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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#721 - 2012-10-24 15:18:19 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Reppyk wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:
The mechanic of Nos is perfect
That's why nobody (but some bears on high spare slots) are using them.


Well, come up with a better mechanic then - and make sure that this mechanic doesn't intrude into Neuts' role. I don't think you can do this, so we're stuck with making the module more useful within the current mechanic.

Anyway, I like Nos. They're fantastic for keeping tackle running under neuts, in fact I prefer a med Nos to an injector on a WH tackle Proteus. They're unpopular because they're too hard to fit and because the drain amount isn't enough. There's scope for cutting the cycle time too.


I also think nos is great for this role. What about decreasing the cycle time on them so they are more effective at keeping mods running and surviving under neuts.

I.e.
Small NOS 3 second duration -> 2 second duration
Medium NOS 6 second duration -> 4 second duration
Large NOS 12 second duration -> 8 second duration.

This is a 33% buff to current NOS, and now each one cycles 3x in the same time a neut cycles once. So much more effective at capping up.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#722 - 2012-10-24 15:33:41 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Reppyk wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:
The mechanic of Nos is perfect
That's why nobody (but some bears on high spare slots) are using them.


Well, come up with a better mechanic then - and make sure that this mechanic doesn't intrude into Neuts' role. I don't think you can do this, so we're stuck with making the module more useful within the current mechanic.

Anyway, I like Nos. They're fantastic for keeping tackle running under neuts, in fact I prefer a med Nos to an injector on a WH tackle Proteus. They're unpopular because they're too hard to fit and because the drain amount isn't enough. There's scope for cutting the cycle time too.


I also think nos is great for this role. What about decreasing the cycle time on them so they are more effective at keeping mods running and surviving under neuts.

I.e.
Small NOS 3 second duration -> 2 second duration
Medium NOS 6 second duration -> 4 second duration
Large NOS 12 second duration -> 8 second duration.

This is a 33% buff to current NOS, and now each one cycles 3x in the same time a neut cycles once. So much more effective at capping up.


I like it..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#723 - 2012-10-24 15:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
tbh NOS work just fine as they are, most of my kills would never have been possible just because of the small and medium NOS

i agree though that the powergrid requirements on medium NOS are a little to big for their use , i would say reduce them a little bit


EDIT: to those wanting to reduce the cycle time of the NOS , try overheating them sometime :P

EDIT: the forums ate half my post >:(

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#724 - 2012-10-24 16:15:03 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Suitonia wrote:

Small NOS 3 second duration -> 2 second duration
Medium NOS 6 second duration -> 4 second duration
Large NOS 12 second duration -> 8 second duration.

This is a 33% buff to current NOS, and now each one cycles 3x in the same time a neut cycles once. So much more effective at capping up.


I like it..


Seems very sensible. I still think that PG requirements need altering though. Take the first Moa iteration here - a Moa with a med Nos in that utility high would have been able to keep tackle and possibly guns (depending on severity ofc) running under neuting. Given the ubiquity of neuts on Hurricanes and Ruptures, this is a useful ability, but is it really worth 175 MW? Would halving the PG of Nos be excessive?

It's also odd that they take about 25% more CPU than neuts, I don't see how that can be justified.
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#725 - 2012-10-24 16:29:23 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Reppyk wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:
The mechanic of Nos is perfect
That's why nobody (but some bears on high spare slots) are using them.


Well, come up with a better mechanic then - and make sure that this mechanic doesn't intrude into Neuts' role. I don't think you can do this, so we're stuck with making the module more useful within the current mechanic.

Anyway, I like Nos. They're fantastic for keeping tackle running under neuts, in fact I prefer a med Nos to an injector on a WH tackle Proteus. They're unpopular because they're too hard to fit and because the drain amount isn't enough. There's scope for cutting the cycle time too.


I also think nos is great for this role. What about decreasing the cycle time on them so they are more effective at keeping mods running and surviving under neuts.

I.e.
Small NOS 3 second duration -> 2 second duration
Medium NOS 6 second duration -> 4 second duration
Large NOS 12 second duration -> 8 second duration.

