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I Challenge Hans ...

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#21 - 2012-10-24 00:15:40 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
rodyas wrote:
^ What if he just asked for your opinion instead of changing sides? Would that suffice?
He's discounted a lot of Amarr opinions as whining, because we're on the losing side. If he wants to understand the Amarr position, then he should live it for a three or four months.

I don't understand what it's like to be in a warzone by watching the evening news, for instance. I don't understand what it's like to be poor, by having poor people fill out a survey for me. If I'm serious about understanding either of those things, then you have to experience it first-hand. Of course, these experiences aren't readily in reach for those living on the other side of the fence.

At least with faction warfare, Hans can experience living as an Amarr, if he so chooses. Quite easily.


But what if he does roll amarr FW and he discovers that indeed you are just whining? Or perhaps, he finds out he mostly enjoys being on your comms, when winmitar come and wipe you out and he hears the sadness and crying. Or perhaps with being amarr, he discovers a weakness you guys have and uses his winmitar buddies to exploit it and crushingly defeat you, while recording amarr comms while that happens.

I am just saying it could be risky to invite him to your side, and to show him everything you guys do and have to offer, and the challenges you face.

(Also what you say about experience makes sense, but its sadly something Blizzard would do. why I am wary of it.)

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#22 - 2012-10-24 03:13:51 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
corestwo wrote:
More excuses.
If he wants to represent faction warfare he should be willing to live it from both sides of the fence.


You lived "on the other side of the fence", and found it not to your liking. You then joined the Caldari, allowing you to continue to enjoy the perks of being Amarr (constant "good fights") without the downsides (inability to spend LP). You are now returning to the Amarr only after that downside is minimized if not eliminated. I can't really say that you have a leg to stand on here.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#23 - 2012-10-24 03:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vordak Kallager
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Furthermore, why should Hans (a volunteer) have to abandon his friends in the game for your sake?
My sake? It's for the sake of his better understanding of the system he represents. And he'll broaden his base of friends, rather than giving them up.

Your post is exactly why Hans should join the Amarr for a few months. You confess not having alts in the Amarr militia, yet you're quite quick with telling us exactly what our problems are. Your viewpoint exactly mirrors Hans' viewpoint. He seems to know what the Amarr problems are without ever having been in the Amarr.


I've had alts participating (not just sitting in the general militia chat) in the Amarr militia for a long time now, it's always been the same old ****. Regardless, you seem to know pretty well what exactly the Amarr's problems are: why don't you just tell him and he can pass that **** along to CCP, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to do that.

Edit - also, who is to say he doesn't already have alts in Fweddit or the Amarr or any of the other militias. vOv

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#24 - 2012-10-24 05:00:23 UTC
So in what is likely the most unexpected development, BEEP is going FW for a change of pace. I think Hans rocks FW so I can't pile on any trolling, we are thinking we'll go with Mim, mostly for RP reasons. this REALLY is about a change of pace, not some "easy isk" thing.

But to be fair, we haven't joined a side yet so if someone has a case to make for one side or another I am open to hear where we should "toss in" with . We are in full on prep for this change so we could do most anything.

Good news to many of you, you will get a chance to 'splode me soon!

I've always said I agree that everything in Eve is PvP and I want to have a little more of that in my current Eve experience.

Issler
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-10-24 06:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Issler Dainze wrote:
So in what is likely the most unexpected development, BEEP is going FW for a change of pace. I think Hans rocks FW so I can't pile on any trolling, we are thinking we'll go with Mim, mostly for RP reasons. this REALLY is about a change of pace, not some "easy isk" thing.

But to be fair, we haven't joined a side yet so if someone has a case to make for one side or another I am open to hear where we should "toss in" with . We are in full on prep for this change so we could do most anything.

Good news to many of you, you will get a chance to 'splode me soon!

I've always said I agree that everything in Eve is PvP and I want to have a little more of that in my current Eve experience.

Issler
There are RPers on both sides. In Amarr, contact Shalee Lianne and her alliance iLaw. On the Minmatar side contact someone from Ushra'khan.

I would prefer that you pick Minmatar or Amarr, rather than Caldari or Gallente. I'd wouldn't mind it at all if you chose Minmatar, and not simply so that we can blow each other up. Hell, you're welcome on our comms anytime. ... then I'd actually get to know you, rather than just the third-hand shittalk from your fellow CSM members.

(And I did like that you didn't back down from your endorsement of the mining barge/exhumer buffs, even given that Mackinaws are still reasonably easy to gank.)
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-10-24 07:49:14 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
I've had alts participating (not just sitting in the general militia chat) in the Amarr militia for a long time now, it's always been the same old ****.
And I have an alt in the Gallente militia. But I'm not a smug bastard who'll pretend to know about the ins-and-outs of that militia just because I've flown in a few fleets.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#27 - 2012-10-24 07:50:14 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
So in what is likely the most unexpected development, BEEP is going FW for a change of pace. I think Hans rocks FW so I can't pile on any trolling, we are thinking we'll go with Mim, mostly for RP reasons. this REALLY is about a change of pace, not some "easy isk" thing.

But to be fair, we haven't joined a side yet so if someone has a case to make for one side or another I am open to hear where we should "toss in" with . We are in full on prep for this change so we could do most anything.

Good news to many of you, you will get a chance to 'splode me soon!

I've always said I agree that everything in Eve is PvP and I want to have a little more of that in my current Eve experience.

Issler
There are RPers on both sides. In Amarr, contact Shalee Lianne and her alliance iLaw. On the Minmatar side contact someone from Ushra'khan.

I would prefer that you pick Minmatar or Amarr, rather than Caldari or Gallente. I'd wouldn't mind it at all if you chose Minmatar, and not simply so that we can blow each other up. Hell, you're welcome on our comms anytime. ... then I'd actually get to know you, rather than just the third-hand shittalk from your fellow CSM members.

(And I did like that you didn't back down from your endorsement of the mining barge/exhumer buffs, even given that Mackinaws are still reasonably easy to gank.)


After discussion with our active members we are on the path to join the Mim as the "Freespacer Confederation". I'll be going mostly inactive with Issler in game. Issler will stay in Tada O for logistics to support our miners that want to stay mining focused but look for me primarily active as Denz Ezzle (who was me in the two alliance tournaments we entered) and also I expect some folks might be surprised by a few of the new Freespacers we've recruited.

I'm pretty excited to dive into a part of Eve that I've never experienced. Eve is a huge game and I encourage everyone to get out of your comfort zone regularly to see just how much it can offer a player.

Issler
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-10-24 07:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Issler Dainze wrote:
After discussion with our active members we are on the path to join the Mim as the "Freespacer Confederation". I'll be going mostly inactive with Issler in game. Issler will stay in Tada O for logistics to support our miners that want to stay mining focused but look for me primarily active as Denz Ezzle (who was me in the two alliance tournaments we entered) and also I expect some folks might be surprised by a few of the new Freespacers we've recruited.

I'm pretty excited to dive into a part of Eve that I've never experienced. Eve is a huge game and I encourage everyone to get out of your comfort zone regularly to see just how much it can offer a player.

Issler
Don't move anywhere near Late Night Alliance. We're sick of fighting those guys. And all you'll learn from them is how to outship your opponent into not wanting to fight you anymore. Find a system in Heimatar or Metropolis.

If you want more roleplaying ... I'd suggest basing near Ushra'Khan.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#29 - 2012-10-24 10:31:12 UTC


No gloves slaps in thread.

Left disappointed.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2012-10-24 12:00:00 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
After discussion with our active members we are on the path to join the Mim as the "Freespacer Confederation". I'll be going mostly inactive with Issler in game. Issler will stay in Tada O for logistics to support our miners that want to stay mining focused but look for me primarily active as Denz Ezzle (who was me in the two alliance tournaments we entered) and also I expect some folks might be surprised by a few of the new Freespacers we've recruited.

I'm pretty excited to dive into a part of Eve that I've never experienced. Eve is a huge game and I encourage everyone to get out of your comfort zone regularly to see just how much it can offer a player.

Issler
Don't move anywhere near Late Night Alliance. We're sick of fighting those guys. And all you'll learn from them is how to outship your opponent into not wanting to fight you anymore...


Sounds terrible

Why can't they just stay docked>?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#31 - 2012-10-24 15:29:42 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
If you want more roleplaying ... I'd suggest basing near Ushra'Khan.



Or Defiant Legacy, or EM. In fact, I honestly think EM is a more RP focussed alliance than U'K at this point, having not been living in null for the last few years (which does terrible things to RPing alliances :s ).

Of course, all three alliances live within about 10-15 jumps of each other, so you could very easily interact with all of them :)

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#32 - 2012-10-24 16:22:29 UTC
This is literally your worst troll HTFU post yet Vordak. You really should tell Hands to leave the propganda to Susan.

