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Why a high sec nerf is good for industrialists.
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Herr Hammer Draken
#321 - 2012-10-25 03:11:02 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

[quote=Touval Lysander]Time in Eve has no attributable cost.

The man NOT calculating time to acquire/produce will beat you wherever you are. EVERY TIME.

Stop being so bloody minded about the obvious.

EDIT: "Most of the month mining to keep a POS running". See, now, there's your problem. I only had to do like 20-30 minutes a day - usually while I went off and had lunch. Perhaps you've been doing wrong?


No he will not. A ship built has value in its reproccessed minerals. If it is sold for less than its reprocessed cost it will be bought by other industrialists and reprocessed. There is always a bottom price.

If you try to price an item as if its minerals were free then many other industrialists will be buying up your stock to resupply there own minerals. That will have a further effect down stream on other miners as that industrialists is now getting his supply from a cheaper source than the miners are selling.

Operating a POS has costs. Somebody has to pay them.

BPO's have a cost somebody has to pay for that.

Research has a time cost and an isk cost. Time cost acts as a barrier to entry. This cost is higher in high sec than it is in null POS's. That is how it should be as well.

Transporting all the mats during all these phases has a cost. Red Frog or your own transport ships operation.
Includes losses to ganks and etc...

If someone undercuts you all of the time and does take a loss on purpose it is to try to drive you out of business. He is lossing isk on that operation in an attempt to end his competition. That is PVP in the market place.

The main difference in all of these costs is Null has to operate in POS's which add cost to the operation when High sec does not. The fees to operate in stations in high sec should be high enough to offset this difference. To even the play field.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Ghazu
#322 - 2012-10-25 03:30:46 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We have accessto many things via the alliance but we still build most of the gear in empire because its cheaper.
Seriously how is this hard for people to understand?

So build your stuff in highsec fffs. How is this hard for you to understand?! A JF trip is like 20 seconds ffs.

Figure this... People moan when things get expensive. Producers moan that it costs too much to produce.

So they move production to where it's CHEAPER. That's how it's done. I'm not saying it's RIGHT, it's how it's done.

But ask WHY is it done? IT'S COST TO PRODUCE. (i.e. access to resources, cheaper infrastructure and labour AND geographical convenience.)

Who in the "developed" world would take a serious paycut and double the hours worked so that companies like Nike ad infinitum bring manufacturing BACK to the US for example.

Nope, what everyone does in the "developed world" is complain that they've got high unemployment or that we must suffer from wages and conditions reductions to keep your job. THAT's what's happening here.

In this thread, rather than just do the work "offshore" - the solution being offered is to cripple the areas of manufacture so BOTH areas are now high cost.

That just makes **** more expensive.

Profit is the bit BETWEEN cost to produce and sale price - the margin. The trick to increase margin is by maintaining demand by NOT increasing prices and by reducing costs to produce.

We can increase prices to infinity to counter cost creep but if you leave NO ROOM to decrease costs and prices fall (due to competition) margins will DECREASE as costs rise. People become POORER. Stop trying to make people POORER.

If we MUST do anything, just make 0.0 cost to produce == highsec cost to produce and let industry decide where it's done.

We don't need US/THEM (the common denominator around here) - we can have BOTH.

Of course, you could start a "buy local" campaign in 0.0. We know how well they work don't we?


Same could be said for the old mining vessel ehp, you want safety? FIT A TANK FOR FFS. SACRIFICE some yield or cargo for it, you know, making choices.
If it makes things more expensive so be it, why should anything be different than plex, let the market decide.
Highsec need to realize that they need to start losing their own ships, you don't just get to produce whine whining about the very same activities that drive demand for your products.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Herr Hammer Draken
#323 - 2012-10-25 03:57:25 UTC
Ghazu wrote:

Same could be said for the old mining vessel ehp, you want safety? FIT A TANK FOR FFS. SACRIFICE some yield or cargo for it, you know, making choices.
If it makes things more expensive so be it, why should anything be different than plex, let the market decide.
Highsec need to realize that they need to start losing their own ships, you don't just get to produce whine whining about the very same activities that drive demand for your products.


This is a very narrow and misleading view of who buys/drives demand for products.
It is not the lost ships that drives demand. It is the constant influx of new players that drives demand. They need to supply their hangers with stuff. I sell 60+ retrievers per month. They are not getting destroyed at any thing close to that rate.
The bulk of the buyers as I can look at them in my wallet to determine my market are new players buying their first retriever.

Question what is the turnover in EVE? Huge is the answer. I would hazard a guess that 80% of the players in high sec turn over every 4 months. 4 months is not a very skilled pilot.

I find from reading these forums a common complaint the high sec player knows nothing about null sec.
I am also aware that most null sec players know nothing about high sec as well.

Each group makes way too many assumptions about the other. Most of them wrong.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#324 - 2012-10-25 04:28:05 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
The main difference in all of these costs is Null has to operate in POS's which add cost to the operation when High sec does not. The fees to operate in stations in high sec should be high enough to offset this difference. To even the play field.


Okay, try to make T2 stuff in hi-sec and then come back & talk about evening the playing field.

It's very simple: If you're using a null-sec POS just to make T1 stuff then you are wasting your money. Yes, making things at NPC stations in high-sec is cheaper than running your own POS, that much is obvious, but high-sec already has a ceiling and that ceiling is called "Tech 2." All that T2 stuff requires moon-good and reactions and all kinds of thingamajigs that only come from - you guessed it! - low/null-sec POSs and their magical limitless and exclusive tap of moon goo. Oh, did I mention capitol ships? Anyone have any luck getting high-sec NPC stations to do carrier blueprints, lately? No? Odd, that. And while we're waiting on that to finish, let's try copying a blueprint at a public queue, shall we? Or maybe doing some ME research?

There are your high-sec industry nerfs. They're already in place, there's plenty of them and they've around for a long, long time. They've been annoying high-sec industrialist for so long that some of them have already - and I know this hard to believe - gone out and become low/null sec industrialists instead. Crazy, right? I mean, I always thought all that T2 stuff that I see all over the market was just magically seeded in by CCP at every server downtime. But nope, turns out that all of is it actually made by people who aren't making their careers in high-sec.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#325 - 2012-10-25 04:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
Since you guys keep demanding historic examples for ressource denial (not sure why a sci-fi game needs to be based on historic facts, though) I'd like to bring up the French invasion of Russia under Napoleon and how the Russians used scorched earth tactics to starve a superior army without comitting to larger battles.

Please note that ressource denial works both ways and would finally make the large powerblocks vulnerable to guerilla tactics. As a small corp, you cannot engage a large supercap fleet with even the slightest chance of winning- but although jump bridges allow them to be almost anywhere, they cannot be everywhere.
Small, organised groups that raid null territory could develop from a minor nuissance to a serious threat to the economy of larger sov holders.
The results would be more fights in null as well as in highsec and -more important- more incentives for larger alliances to split their forces and have multiple smaller gangs patrol their territory.

edit: since it is a well know historical fact that Bruce Willis saved earth by nuking a meteor, we should call the deliberate destruction of asteroids for ressource denial "Brucing" in his honour.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Herr Hammer Draken
#326 - 2012-10-25 04:40:05 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
The main difference in all of these costs is Null has to operate in POS's which add cost to the operation when High sec does not. The fees to operate in stations in high sec should be high enough to offset this difference. To even the play field.


Okay, try to make T2 stuff in hi-sec and then come back & talk about evening the playing field.

It's very simple: If you're using a null-sec POS just to make T1 stuff then you are wasting your money. Yes, making things at NPC stations in high-sec is cheaper than running your own POS, that much is obvious, but high-sec already has a ceiling and that ceiling is called "Tech 2." All that T2 stuff requires moon-good and reactions and all kinds of thingamajigs that only come from - you guessed it! - low/null-sec POSs and their magical limitless and exclusive tap of moon goo. Oh, did I mention capitol ships? Anyone have any luck getting high-sec NPC stations to do carrier blueprints, lately? No? Odd, that. And while we're waiting on that to finish, let's try copying a blueprint at a public queue, shall we? Or maybe doing some ME research?