This is a 33% buff to current NOS, and now each one cycles 3x in the same time a neut cycles once. So much more effective at capping up.


I was thinking the along the same lines then the forums ate my post. I also think lowering the fitting requirements would be icing on the cake. If balance is an issue just remove the offensive aspect of the module all together maybe?

Also I am likeing the second round of changes so far.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
Lili Lu
#726 - 2012-10-24 16:39:17 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Suitonia wrote:

Small NOS 3 second duration -> 2 second duration
Medium NOS 6 second duration -> 4 second duration
Large NOS 12 second duration -> 8 second duration.

This is a 33% buff to current NOS, and now each one cycles 3x in the same time a neut cycles once. So much more effective at capping up.


I like it..


Seems very sensible. I still think that PG requirements need altering though. Take the first Moa iteration here - a Moa with a med Nos in that utility high would have been able to keep tackle and possibly guns (depending on severity ofc) running under neuting. Given the ubiquity of neuts on Hurricanes and Ruptures, this is a useful ability, but is it really worth 175 MW? Would halving the PG of Nos be excessive?

It's also odd that they take about 25% more CPU than neuts, I don't see how that can be justified.


Well because a neut doesn't need to calculate the target's cap resevoir in order to know when to stop it's vampyric activity. P

Anyway, I'm not so sure about reducing nos cycle time. Make nos too strong in this regard and a Neut loses its utility. As was said above, overheat is an option to reduce cycle time.

Regarding the new changes. A step in the right direction. Maller finally has a drone bay. But it could be a bit larger. Moa has a 5th mid. We will have to see with testing whether it makes the ship too tanky. All of these changes are probably going to be affected by further module and/or rig changes of which we are presently unaware.

Thanks, Fozzie

And please, be careful with BCs when you get there. It would be a shame to have these ships stay static in strength differential to the current tier 2s (well pre-Cane nerf values) and then just again be passed over in favor of BC.
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#727 - 2012-10-24 16:48:53 UTC
Fitting is high on Nos because they used to be much more powerful. You may be right on cycle times. Adjusting the fitting requirements may be enough as on most ships you have to sacrifice alot to fit a nos. I usually end up fitting small nos on cruiser/bc hulls because of fitting.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#728 - 2012-10-24 16:55:12 UTC
Suitonia wrote:

Small NOS 3 second duration -> 2 second duration
Medium NOS 6 second duration -> 4 second duration
Large NOS 12 second duration -> 8 second duration.

This is a 33% buff to current NOS, and now each one cycles 3x in the same time a neut cycles once. So much more effective at capping up.


I think this would help.... Then a 1x NOS can run 1x Neut, and 2x NOS can run an Armor Repper (assuming you don't get cap drained between NOS cycles).


Gypsio III wrote:

Seems very sensible. I still think that PG requirements need altering though. Take the first Moa iteration here - a Moa with a med Nos in that utility high would have been able to keep tackle and possibly guns (depending on severity ofc) running under neuting. Given the ubiquity of neuts on Hurricanes and Ruptures, this is a useful ability, but is it really worth 175 MW? Would halving the PG of Nos be excessive?

It's also odd that they take about 25% more CPU than neuts, I don't see how that can be justified.


I personally thing the PG for a small nos is pretty close to where it should be.... Using a utility high for a NOS or Neut should strain the PG of a frigate hull, either encouraging a fitting mod or the downgrade of weapons... Neuts are a standard defense against frigates, and if you make NOS's to easy to fit they'll undermine one of the primary purposes of a Neut...

I do agree both the medium NOS and heavy NOS could use a PG reduction....

To mare
Advanced Technology
#729 - 2012-10-24 17:50:08 UTC
Moa with ASB will be OP in the same way the merlin it is now in the frig class shield resist and damage bonus are awesome together for shield tankers (its already a very good cruiser now).
the Maller and vexor will be better than now but nothing gamebreaking.
the rupture will follow the same fate of the rifter wich is sad, 2 bonus just to get same turret dps of the moa/maller (wich use only 1 bonus) no tank no range bonus.

im still very convinced the only T1 combat cruiser minmatar will have after the expansion will be the bellicose
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#730 - 2012-10-24 18:04:43 UTC
To mare wrote:
Moa with ASB will be OP in the same way the merlin it is now in the frig class shield resist and damage bonus are awesome together for shield tankers (its already a very good cruiser now).