Vordak Kallager wrote:
The problems the Amarr face are not something Hans, the CSM or CCP can fix. It's a lack of dedicated and driven pilots across all timezones that are willing to sacrifice time/effort to "play the sovwar game" doing stuff like d&o.plexing and such.


Motivation issues for the losing side's willingness to participate in warzone control is one of the biggest things that Hands, the CSM and CCP can actually fix. A Tier 5 capable side has more incentive to "sacrifice" time/effort to "play the sovwar game" than a side at Tier 1 who gets penalties. In fact, this exact issue is one of the biggest problems of the Inferno system. Retribution will minimize this to some degree, largely because plexing income is getting nerfed hilariously, but the core problem of the winner getting more incentive to participate in "sovwar" than the loser will still remain. The fact that the Minmatar can complain that there is little reason to defensive plex because of no reward and criticize the Amarr for saying there is little reason to offensive plex at Tier 1 for the exact same reason just shows that reward determines dedication and drive to perform a boring activity more than anything else.

Quote:
Similarly, (and perhaps this has changed in the past few months; I haven't had actual alts [not just bunker-busting newb alts] in the Amarr since just after Inferno) you are not a very connected militia, whether it be across timezones or even within timezones. You (I'm speaking generally here, not just about one individual or even all individuals) like to lay blame for failures: W-BR wouldn't help, Agony just feeds, ARETR are just plexers, etc

The Minmatar militia is a giant family and we have learned through time and hard work that we can depend on one another. We have our fair share of drama or whatever, but it never gets to the point where we can no longer cooperate or are no longer willing to cooperate. I am proud to be apart of the same brotherhood as Defiant Legacy, Swift Angels Alliance, Iron Oxide., Sicarius Draconis, U'K, and EM. I just don't see that in the Amarr militia; time and time again, the strength of the Amarr has crumbled due to internal conflicts that ultimately results in a lack of cooperation or pilots leaving.

tl;dr - there are great people in the amarr militia, but not enough of them mostly because the amarr don't like working together/compromising/etc.


I don't doubt you hear lots of negative things as there are often growing pains as new groups work together and get their footing. It shouldn't be suprising that people who are completely new to FW and join a heavily outnumbered/losing side might not have the same rosey view of Inferno that you do, but your impressions of the Amarr militia are pretty inaccurate. We have all had struggles working with each other at times, but any major internal conflict has always been the start of a good relationship and never the end of one.

The Minmatar have repeatedly claimed that the Amarr's problem is a lack of organization, when the only significant thing the Amarr lack are numbers. Minmatar "advice" on the Amarr's faults such as organization is either a really bad attempt at metagaming or truly shows how out of touch with things you guys really are.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#33 - 2012-10-24 16:33:24 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
I challenge Hans to be a true representative of Faction Warfare. I challenge him to spend the rest of his term on the losing side of the equation. To see how to other side plays faction warfare, to see how they view it.

Join iLaw (he wouldn't fit into Fweddit, so I don't suggest that as an option) until your term is up.

Instead of viewing the Amarr as simply a bunch of ungrateful whiners, who aren't appreciative of your efforts, join them and see why we view you as someone with only a single worldview where faction warfare is concerned.


You assume he doesn't have an alt in Fweddit. Half of null have alts in fweddit. It is my understanding that a chunk of the guys who really, truly, game the FW system (well gamed until CCP started attempting to quash the LP printing business) had a collection of characters on both sides to properly game the system. I would hazard a guess that most of the big names in FW also did similar things with alts. He's likely flown beside you in fleets. I know I have.


Sitting with little interaction on a handful of fleets isn't even close to getting to know a group of guys and still gives a very limited viewpoint of how a group flies.

If I put an alt on TEST and fly on a couple ops where I sit on a titan for hours silently listening to durr make fart noises before going home with no kills or fights, you and I both know it wouldn't be a fair assesment of what your alliance has to offer.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-10-24 18:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Vordak Kallager wrote:
I've had alts participating (not just sitting in the general militia chat) in the Amarr militia for a long time now, it's always been the same old ****.
Not since Inferno, as you've told us in another post. And Inferno changed the entire face of faction warfare. So, kind of hilarious that you KNOW all these things about us, without having been among us for nearly half a year.