There are your high-sec industry nerfs. They're already in place, there's plenty of them and they've around for a long, long time. They've been annoying high-sec industrialist for so long that some of them have already - and I know this hard to believe - gone out and become low/null sec industrialists instead. Crazy, right? I mean, I always thought all that T2 stuff that I see all over the market was just magically seeded in by CCP at every server downtime. But nope, turns out that all of is it actually made by people who aren't making their careers in high-sec.


There you have it. The grass is always greener on the other side of the tracks. I agree that high sec does not need any more nerfs. The problem with null in my opinion is not high sec. It is null sec itself. The value that exsists in null is not shared well with the troops in null.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Ghazu
#327 - 2012-10-25 04:44:35 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Ghazu wrote:

Same could be said for the old mining vessel ehp, you want safety? FIT A TANK FOR FFS. SACRIFICE some yield or cargo for it, you know, making choices.
If it makes things more expensive so be it, why should anything be different than plex, let the market decide.
Highsec need to realize that they need to start losing their own ships, you don't just get to produce whine whining about the very same activities that drive demand for your products.


This is a very narrow and misleading view of who buys/drives demand for products.
It is not the lost ships that drives demand. It is the constant influx of new players that drives demand. They need to supply their hangers with stuff. I sell 60+ retrievers per month. They are not getting destroyed at any thing close to that rate.
The bulk of the buyers as I can look at them in my wallet to determine my market are new players buying their first retriever.

Question what is the turnover in EVE? Huge is the answer. I would hazard a guess that 80% of the players in high sec turn over every 4 months. 4 months is not a very skilled pilot.

I find from reading these forums a common complaint the high sec player knows nothing about null sec.
I am also aware that most null sec players know nothing about high sec as well.

Each group makes way too many assumptions about the other. Most of them wrong.


This is how highsec dudes play. They work up their skills during this time losing a bunch of cheap ships missioning. Later they get their skills t2 fit-ready and they stop losing ships altogether, just grinding for their month's plex with eye on a rattlesnake or one of them pirate bs.
At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.


http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Ghazu
#328 - 2012-10-25 04:50:00 UTC
We are talking about production, you are talking about raw materials. Plenty of tech for sale in Jita, I'd like to see that end and just have the tech be consumed in null production, you know otec 4 lyfe and all.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#329 - 2012-10-25 04:55:34 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

I find from reading these forums a common complaint the high sec player knows nothing about null sec.
I am also aware that most null sec players know nothing about high sec as well.

Each group makes way too many assumptions about the other. Most of them wrong.

Pretty broad generalisation. Your expertise comes from?

I know that many nullseccers are also in highsec same as many highseccers are in nullsec.

The arguments are mostly based over which one they personally hold dearest and have nothing to do with being wrong or right.

I know I've been to all parts of Eve. Would that make me an expert now? I bet it doesn't.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#330 - 2012-10-25 04:56:57 UTC
Ghazu wrote:

At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.

If higheccers had tech-supported SRP, they probably would.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Herr Hammer Draken
#331 - 2012-10-25 04:57:57 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Ghazu wrote:

Same could be said for the old mining vessel ehp, you want safety? FIT A TANK FOR FFS. SACRIFICE some yield or cargo for it, you know, making choices.
If it makes things more expensive so be it, why should anything be different than plex, let the market decide.
Highsec need to realize that they need to start losing their own ships, you don't just get to produce whine whining about the very same activities that drive demand for your products.


This is a very narrow and misleading view of who buys/drives demand for products.
It is not the lost ships that drives demand. It is the constant influx of new players that drives demand. They need to supply their hangers with stuff. I sell 60+ retrievers per month. They are not getting destroyed at any thing close to that rate.
The bulk of the buyers as I can look at them in my wallet to determine my market are new players buying their first retriever.

Question what is the turnover in EVE? Huge is the answer. I would hazard a guess that 80% of the players in high sec turn over every 4 months. 4 months is not a very skilled pilot.

I find from reading these forums a common complaint the high sec player knows nothing about null sec.
I am also aware that most null sec players know nothing about high sec as well.

Each group makes way too many assumptions about the other. Most of them wrong.


This is how highsec dudes play. They work up their skills during this time losing a bunch of cheap ships missioning. Later they get their skills t2 fit-ready and they stop losing ships altogether, just grinding for their month's plex with eye on a rattlesnake or one of them pirate bs.
At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.




But the bulk of them leave before they get that rattlesnake. Or if they do get one they can only sit in it. The care bears never get to the point where they can fight back effectively before they leave the game and are replaced by new care bears. That is exactly why the new crime rules will be such a joke. Not only do they have a lack of skill points, but also lack in game play skill.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#332 - 2012-10-25 05:05:55 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

But the bulk of them leave before they get that rattlesnake. Or if they do get one they can only sit in it. The care bears never get to the point where they can fight back effectively before they leave the game and are replaced by new care bears. That is exactly why the new crime rules will be such a joke. Not only do they have a lack of skill points, but also lack in game play skill.

Be curious to see the average Eve time for a highseccer. I doubt this would be anywhere near true.

In fact I'd almost consider the reverse in that highseccers have less twitch speed and thus less likely to burn out/get bored.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#333 - 2012-10-25 05:06:11 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Ghazu wrote:

At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.

If higheccers had tech-supported SRP, they probably would.


It's not a matter of SRP but a matter of high seccers being in high sec because they don't want to risk thier shiny ship.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#334 - 2012-10-25 05:17:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Ghazu wrote:

At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.

If higheccers had tech-supported SRP, they probably would.


It's not a matter of SRP but a matter of high seccers being in high sec because they don't want to risk thier shiny ship.

lol. So you don't think SRP has anything to do with it? So why does SRP exist?

I know for fact that SRP made me more reckless and more wlling to engage because the loss was nil.

In highsec I always consider very carefully the chances of losing a lot of coin easily because in the first instance, I have no idea who my enemy might actually be.

In 0.0 , I always knew.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#335 - 2012-10-25 05:29:11 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Nowhere in history is there any record of resource denial by pushing mining machinery out of the way. There are plentiful records of mining operations being sabotaged, or access to mining/forestry leases being cut off by protesters.

Which exactly what I meant when I said that the only compeition to Goons 0.0 indy is the Goons themselves.

They CAN'T shoot/blockade/stop the supply from highsec to nullsec because it's THEIR OWN PEOPLE doing it. I, as a non-blue, cannot dock at VFK and sell my stuff. I am not the problem.

These guys want to cripple highsec industry to deny THEIR OWN PEOPLE the ability to import.

We're circle-jerking on WHAT to do and no-one has focused on WHY we need to.

SHOOT BLUE IMPORTER - PROFIT. Problem solved.

Can we go now?

Not when your only answer to fixing null sec industry which even CCP has said is broken is for every null sec alliance to blow up their own supply lines.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#336 - 2012-10-25 05:31:19 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Ghazu wrote:

At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.

If higheccers had tech-supported SRP, they probably would.


It's not a matter of SRP but a matter of high seccers being in high sec because they don't want to risk thier shiny ship.

lol. So you don't think SRP has anything to do with it? So why does SRP exist?

I know for fact that SRP made me more reckless and more wlling to engage because the loss was nil.

In highsec I always consider very carefully the chances of losing a lot of coin easily because in the first instance, I have no idea who my enemy might actually be.

In 0.0 , I always knew.

Nothing is stopping high sec alliances from doing SRP.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#337 - 2012-10-25 05:31:24 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Ghazu wrote:

At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.

If higheccers had tech-supported SRP, they probably would.


It's not a matter of SRP but a matter of high seccers being in high sec because they don't want to risk thier shiny ship.

lol. So you don't think SRP has anything to do with it? So why does SRP exist?

I know for fact that SRP made me more reckless and more wlling to engage because the loss was nil.

In highsec I always consider very carefully the chances of losing a lot of coin easily because in the first instance, I have no idea who my enemy might actually be.

In 0.0 , I always knew.


If SRP was that important, you would see more corp offering it in high. It's not a good selling argument in high because of how high plays. The risk is only your stupidity. No one really hunt you unless you did something stupid before. In null, the hunt is always open to to keep people in the hunting ground, you give them ships. People would not take more rish in high sec if there was SRP. You just can't take more anyway...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#338 - 2012-10-25 05:34:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Ghazu wrote:

At least people in null welp fleets -that's what I mean about how highsec needs to start losing its own share of ships.

If higheccers had tech-supported SRP, they probably would.


It's not a matter of SRP but a matter of high seccers being in high sec because they don't want to risk thier shiny ship.

lol. So you don't think SRP has anything to do with it? So why does SRP exist?

I know for fact that SRP made me more reckless and more wlling to engage because the loss was nil.

In highsec I always consider very carefully the chances of losing a lot of coin easily because in the first instance, I have no idea who my enemy might actually be.

In 0.0 , I always knew.

Nothing is stopping high sec alliances from doing SRP.


Except the fact it is useless... You don't want to indefinitely give free ship to people who do stupid things but thats pretty much the only way to lose a ship in high. Unless you get tear ganked, you had to do something stupid to be killed.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#339 - 2012-10-25 05:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
baltec1 wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Nowhere in history is there any record of resource denial by pushing mining machinery out of the way. There are plentiful records of mining operations being sabotaged, or access to mining/forestry leases being cut off by protesters.

Which exactly what I meant when I said that the only compeition to Goons 0.0 indy is the Goons themselves.

They CAN'T shoot/blockade/stop the supply from highsec to nullsec because it's THEIR OWN PEOPLE doing it. I, as a non-blue, cannot dock at VFK and sell my stuff. I am not the problem.

These guys want to cripple highsec industry to deny THEIR OWN PEOPLE the ability to import.

We're circle-jerking on WHAT to do and no-one has focused on WHY we need to.

SHOOT BLUE IMPORTER - PROFIT. Problem solved.

Can we go now?

Not when your only answer to fixing null sec industry which even CCP has said is broken is for every null sec alliance to blow up their own supply lines.

Your guy has and is engaging in market PvP - ******* over his own mates. If you can't undercut him you kill him. Why should it be any different in 0.0?

You won't 'cos he's blue. You wouldn't hesitate to kill him if he could dock as a neut.

Think man. He's beating you now - when you have exactly the same methods available to you to produce/import as as he does. He's just gonna do exactly the same thing to you if/when 0.0 industry is fixed.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#340 - 2012-10-25 06:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
The main difference in all of these costs is Null has to operate in POS's which add cost to the operation when High sec does not. The fees to operate in stations in high sec should be high enough to offset this difference. To even the play field.


Okay, try to make T2 stuff in hi-sec and then come back & talk about evening the playing field.

It's very simple: If you're using a null-sec POS just to make T1 stuff then you are wasting your money. Yes, making things at NPC stations in high-sec is cheaper than running your own POS, that much is obvious, but high-sec already has a ceiling and that ceiling is called "Tech 2." All that T2 stuff requires moon-good and reactions and all kinds of thingamajigs that only come from - you guessed it! - low/null-sec POSs and their magical limitless and exclusive tap of moon goo. Oh, did I mention capitol ships? Anyone have any luck getting high-sec NPC stations to do carrier blueprints, lately? No? Odd, that. And while we're waiting on that to finish, let's try copying a blueprint at a public queue, shall we? Or maybe doing some ME research?
"I capture and defend the moon from hordes of supercaps and fuel the tower with ice and PI fuel I gather all by myself therefore the moon goo is free"

lollll

Quote:
There are your high-sec industry nerfs.

I see.