Player Features and Ideas Discussion

That's more melodrama than I can take at this time in the morning.

If 10% is game breaking for you, I respectfully suggest you're doing it wrong.

@ Morrigan, I assume you mean the 10% damage nerf? If so, this would neglect the other soft stat nerfs for HML.

But yeah, we cant know if it will kill HML as a working PvP option or not. I think it wont be on top of the list anymore after this change, and I think missiles will be way less in numbers then too. With HML not being on top I can perfectly live. With no other new missile options coming up instead I can live too, but only because I dont rely on missiles :) for game balance it still sucks.

Anyway, we will all have to wait how it works. But dont say there was no one who was concerned before ;)

Working weapon /= most used
Broken weapon /= not as popular as something else

By your logic lasers and especially hybrids are broken.



My reply to "I'm not going to be pvp god anymore! REFUND!" whine.

In what way projectiles are "way out of line"?

These stats don't reveal balance but the opposite ! We are in BALANCE thread. Go away with these UNBALANCE talk please.

Balance would be to remove the over abundance of something and promoting the underuse of the other things. This, and a lot of other things. NOTHING should be the best as you mean it to be : something so powerful it completely outclass it's peers. NOTHING.

If something is underpowered, it should be buffed, and if something is overpowered, it should be nerfed, independantly of anything else.

Cry for nerfing winmatar or projectiles if you want, but DO NOT defend HML OPness in a balance thread !


BTW, comparing the Typhoon to the Raven is a bit unfair : the Typhoon is more a BC than a BS... NO BS is faster than the phoon unless pirate/faction. And it's the first time I see someone complaining about armor tank being better at something than shield tank. This Raven is not trying to be useful BTW, it is trying to be a Typhoon. That approach won't ever work as these ships are the opposite by design : phoon is a minmatar versatile and fast brawler ; raven is a fleet long range sniper.

Try something more caldari, like firing torpedoes at 60km. With the rebalance, they *will* hurt anything larger than a BC. With tackle, they will hurt anything. And you'll better have not to fall in it's faction torpedoes range.

And remember : BS will be rebalanced soon.

Anyway, Raven problem is not a missile problem it seem. Better keep it for another thread.

To Noemi : you are playing with the words and not trying to understand what I'm saying. Missile systems are not missiles. I speak about the weapon system as a whole. You can use all the ammo of a weapon system, you are not stuck with one.

You are melting caldari and missiles. People do learn torp for bombers. People do learn caldari ships for a lot of ships : falcon anyone ? Want a BS ? Here is the Scorpion... You also have the Rokh ; ask PL about where does their Rokh skills come from.

And even after the nerf, tengu will still be a tengu, and drake will still be a drake, and you will have ham.

Duality will have the most recent posted changes, which is indeed the 2.0 version.

Missile systems are the important part, not hybrids. Hybrids requires cross training. The original point was to look at missile representation out of the list, and it is without a doubt compelling to note the only thing really on there besides torps is HML.

I would also think its fair for everyone to agree that torps are only on there due to the stipulation that bombers leverage them, and bombers come in all race/flavors. I won't go so far as to say we can eliminate them, but their context is certainly worth an *asterisk in the above argument due to those facts. They're kind of a niche thing.

Minmatar ships and Autocannons are fine. They are NOT objectively overpowered. There are numerous reasons people fly Minmatar, but I think these are the top four:

1. They have a COMPLETE lineup of solid ships, from Frigate to Battleships. Every class, both T1 and T2, without exception, offers the player a solid option.

2. On paper and in EFT their DPS looks fantastic. People see 600dps from their Hurricane and they get all excited, not realizing that it is only doing that 600dps at 2km -- where they probably weren't hitting anyway. Minmatar ships fight in deep falloff.

3. Minmatar speed and agility allow pilots to engage or disengage more easily. The ability to fight in deep falloff means that they do not need to commit to the fight unless they so choose.

4. When we talk about racial choices we tend to think of people choosing between the four races. However, up until relatively recently the actual choice (among experienced pilots) was between Amarr and Minmatar. Prior to the Hybrid buff the Gallente had serious issues -- and in many ways these issues have still never been addressed. And the Caldari, well, that's the race people train out of.




Possibly. Let's look at medium projectiles and compare them to medium missiles:

Medium Projectile Choices:
180mm AC - lowest fitting, best tracking, lowest range, lowest paper dps. lowest alpha
220mm AC - low fitting, good tracking, moderate range, moderate paper dps, low alpha
425mm AC - moderate fitting, moderate tracking, good range, highest paper dps, moderate alpha
650mm Arty - high fitting, poor tracking, second best range, medium paper dps, high alpha
720mm Arty - highest fitting, worst tracking, best range, medium paper dps, highest alpha

HAM Missiles - Highest fitting, poor "tracking," low range, moderate paper dps, high alpha
Heavy Missiles - moderate fitting, moderate "tracking" high range, moderate paper dps, high alpha

When looked at in this way two things stand out. The first, obviously, is the huge range of weapons choices projectile users have available. They can custom tailor their weapons to match what they are trying to accomplish. They can go for better falloff, better range, better tracking, lower fitting costs... whatever they need, they have a weapon they can go to. This is obviously not true with missiles. There, the choice is between hitting far for a little less damage, or hitting close for a little more damage while paying a higher fitting and tracking cost to do it. Is it any wonder people pick the first option?

The second thing that jumps out is that even given all these choices, most players tend to go with something in the middle. They like the 425's, they like the heavy missiles. They want their ship fitted with the weapons that provide the most options -- the best mix of dps, tracking, and range. Other considerations, like better tracking and close range performance, are secondary.

Obviously all of this ignores the torp and cruise missile statement that you made. No matter how good cruise missiles or torpedos become, because CCP decided not to give the Caldari a T3 BC using missiles, they are not going to be used as much as the medium weapons and hulls. There are obviously lots of reasons for this.

Perhaps, but they are not going to do this.

In any case, this is a done deal. CCP is going to do their thing, and their thing has ALWAYS been to **** Caldari players every chance they get. On the plus side the revised changes to the Caracal (announced this week) go some distance towards improving it. It's going to be faster, it's going to be lighter. It still won't have enough drones, but it does offer Caldari players, finally...

Well, I don't want to go into that here.

Suffice it to say that I am actually considering changing my training plans to improve my missile skills -- something that would have been unthinkable to me just a month ago.