
What about 'representational votes' , a sort of electoral college if you will... basing your vote's weight on the main sp toon of an account and where it is based out of.

High-Sec
Low-Sec
Null-Sec
Worm Hole

There has to be some mathematical equation to equalize votes for sectors of space that have fewer people in them and thus less representation. Just guessing here but if high sec has the most active accounts followed by null then low then wh space

again just an example:
High sec votes count at 1: 0.5
Null sec votes at 1: 0.75
Low sec votes at 1: 1
Worm Hole votes at 1: 1.25
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#904 - 2012-10-24 06:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Mikaila Penshar wrote:
What about 'representational votes' , a sort of electoral college if you will... basing your vote's weight on the main sp toon of an account and where it is based out of.

High-Sec
Low-Sec
Null-Sec
Worm Hole

There has to be some mathematical equation to equalize votes for sectors of space that have fewer people in them and thus less representation. Just guessing here but if high sec has the most active accounts followed by null then low then wh space

again just an example:
High sec votes count at 1: 0.5
Null sec votes at 1: 0.75
Low sec votes at 1: 1
Worm Hole votes at 1: 1.25

Why should some votes be worth more than others, exactly? And what happens with characters who aren't simply based out of one area of the game?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#905 - 2012-10-24 07:02:51 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Mikaila Penshar wrote:
What about 'representational votes' , a sort of electoral college if you will... basing your vote's weight on the main sp toon of an account and where it is based out of.

High-Sec
Low-Sec
Null-Sec
Worm Hole

There has to be some mathematical equation to equalize votes for sectors of space that have fewer people in them and thus less representation. Just guessing here but if high sec has the most active accounts followed by null then low then wh space

again just an example:
High sec votes count at 1: 0.5
Null sec votes at 1: 0.75
Low sec votes at 1: 1
Worm Hole votes at 1: 1.25

Why should some votes be worth more than others, exactly? And what happens with characters who aren't simply based out of one area of the game?


It's a different philosophy of representation- votes where there are many people should carry less weight so that those voters in lower population densities can also be heard. It does one thing- level the playing field. As for your second question- there will always be a place where one spends more time... it can be calculated.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#906 - 2012-10-24 07:06:29 UTC
Yes, let's do that so the hisec pubbies can whine even harder about nullsec taking over the CSM.

Awesome idea.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#907 - 2012-10-24 07:59:27 UTC
How about people just accept that there are no barriers whatsoever to voting, and pretty trivial barriers to entering the race, and consequently the result we get is the result that's desired by people who actually spend the 30 damb seconds required to vote, even if you personally think that result "isn't representative" of this sec or that sec or underpants gnomes?

In CSM 7, a prospective candidate needed less than 1% of the eligible votes to get elected to the CSM. If you can't get even one percent of the electorate to briefly twitch a finger in order to vote for you, then you might need to consider that, no matter how much you clothe yourself in the colors of "hi-sec" or "miners" or whatever else bandwagon you jumped on, you're simply not a candidate that people want representing them all that much.

Sorry if this fact hurts your precious e-feelings, but all the crying in the world for CCP to make it so that everyone wins and gets a prize won't change it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#908 - 2012-10-24 20:24:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
How about people just accept that there are no barriers whatsoever to voting, and pretty trivial barriers to entering the race, and consequently the result we get is the result that's desired by people who actually spend the 30 damb seconds required to vote, even if you personally think that result "isn't representative" of this sec or that sec or underpants gnomes?

In CSM 7, a prospective candidate needed less than 1% of the eligible votes to get elected to the CSM. If you can't get even one percent of the electorate to briefly twitch a finger in order to vote for you, then you might need to consider that, no matter how much you clothe yourself in the colors of "hi-sec" or "miners" or whatever else bandwagon you jumped on, you're simply not a candidate that people want representing them all that much.

Sorry if this fact hurts your precious e-feelings, but all the crying in the world for CCP to make it so that everyone wins and gets a prize won't change it.



lotsawerdz...

thanks for adding to the discussion?

Um, this thread is a place to kick around ideas for revamping the election process, right? What did you add to this discussion... exactly nothing but lotsawerdz... the Fail is strong with you Malcanis
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#909 - 2012-10-24 20:31:34 UTC
yeah wormhole votes need extra weight so that guys like two step, the person who received the most votes out of anyone on the current CSM, have a chance for being represented

good stuff
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#910 - 2012-10-24 20:32:17 UTC
Mikaila Penshar wrote:
Um, this thread is a place to kick around ideas for revamping the election process, right? What did you add to this discussion... exactly nothing but lotsawerdz...

Implying there's merit to the idea of revamping the election process.

Mikaila Penshar wrote:
the Fail is strong with you Malcanis

More often than not, whomever utters this phrase is the one "failing".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#911 - 2012-10-25 06:46:15 UTC
Mikaila Penshar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
How about people just accept that there are no barriers whatsoever to voting, and pretty trivial barriers to entering the race, and consequently the result we get is the result that's desired by people who actually spend the 30 damb seconds required to vote, even if you personally think that result "isn't representative" of this sec or that sec or underpants gnomes?

In CSM 7, a prospective candidate needed less than 1% of the eligible votes to get elected to the CSM. If you can't get even one percent of the electorate to briefly twitch a finger in order to vote for you, then you might need to consider that, no matter how much you clothe yourself in the colors of "hi-sec" or "miners" or whatever else bandwagon you jumped on, you're simply not a candidate that people want representing them all that much.

Sorry if this fact hurts your precious e-feelings, but all the crying in the world for CCP to make it so that everyone wins and gets a prize won't change it.



lotsawerdz...

thanks for adding to the discussion?

Um, this thread is a place to kick around ideas for revamping the election process, right? What did you add to this discussion... exactly nothing but lotsawerdz... the Fail is strong with you Malcanis


My "idea" is that the current system is already pretty good, with it's only failing that it doesnt produce the results that some people feel they're entitled to.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Prince Kobol
#912 - 2012-10-25 10:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Lord Zim wrote:
Yes, let's do that so the hisec pubbies can whine even harder about nullsec taking over the CSM.

Awesome idea.


Thing is.. nullsec already control the CSM and have done for a long long time and for good reason, they are the only group of players who actually really do care about Eve.

If other players outside of null sec alliances cared then they would of formed some sort of group, so far in they haven't.

As I have said before, we should do away with all the pretence and meta gaming and reform the CSM into a advisory group made up of say the top 10 Alliances in Eve.

If you do this then you have a Advisory Council which would be able to draw inspiration from over 44 thousand players
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#913 - 2012-10-25 13:10:37 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
the top 10 Alliances in Eve


Defined by what metric? Members? Sov systems? Killboard stats? NPCs killed? How blue they are to me?

How about we just let players choose who they want to represent them by a free and anonymous vote, and make it so there's enough representative positions that even fairly small minorities can be represented if they're sufficiently motivated.

Well, job done!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#914 - 2012-10-25 13:36:28 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
the top 10 Alliances in Eve


Defined by what metric? Members? Sov systems? Killboard stats? NPCs killed? How blue they are to me?

Make the metrics for CSM memberships the number of macks and orcas killed. It'll be awesome during election months.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Prince Kobol
#915 - 2012-10-25 14:23:07 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
the top 10 Alliances in Eve


Defined by what metric? Members? Sov systems? Killboard stats? NPCs killed? How blue they are to me?

Make the metrics for CSM memberships the number of macks and orcas killed. It'll be awesome during election months.


Damn that would be funny :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#916 - 2012-10-25 14:57:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
the top 10 Alliances in Eve


Defined by what metric? Members? Sov systems? Killboard stats? NPCs killed? How blue they are to me?

Make the metrics for CSM memberships the number of macks and orcas killed. It'll be awesome during election months.


Your transparent attempt to disenfranchise the freighter ganking community has fooled no-one. Why do you hate democracy so much?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#917 - 2012-10-25 15:09:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
the top 10 Alliances in Eve


Defined by what metric? Members? Sov systems? Killboard stats? NPCs killed? How blue they are to me?

Make the metrics for CSM memberships the number of macks and orcas killed. It'll be awesome during election months.


Your transparent attempt to disenfranchise the freighter ganking community has fooled no-one. Why do you hate democracy so much?

I cannot possibly be asked to support such a huge isk sink as freighter ganking.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#918 - 2012-10-25 15:19:30 UTC
NEW IDEA.... just for sh!ts and giggles... current CSM members must pass the torch by nominating their successors and we the populace of New Eden vote for the changes we want made. A CSM member may only ever serve two terms- be they consecutive or spaced apart. Every time we log in we are presented with a polling question that must be answered, thus generating a consensus of ideas, for what is wanted, or needed, or hated, or whatever.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#919 - 2012-10-26 11:32:59 UTC
Mikaila Penshar wrote:
What about 'representational votes' , a sort of electoral college if you will... basing your vote's weight on the main sp toon of an account and where it is based out of.

High-Sec
Low-Sec
Null-Sec
Worm Hole

There has to be some mathematical equation to equalize votes for sectors of space that have fewer people in them and thus less representation. Just guessing here but if high sec has the most active accounts followed by null then low then wh space

again just an example:
High sec votes count at 1: 0.5
Null sec votes at 1: 0.75
Low sec votes at 1: 1
Worm Hole votes at 1: 1.25



So you're saying nullsec (and ls / whs) need more representation than they have? The highsec bears are going to love that idea lol
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#920 - 2012-10-29 20:15:21 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Mikaila Penshar wrote:
What about 'representational votes' , a sort of electoral college if you will... basing your vote's weight on the main sp toon of an account and where it is based out of.

High-Sec
Low-Sec
Null-Sec
Worm Hole

There has to be some mathematical equation to equalize votes for sectors of space that have fewer people in them and thus less representation. Just guessing here but if high sec has the most active accounts followed by null then low then wh space

again just an example:
High sec votes count at 1: 0.5
Null sec votes at 1: 0.75
Low sec votes at 1: 1
Worm Hole votes at 1: 1.25



So you're saying nullsec (and ls / whs) need more representation than they have? The highsec bears are going to love that idea lol


I certainly wouldn't put both my mains into a wormhole then cast my vote

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016