I have a Gallente militia alt. I've been on a few fleets. Since Inferno, even. Unlike you, I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about the Gallente militia. Flying quietly on a few fleets does not equate to me having got to know the major alliances, their relationships to one another, their views on FW, etc.
Tatarinov
Lisnave
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2012-10-24 19:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tatarinov
FW should be between two factions: gallente/minimatar and caldari/amarr. The four sides is somewhat of a combined two front war, but it effectively splits up all the sides far too much to where one of the factions can completely overwhelmed from the rest.
It'd be nice for real issues such as gate guns to be addressed for that matter. Get rid of low-sec issues like gate guns or taking sec status hits for example for those in militia.
Have one CSM member per side, who both rotate half way through the CSM period of seating.
That way input can come from both sides and the CSM can review and decide on changes more accurately. In creating such a system, pro-cons can be more precisely determined by CCP instead of the split between the lazy Caldari, the docking-blob that is Gallente, the rich upshipping whores such as the minnies who have alts in everything where money is, and the insecure disorganized Amarr.
FW is supposed to be about PVP, with the possibility of roleplaying (not that it is a major factor).
Make killing ships the only source of income instead of plexing, and make plexing emphasize PVP by placing bonuses on killing ships within plex's.
Issues such as these would have been realized and addressed long ago if there was more then one CSM for FW.
In summary: solve the multi-front issue.
Solve the issues that prevent PVP. If an area is control by militia, navy police, weapon emplacements, GCC, shouldn't exist. Concord in high-sec is all that should exist for either side.
Solve the representation issue within the CSM. Two sides, two representatives. CCP should be able to decide whatever argument is better.
Praetor Abre-Kai
Pickling Rifles
#36 - 2012-10-24 21:10:16 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
I challenge Hans to be a true representative of Faction Warfare. I challenge him to spend the rest of his term on the losing side of the equation. To see how to other side plays faction warfare, to see how they view it.

Join iLaw (he wouldn't fit into Fweddit, so I don't suggest that as an option) until your term is up.

Instead of viewing the Amarr as simply a bunch of ungrateful whiners, who aren't appreciative of your efforts, join them and see why we view you as someone with only a single worldview where faction warfare is concerned.


You assume he doesn't have an alt in Fweddit. Half of null have alts in fweddit. It is my understanding that a chunk of the guys who really, truly, game the FW system (well gamed until CCP started attempting to quash the LP printing business) had a collection of characters on both sides to properly game the system. I would hazard a guess that most of the big names in FW also did similar things with alts. He's likely flown beside you in fleets. I know I have.


Sitting with little interaction on a handful of fleets isn't even close to getting to know a group of guys and still gives a very limited viewpoint of how a group flies.

If I put an alt on TEST and fly on a couple ops where I sit on a titan for hours silently listening to durr make fart noises before going home with no kills or fights, you and I both know it wouldn't be a fair assesment of what your alliance has to offer.


Listening to durr make fart noises is a fair assessment of what TEST has to offer
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#37 - 2012-10-24 21:38:25 UTC
Check out comments...

I asked for a surprise and it happened. Hans is alright in my book. Cool
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors
#38 - 2012-10-24 23:05:59 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
After discussion with our active members we are on the path to join the Mim as the "Freespacer Confederation". I'll be going mostly inactive with Issler in game. Issler will stay in Tada O for logistics to support our miners that want to stay mining focused but look for me primarily active as Denz Ezzle (who was me in the two alliance tournaments we entered) and also I expect some folks might be surprised by a few of the new Freespacers we've recruited.

I'm pretty excited to dive into a part of Eve that I've never experienced. Eve is a huge game and I encourage everyone to get out of your comfort zone regularly to see just how much it can offer a player.

Issler
Don't move anywhere near Late Night Alliance. We're sick of fighting those guys. And all you'll learn from them is how to outship your opponent into not wanting to fight you anymore. Find a system in Heimatar or Metropolis.

If you want more roleplaying ... I'd suggest basing near Ushra'Khan.


You are a terrible troll.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-10-25 07:34:56 UTC
The main problem with Hans position on the winning side is that he's surrounded by people who validate the changes to FW. If you're on the winning side, then the FW changes are more or less awesome. And that's the sort of thing he hears all day long.

If he spent some serious time on the losing side, he would actually be introduced to another perspective.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#40 - 2012-10-25 11:30:41 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
I challenge Hans to be a true representative of Faction Warfare. I challenge him to spend the rest of his term on the losing side of the equation. To see how to other side plays faction warfare, to see how they view it.

Join iLaw (he wouldn't fit into Fweddit, so I don't suggest that as an option) until your term is up.

Instead of viewing the Amarr as simply a bunch of ungrateful whiners, who aren't appreciative of your efforts, join them and see why we view you as someone with only a single worldview where faction warfare is concerned.





The only difference between you and Donald Trump is you aren't offering to send five million isk to a charity of his choice if he does this :)

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
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