Oversized ASBs are to blame for that, not the hulls.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#731 - 2012-10-24 19:44:44 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
tbh NOS work just fine as they are, most of my kills would never have been possible just because of the small NOS

i agree though that the powergrid requirements on medium NOS are a little to big for their use , i would say reduce them to 100-120 or so

as it i now thay us

EDIT: to those wanting to reduce the cycle time of the NOS , try overheating them sometime :P



We were talking about medium/large nos's

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#732 - 2012-10-24 19:52:42 UTC
Just wanted to let everyone know that these and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate and module changes announced so far will be on Duality for public testing this weekend.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace
PiiiGGGss iiiNNN SSSpppAAAcccEEE
#733 - 2012-10-24 20:38:53 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Just wanted to let everyone know that these and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate and module changes announced so far will be on Duality for public testing this weekend.


Will this include the missile changes as well?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#734 - 2012-10-24 20:44:10 UTC
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Just wanted to let everyone know that these and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate and module changes announced so far will be on Duality for public testing this weekend.


Will this include the missile changes as well?

yes

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#735 - 2012-10-24 20:58:23 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Just wanted to let everyone know that these and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate and module changes announced so far will be on Duality for public testing this weekend.


Will this include the missile changes as well?

yes

This man is correct. The most recent version of the missile changes will be up for testing.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2012-10-24 21:32:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Just wanted to let everyone know that these and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate and module changes announced so far will be on Duality for public testing this weekend.


Will this include the missile changes as well?

yes

This man is correct. The most recent version of the missile changes will be up for testing.


And the hurricane?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#737 - 2012-10-24 22:11:56 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Just wanted to let everyone know that these and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate and module changes announced so far will be on Duality for public testing this weekend.


Will this include the missile changes as well?

yes

This man is correct. The most recent version of the missile changes will be up for testing.


And the hurricane?


Yup

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#738 - 2012-10-25 05:33:26 UTC
Go to Dev Posts, read, and check this quote from the Cane / HML threadnaught.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Want to try the most recent version of these changes out for yourself and see how it affects your play? Log onto Duality starting this Friday where all these changes will be live alongside a bunch of other Retribution content to test. I'll be online as much as possible to chat with you all about all these changes and we will be hoping for a new round of feedback from people who have tried the changes out!



So yes, everything in the OP will be on Duality

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#739 - 2012-10-25 09:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New changes, designed to solve some of the problems brought up so far:
Note that we've upped the mass of all the Combat cruisers in part to help keep them feeling distinct from the other cruisers.

Maller: More fittings and cap to help it operate with the still difficult to use lasers. Added 3 light drones to help with damage application.
+150 PG, +20 CPU
-200 Shield, +200 Armor
+75 Capacitor, -50s Cap Recharge Time, +0.5 Cap/s
-10 Velocity, -0.04 Agility, +500,000 mass, -0.2s Align time
+15m3 Dronebay, +15mbit bandwidth

Moa: Moving a high to a mid provides more tackle and tank options at the expense of the utility high. Slightly lower speed and higher mass alongide a better tank layout and more fittings.
-1H, +1M
+50 PG, +5 CPU
+200 Shield, -200 Armor, +100 Structure
+75 Capacitor, +0.15 Cap/s
-5 Velocity, -0.02 Agility, +500,000 mass

Vexor: Upped the mass, as the old values were just a bit too insane in practice. Added 25m3 dronebay to allow more more spare drones to be carried.
-10 Velocity, -0.07 Agility, +1,000,000 mass, -0.2s Align time
+25m3 Dronebay

Rupture: As many of you pointed out, the Rupture speed was simply too good. My bad.
-1 Launcher
-100 Structure
-30 Velocity, -0.04 Agility, +550,000 mass, -0.2s Align time

OP has been updated


Fantastic
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#740 - 2012-10-25 10:01:05 UTC
This is :moasome: \o/

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !