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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Author
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5221 - 2012-10-24 22:57:37 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
For the SP whines : missiles SP won't be wasted unless you are only doing pve.

But EVE does have players who only PVE so they are wasted so again an other person who doesn't think my monthy payment is as good as theirs,
and we have no rights to balanced gameplay



Daichi Yamato wrote:
no, it would be more obvious, easier and more fair to change the incursion rats...lol

OK what do you suggest? A change that will help balance out missiles during incursions so they are not completely worthless?




Daichi Yamato wrote:

u can still use missiles after the patch. maybe if u didnt put every sp u had into missiles and branched out a bit u wouldnt be so hurt by this nerf.

Isn't EVE about specializations? This is to suggest that because I trained into missiles I should be punished in some way?[/quote]




Daichi Yamato wrote:

it wont take
long at all to skill into T2 medium rails and ur tengu has subsystems that support rail fits. all is not lost.

No just 4 months per Tengu pilot to be able to get the T2 and related skills to match what I have in missiles.
Or a other $120 in cash to comp for CCP clearly not knowing how to balance a game.

Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5222 - 2012-10-24 22:57:44 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

but lets face it, the reason ppl are so attached to
missiles is because they thought they could get a weapons system that did everything with a minimal sp investment and they know rails are no where near as good.

Wait what? You just told me to train into rails now you are trying to say missiles are the ultimate weapon systems? Have you ever flown missiles?
People must not remember how badly the drake pilots got laughed at about two years ago.



Daichi Yamato wrote:

this isnt an imbalancing, its actually the balancing. tengu's with powercore multipliers have plenty of grid to fit rails. the fact that they can still use 100mn AB's
whilst still using rails shows they could probably lose some grid.
If HML's are on par with other weapon systems then rail tengu's will become the fashion after this nerf. it doesnt take long to skill to T2 rails.


It most certainly is an imbalance and as I stated above 4 months of training time to get the T2 rails with related skills to match what most tengu pilots have in Missile SP.
And again you just proved my point we are being forced into an other weapons system because our current one is being nerfed into oblivion, how is that not considered being over nerfed?
I do not think you see what you are doing here.
In one breath you are saying that missiles need to be brought into balance,
but with the other you are suggesting changes weapon systems to compensate for the nerf.
Making the other weapon systems more powerful then when compared to post nerf missile systems,
which means that any system post nerf that is more powerful then the missile systems needs to be nerfed and brought into line with
current other systems. (think about this before you respond please)Idea
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5223 - 2012-10-24 23:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
PVE...

Take it as you wish : either you lose the game by choosing the wrong path (and you can leave ; can I have your stuff ?), or be creative and look at what you will be able to do with these missiles buff. Yes, HML are not the only missile launchers in the game, but they are the only ones to be nerfed, all the others are buffed. Especially, you should have a look at some HAM tengu.

BTW, in french, we have an expression I'll try to translate for you : don't put all your eggs in the same bag, or don't complain when the bag fall.

PS : or you can also wait for this weekend and give a try to the futur HML tengu. I bet it won't be that screwed ; sure worse than before, it's a nerf after all, but not that bad.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5224 - 2012-10-24 23:34:35 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:




Daichi Yamato wrote:
no, it would be more obvious, easier and more fair to change the incursion rats...lol

OK what do you suggest? A change that will help balance out missiles during incursions so they are not completely worthless?


the most direct approach would be to blow up their sig radius a bit, and/or remove some smaller ships and put in a few larger ships. they do pretty decent dps regardless of their size. this would make incursions a bit more like missions, something that caldari missile ships excel at. but phrasing it as 'being more like missions' will probably be the undoing of this before it got any momentum.



Cazador 64 wrote:

Isn't EVE about specializations? This is to suggest that because I trained into missiles I should be punished in some way?


no. specialising makes u stronger sooner, but branching out gives u versatility and adaptability. Eve is about both and neither.
specialising is a gamble and as the saying goes 'don't put all ur eggs in one basket'. nerfing always hurts someone, but its those players that are able to adapt that bounce back better.


Cazador 64 wrote:

No just 4 months per Tengu pilot to be able to get the T2 and related skills to match what I have in missiles.
Or a other $120 in cash to comp for CCP clearly not knowing how to balance a game.


$120 u'd have been paying anyways. or would u unsub if u were sticking to missiles?
is this toon just a mission alt that u made so u could get a powerful character with a single missile system that did everything and then switch training to ur main?

Cazador 64 wrote:

Wait what? You just told me to train into rails now you are trying to say missiles are the ultimate weapon systems? Have you ever flown missiles?
People must not remember how badly the drake pilots got laughed at about two years ago.


all my characters can use missiles yeah...have u flown turrets? in particular medium rails, beams or arties?
currently, HML's are the 'ultimate' weapon systems. but if u find that this nerf is too much for u then u can train to rails and see how good HML pilots have had thing so far and why the needed a nerf so badly.

HML's are not bein nerfed into oblivion. they'll still perform better than other LR medium turrets. other weapon systems are not being made more powerful, they are getting a little grid relief; which, if u look at their grid requirements, are ridiculously high.

you also said:
'In one breath you are saying that missiles need to be brought into balance,
but with the other you are suggesting changes weapon systems to compensate for the nerf.'


these are not in-congruent statements...whats the problem? as i've always said, this change is balanced, but if its too much for you then u can train into rails if you think they are going to be so much better

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5225 - 2012-10-25 00:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cazador 64
Daichi Yamato wrote:

$120 u'd have been paying anyways. or would u unsub if u were sticking to missiles?
is this toon just a mission alt that u made so u could get a powerful character with a single missile system that did everything and then switch training to ur main?


No I would not have unsubed I intended to use this time to Train up other things I wanted to do in eve not spend it on an other weapons system.
I have two accounts both Caldari pilots both PVE. I do not have any desire to get into null or low sec as the politics and logistics of it do not appeal to me.
For one reason I do not have the time to deal with it I do not want to spend all my online time doing CTA so I can protect a systems that I am not getting any benefit out of.

So these are my "mains" I started them and they had only the starter SP.
This may not be the place for this statement but I think it's safe to assume some of the people are less sensitive to this nerf either because they bought their character or intend to just buy an other character that fits their needs.
Or simply they made the better choice and didn't pick missiles.
Being I do not support character buying I think it's borderline cheating.

I am not sure if I missed some patch in the last two years+ that made HML over powered? Because I strictly remember being ridiculed for picking missiles because of how inferior they were when compared to other weapons systems.
So here we are two years later and everyone is crying for a HML nerf because they are to powerful.
So when did I miss this patch that overpowered HML??
Or did the caldari pilot simply adjust and tweak and fine tune their play style to become superior?

I hear all this bullshit about yup you just need to adapt and adjust all the while you people are screaming for a nerf because you can't handle the HML pilot? Why are you not subject to the same scrutiny? Why can't we simply say hey the HML is a pretty good weapons system looks like you need to either adjust or learn to deal with it. Or simply train into the weapons system your self.
Yet I / we (we being people like me yes they are out there) are expected to deal with a nerf that brings other weapon systems up and over being superior to missiles.
When you look at the top 20 rank weapons sure HML is on the top but they are the ONLY weapons systems to represent the missile Caldari user excluding torps.

Every other weapons system has a greater representation so where is the balance?
We are being told that HML is getting nerfed to bring them in line with other weapons systems yet missiles are the most underrepresented weapons system in the game if you look at the top 20.
( Source http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 )
So you speak of balance where is the balance? As I stated before the buffs being included will not off set the nerf to the HML
What is CCP prepared to do when the missiles completely fall off the map of the top 20 most used weapon systems?

Let's be real here guys this change should not take place until CCP has a fix as to why missile systems are the most underrepresented weapons system in the game. For all you spreadsheet lovers you can not deny this claim.
I think it is a fairly good trade off to hold the top stop in the most used weapons systems over all to off set being the most underused system in the top 20.. Who knows what this would look like if it went into the top 30 or 40 would we see even a smaller % of missile systems being used?

So lets take PVE off the table and focus only on PVP as you guys seem unwilling to look at it from a PVE point of view for some reasons your $15 a month trumps mine lets go right into PVP and use pure factual numbers here.
I feel like a broken record here having to report it but I want to drill the point home.

TL:DL
HML represents the top spot for the top 20 most used weapons systems and we are all logical people here we know there can only be one number one correct? Despite this the over all missiles systems are the most underrepresented weapons system in the game when we base it only on PVP.
Where is the balance for missile to have a stronger representation in the top 20?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5226 - 2012-10-25 01:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Cazador 64 wrote:


I hear all this bullshit about yup you just need to adapt and adjust all the while you people are screaming for a nerf because you can't handle the HML pilot? Why are you not subject to the same scrutiny? Why can't we simply say hey the HML is a pretty good weapons system looks like you need to either adjust or learn to deal with it. Or simply train into the weapons system your self.


we aren't crying for a nerf. CCP announced these changes, and then pilots like urself started crying. all i'm doing is trying to explain why CCP are making these changes. Before this nerf i ALSO used HML's for blobs and HAMs on my drakes. after this nerf, i will still probably use these weapons. i'm actually looking forward to the hams a lot. just need to get on the damn test server.

Cazador 64 wrote:

We are being told that HML is getting nerfed to bring them in line with other weapons systems yet missiles are the most underrepresented weapons system in the game if you look at the top 20.
( Source http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 )


yes, HML's are being nerfed to bring them in line with other medium long range weapons, namely medium beams, medium rails and medium *arties*. medium beams and rails are even less common than the other missile systems that u think are under represented.

all other missiles are being buffed because, like u say, they are somewhat lacking. so everything will be great (or at least better)

TL:DR
everything is happening as it should be

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5227 - 2012-10-25 05:19:04 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:

Rage HAMs, for example, are seeing a slight reduction in range, and a solid nerf to explosion velocity (10% worse) and radius (20% worse).


I meant to say, that's probably to allow for the fact GMP will now affect these weapons.



Onictus wrote:
Medium Hybrids?

Maybe on Ferox/Eagle, they STILL won't do the damage that a x2 BCS Drake will at that range, and EFT away.


No, they wont, post changes they will reach MUCH further. Problem is, as I've said in the post right before yours is that there's just no percentage in sniping in the current system. I didn't bother with the eagle though.


Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I tryed to fit a Brutix for sniping, and I very hardly reach 90+27km for 240dps. Though, there is *no* tank.
Ferox could certainly reach farther, but dps would be even less.
I didn't tryed harbinger, though beam are supposed to be worse than railguns at these ranges.


[Ferox, Test]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
[empty high slot]

Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II




233 dps with heat, 55k EHP, Ranges of 143+25. Would need either a sebo or a gang sebo but the range dwarfs HML post change. Even CN antimatter offers 403dps, though would need to be shooting a tackled critter range is 40+25. There's so much optimal overkill here you could probably optimize it better, it was a generic throw together fit. +1% PG implant needed.



Bouh Revetoile wrote:
As for the missile balance never siting well for pilots, I think we don't care if they are balanced properly, ie they have their role in the grand scheme of things.


The existence of this debate suggests otherwise though eh? At at a minimum, CCP want it balanced.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why does missiles should do damage at close range comparable to turrets ? They compensate their lack of close range dps by damage application at this close range, and they have their long range niche anyway.


I never said they did, what I said it a uniform DPS profile unchanging over 0-xxxkm range is going to be close to impossible to balance across that range spectrum. I've not seen a decent rebuttal to this point. I don't buy the "it makes them bad turrets" arguement, I think it's weak because there's still a whole lot of defining characteristics which would remain distinct between weapon systems.

To take an extreme example, look at a raven firing cruise (even if they do suck) 0-250km+ 707dps. It's lowish in the sub 100km range, its way too high in the longer ranges. With (all but) a single ammo choice that's hard to balance correctly across the spectrum.

And if we need a decent arguement as to why - missiles are only so big therefore longer range needs more fuel so less explosive can fit and vice versa for short range ones Smile


In any event, I really don't mind, as I've already been open about this character is a cruise toting mission bear funding another (projectile) character, I'm simply trying to suggest ways in which better balance might be achieved. In fact, to be selfish, the fury cruise changes are going to be fabulous for this character.

The feedback once people can get their hands on these will be interesting.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5228 - 2012-10-25 05:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Cazador 64 wrote:
We are being told that HML is getting nerfed to bring them in line with other weapons systems yet missiles are the most underrepresented weapons system in the game if you look at the top 20.
( Source http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 )


Eh?

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 51107
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 32665

And how many other medium weapons get a look in?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5229 - 2012-10-25 05:57:23 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
In any case, these changes are coming. People will adapt as they always do. Tactics will change. Drakes will remain situationally useful, and the Caldari missile pilots will have to get by with that. They still wont have a working HAC, Command Ship, or Missile BS, and perhaps they never will, but that's just the way it goes.

T1 cruisers are gonna eclipse some HAC for some times anyway, though I'd like to know what are the problems of the raven if it's not damage application ?

For the SP whines : missiles SP won't be wasted. Oh, and I just remembered that there is some (huge) nullsec alliances who ask their members to skill for the drake. That's for the question of people crosstraining to caldari. And HML will definitely still work in pvp.


The Raven has NUMEROUS problems actually. It's simply a bad ship in every way. Fire up your EFT and try to come up with something worthwhile. Remember, you need an MWD and point; webs and / or a painter; tank; a Large cap booster (or at least a medium); and at least one large and one medium neut. If you don't have these things it's not a BS, it's a gimmick, a toy. Here's a Raven setup I threw together quickly:

[Raven, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Hammerhead II x5

976 dps w/ drones (1121 dps heated)
855m/sec (1124 m/sec heated)
72.8K ehp (76.4 heated invul)
resists 66 / 77 / 66 / 72

It's not terrible, but it's not good. It has no large neuts, no large cap booster, it's slow, it's got a BC tank, and even with the painter it's gonna have a hard time applying it's full damage. It's basically a really expensive Drake, except slower and without the damage projection.

Now for a quick Typoon:

[Typhoon, quick fit]
Internal Force Field Array I
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

100MN Digital Booster Rockets
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
500W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

Ogre II x5

1019 dps w/ drones (1143 dps heated)
1018 m/sec ( 1453 m/sec heated)
95K ehp
resists: 80 / 67 / 62 / 64

This is the Minmatar equivalent of the Raven. It's FAR faster, it does more dps, it has 20K hore ehp, it fits a large neut, it fits a large cap booster. Like the Raven it will have a hard time applying it's damage, but that's okay.

THIS is that CCP considers 'balannced.' This is what has Caldari pilots upset.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#5230 - 2012-10-25 06:31:59 UTC
^ The typhoon is a fearsome ship in PVP, the Raven however is lulzworthy and laughable, with their purpose being relegated to POS bashing and Capital Bashing, even they are not even close to best at that.

The Raven is slow, they lack fitting for PVP, they lack tank due to requiring painter,mwd,scram, and web. Leaving you with only 2 slots to tank.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5231 - 2012-10-25 06:37:16 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
^ The typhoon is a fearsome ship in PVP, the Raven however is lulzworthy and laughable, with their purpose being relegated to POS bashing and Capital Bashing, even they are not even close to best at that.

The Raven is slow, they lack fitting for PVP, they lack tank due to requiring painter,mwd,scram, and web. Leaving you with only 2 slots to tank.


Yup. What they do have is reeeediculous range. Which they cannot effectively use in the current world What?

It would actually be pretty cool to seen proper sniper fits really viable again, these days it's all knife fights. For a different thread though Smile
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5232 - 2012-10-25 06:54:23 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
PVE...

Take it as you wish : either you lose the game by choosing the wrong path (and you can leave ; can I have your stuff ?), or be creative and look at what you will be able to do with these missiles buff. Yes, HML are not the only missile launchers in the game, but they are the only ones to be nerfed, all the others are buffed.


Please stop spreading this simplification which is so wrong that one even might call it a lie.

Cruise Missiles dont get buffed over all, and the buffs for other weapons are partly neglected by nerfs, so we cant really be sure about the end result. See, I could buff something on paper, but in game it would still not be on par with the best peers, so it would remain useless.

Remember one thing please: all other medium and large missile systems except HML are atm NOT on top in their league. They are mediocre or worse. Torps find use only in Bombers and the Phoon. No Caldari BS is able to compete in PvP with Torps. Cruises are worse in PvP. They dont suck completely in PvE, but are way behind the best. HAM doesnt suck completely, but its way behind the rest in its class.

We will see if those small buffs and nerfs will bring those systems which are atm NOT on par with the best back to life. I doubt it.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5233 - 2012-10-25 07:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Cruise Missiles dont get buffed over all


Fury cruises do, more damage and better able to apply it. A range decrease, but really....has range EVER been an issue for the cruise boats? Pirate

CNR/SNI are going to like this for L4 running at the very least Big smile


Edit: Also remember HAMS are getting buffed by being affected by GMP (any word on rigors?)
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5234 - 2012-10-25 07:09:08 UTC
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 51143
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 32683
3 425mm AutoCannon II 28691
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21287
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 21179
6 425mm Railgun II 20686
7 200mm AutoCannon II 19103
8 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 17453
9 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 14913
10 150mm Light AutoCannon II 14410
11 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 12537
12 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 12433
13 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 11547
14 Light Neutron Blaster II 10947
15 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10576
16 1400mm Prototype Siege Cannon 9095
17 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun 8406
18 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I 7825
19 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7257
20 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 7169


Projectile total 171032
Hybrid total 62162
Laser total 42466
Missile total 63680

Speaking of something is "out of line" and "needs balance" ... Roll

And remember please, 12k of the missiles are not Caldari ships mostly, but Bombers which are pretty ok balanced over all 4 races.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5235 - 2012-10-25 07:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Cruise Missiles dont get buffed over all


Fury cruises do, more damage and better able to apply it. A range decrease, but really....has range EVER been an issue for the cruise boats? Pirate

CNR/SNI are going to like this for L4 running at the very least Big smile


Edit: Also remember HAMS are getting buffed by being affected by GMP (any word on rigors?)


You are right, Furies and Precisions will get buffed a fair bit for Cruises. I referred in my reply to Bouh that t1 CM will not get a buff, so saying every other missile system will get buffed is not true. And it has yet to be seen how those changes which will come make any ship viable which is now not. I feel like the changes will not help to get something back to being on par which sucks now grandtime, but I would for sure love to see my SNI and RNI come to more life ;)

I remember that very well. It might make t1 HAMs viable. Rage HAMs will not be better though IMO.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5236 - 2012-10-25 08:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Speaking of something is "out of line" and "needs balance" ... Roll


And the fact that abilitiy to pick your fights is overrated.

Because people want to be able to pick their fights they use Minmatar ships.

And again, even Harbinger outdamaages Cane at 15+ km.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5237 - 2012-10-25 08:11:08 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Speaking of something is "out of line" and "needs balance" ... Roll


And the fact that abilitiy to pick your fights is overrated.

Because people want to be able to pick their fights they use Minmatar ships.

And again, even Harbinger outdamaages Cane at 15+ km.


Jorma, where is your combat alt? This statement of yours shows you have not much clue of whats going on.

Projectiles have more kills than all three other systems together! Its so much out of line that really NO ONE with their brains set right can deny this fact ... but yeah, go on :)
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5238 - 2012-10-25 08:42:39 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 51143
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 32683
3 425mm AutoCannon II 28691
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21287
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 21179
6 425mm Railgun II 20686
7 200mm AutoCannon II 19103
8 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 17453
9 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 14913
10 150mm Light AutoCannon II 14410
11 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 12537
12 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 12433
13 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 11547
14 Light Neutron Blaster II 10947
15 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10576
16 1400mm Prototype Siege Cannon 9095
17 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun 8406
18 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I 7825
19 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7257
20 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 7169


Projectile total 171032
Hybrid total 62162
Laser total 42466
Missile total 63680

Speaking of something is "out of line" and "needs balance" ... Roll

And remember please, 12k of the missiles are not Caldari ships mostly, but Bombers which are pretty ok balanced over all 4 races.


And this was my point. We have ONE missile system to represent the entire top 20 of all weapons system.
I think it is pretty fair for it to be on top as missiles as a whole is way under represented when you total everything out.
It is simply amazing how you can throw cold hard facts right in peoples face and they will deny it to the very end.
Reminds me of the stubborn mule from family guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

Everyone wanted to throw the we can't balance around PVE in my face so I come up with some PVP numbers and yet people do not recognize how much missiles are out of whack and way under powered and under used.
I submitted to the whole we can't judge on PVE and yet I still see no rational explanation for this clearly blatant neglect for the Caldari pilot and no suggestions other then retraining has been given.

I said it once before it's total bullshit and no one is willing to step up to the plate swallow some pride and admit it.

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Eh?

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 51107
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 32665

And how many other medium weapons get a look in?


Ok fair enough but how many Caldari large systems "get a look in" ??
Oh thats right basically NONE. This is exactly what I mean how in your right mind are you going to try to make this a valid argument? We have one med weapon system and basically basically zero large (as stated those torps are not all Caldari)
So if we remove HML from the top 20 by nerfing it into the ground then putting a bullet in its head for good measure Caldari missile ships have nothing at all Caldari gets zero "look ins" as you called it.

Let me ask you this how many of you are training into cruise or torp for caldari because of this so called buff?
It will not even make a dent in these numbers and they will not even break the top 20.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5239 - 2012-10-25 08:57:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Cazador 64 wrote:


Ok fair enough but how many Caldari large systems "get a look in" ??
Oh thats right basically NONE. This is exactly what I mean how in your right mind are you going to try to make this a valid argument? We have one med weapon system and basically basically zero large (as stated those torps are not all Caldari)
So if we remove HML from the top 20 by nerfing it into the ground then putting a bullet in its head for good measure Caldari missile ships have nothing at all Caldari gets zero "look ins" as you called it.

Let me ask you this how many of you are training into cruise or torp for caldari because of this so called buff?
It will not even make a dent in these numbers and they will not even break the top 20.


While I basically agree with you, you should speak of "missile systems" and not "Caldari systems", because in fact some of the large systems listed will be used by Caldari hulls, namely the Rohk and Naga. The large missiles listed (yes, there are some - Torps meta 4 launchers) will be used by a Caldari hull too, the bomber. And ofc all the other bombers, which are basically pretty equal. No idea if the Phoon pilots will mostly use t2 Torp launchers or not, but for sure Ravens dont play a role in numbers.

But yes, I agree - missiles are way underrepresented. And so are Hybrids, and Lasers too. Thats what I said from the very start though - the problem in Eve is by no means Drake and HML atm. The problem is Winmatar and Projectiles. Everything else can be judged as soon as this way out of line issue has been solved. Instead one of the very few things which seems to work in numbers apart from Winmatar and projectiles will get nerfed. I really wonder who makes those decisions.

I bet a nice ammount of ISK that HML would not be on top of that list if Cruises, Torps and HAMs were all a viable PvP option on Caldari tech 1&2 combat hulls, means they would work on the Raven, Caracal and Drake and also on Cerberus and Nighthawk which would need a shipfix for many of those too. As a result we would see more missiles total, but way less HML and also less Drakes. And not a single nerf needed!

IMO, this incoming nerf will just make the number of missiles in the list smaller, but there wont be more balance nor more variation than before .. good job? I think not :)
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5240 - 2012-10-25 09:25:26 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:


Ok fair enough but how many Caldari large systems "get a look in" ??
Oh thats right basically NONE. This is exactly what I mean how in your right mind are you going to try to make this a valid argument? We have one med weapon system and basically basically zero large (as stated those torps are not all Caldari)
So if we remove HML from the top 20 by nerfing it into the ground then putting a bullet in its head for good measure Caldari missile ships have nothing at all Caldari gets zero "look ins" as you called it.

Let me ask you this how many of you are training into cruise or torp for caldari because of this so called buff?
It will not even make a dent in these numbers and they will not even break the top 20.


While I basically agree with you, you should speak of "missile systems" and not "Caldari systems", because in fact some of the large systems listed will be used by Caldari hulls, namely the Rohk and Naga. The large missiles listed (yes, there are some - Torps meta 4 launchers) will be used by a Caldari hull too, the bomber. And ofc all the other bombers, which are basically pretty equal. No idea if the Phoon pilots will mostly use t2 Torp launchers or not, but for sure Ravens dont play a role in numbers.

But yes, I agree - missiles are way underrepresented. And so are Hybrids, and Lasers too. Thats what I said from the very start though - the problem in Eve is by no means Drake and HML atm. The problem is Winmatar and Projectiles. Everything else can be judged as soon as this way out of line issue has been solved. Instead one of the very few things which seems to work in numbers apart from Winmatar and projectiles will get nerfed. I really wonder who makes those decisions.

I bet a nice ammount of ISK that HML would not be on top of that list if Cruises, Torps and HAMs were all a viable PvP option on Caldari tech 1&2 combat hulls, means they would work on the Raven, Caracal and Drake and also on Cerberus and Nighthawk which would need a shipfix for many of those too. As a result we would see more missiles total, but way less HML and also less Drakes. And not a single nerf needed!

IMO, this incoming nerf will just make the number of missiles in the list smaller, but there wont be more balance nor more variation than before .. good job? I think not :)

Well said . But I'm willing to bet we won't get valid or logical responses someone will quote a small portion of what we said take it out of context and try to make it seem relevant.
As to who makes the calls on how balance should work I'm not really sure my self but let's just remember the DEV'S play this game too.

And when I say Caldari I still mean the hulls and the Missles. And if they are revamping Missles now I don't expect them to get a revisit anytime in the next two years. I really don't think Im out of line saying CCP should officer caldari/Missles users a chance to refund sp in the space ship command Missles and shields trees if they are unable or unwilling to fix this problem.