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Why a high sec nerf is good for industrialists.
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EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#181 - 2012-10-24 06:35:20 UTC
I hope the highsec industrialists all leave because that would just mean more profit for me!
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#182 - 2012-10-24 06:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Ghazu wrote:

Buffing null will indirectly nerf highsec production via ramifications, that would be enough for me.

Don't see a problem with this, no. Who wins/loses will sort itself out.

Ghazu wrote:

Null industry have been "dealing with it" for long enough, but to you it's just how things work right?

Actually it's less about whether it works, it's more about how it turned out. It's been neccessary. Pretty simple really.

I've always agreed that there are some problems but the reality is, it's a convenience thing and is less of an issue it's being made out to be. It IS a simple case, and has been for a long time, of an easy JF jump or 2. We're talking minutes here - a minor inconvenience.

As to whether people are being undercut by highsec imports is just bad luck and is no more than whining really. Happens everywhere, why should 0.0 be immune? Welcome to a VR economy sunshine!

Consider also, regardless of what's done to 0.0 indy, we still have to face, and it's been said, the concept of proper mining operations to take advantage of the cheaper/convenient production. Are 0.0 miners going to mine or just import the minerals? (kinda ironic if they do)...

And this insistence that it will "get people back to null" is false because the people who want the changes are already there. The most it will do is offer a reason to shift their alts over.

Highsec will continue to be no threat to 0.0 indy if we just give 0.0 the tools. Conversely, we certainly don't want 0.0 indy to have an adverse affect on highsec for even more reasons - some of which are obvious.

Get me straight - I do not advocate crippling or nerfing anything - 0.0 OR highsec. There's simply no need.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Ghazu
#183 - 2012-10-24 07:34:13 UTC
To me it's less about bringing new people to null but about bringing highsec alts of null duders back to their null homes, of having good reasons to use the space their alliance conquered. I have no illusions of a huge magical migration from high to null.

JFs do not fix the problem of the lack of production slots. The main reason why people don't mine in 0.0 because there is no demand locally due to the lack of slots.

Hypothetically, the nerf may just happen with the devs reponding "because of powercreep" as they did with the heavy missile nerf.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#184 - 2012-10-24 07:34:16 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:

Mining however only increases from 20M to 35M per hour or so, when you switch high-sec for low-sec, which, as witnessed by the lack of low-sec miners, apparently is not enough.


Going by raw numbers and m/3 for m/3 this is accurate, however a lot of the time when I see people talking about the increase in income a miner could get out of low, the risks do not appear to be calculated into the equation.

A solo miner, in a Retriever, has 27k m/3 of ore hold. Mines the FOTM rock in highsec, warps to and from the station to dump ore then back to rocks, gets accused of botting, etc, but for the most part, he doesn't have a lot to worry about, especially after the barge buff.
Same solo miner in lowsec, assuming there is a station in system, has the same yield and the same ore hold. He's also go Jaspet to mine, which may or may not be higher in value. He also now has to warp to a safe or dock up whenever someone enters local, and he'd best hope they don't have combat probes and some friends a couple systems over. Otherwise he's got to sit in station.
Depending on what low-sec system you are in, the frequency of visitors can be enough to make mining extremely unprofitable, or perhaps make it profitable (if you find a really quiet system), but then you have to deal with the fact that most "quiet" low-sec systems are several jumps from high-sec, and you can't exactly fly a max cargo-fit Itty V to get your minerals out of low and to a place where they will sell.

Mining in low-sec looks good on paper at times when Jaspet percolates towards the top of the value list, but in practice, it's much more profitable to mine in high-sec.



At what level of ISK/hour would you estimate that mining in low-sec would be worth it? Comparing it to other risky endeavors in low-sec (but with miners running a bigger risk then a nimble, cloaky explorer), I estimated it would take at least 100M ISK/hour.

With that income you can afford to lose a few barges per week and still make a good profit (which is how risk vs. reward works).

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Diva Ex Machina
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#185 - 2012-10-24 07:41:34 UTC
Kult Altol wrote:
Harraria wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:

IF high sec were nerfed, I would cancel my alts sub, and not move to low and null. I know others that I play with woudl do the same.


Yes, I play the game because it's enjoyable. Being surrounded my meme spouting neckbeards engaged in some sort of perverse popularity orgy in 0.0 would be unenjoyable.



and you read the whole thing? Wow good job. Since your making sweeping generalizations, I will too. Wow you read the whole thing you must have no life.


From what I have experienced of nullsec, it's a pretty accurate description.

Really, if nullsec alliances wanted more industry then they would make 0.0 a welcoming place for miners and industrialists. But from what I've seen, miners and industrialists are barely tolerated in null and often get ridiculed and taxed back into high sec for not being 'l33t pvpers'.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2012-10-24 07:43:39 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
And this insistence that it will "get people back to null" is false because the people who want the changes are already there. The most it will do is offer a reason to shift their alts over.

Sounds like a decided improvement, then. vOv

Touval Lysander wrote:
Highsec will continue to be no threat to 0.0 indy if we just give 0.0 the tools. Conversely, we certainly don't want 0.0 indy to have an adverse affect on highsec for even more reasons - some of which are obvious.

Which is why there would have to be changes done to hisec's industrial mechanics to give nullsec a natural advantage. In fact, if nullsec started exporting more goods than it imported, that would be awesome.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-10-24 07:45:09 UTC
Diva Ex Machina wrote:
Really, if nullsec alliances wanted more industry then they would make 0.0 a welcoming place for miners and industrialists. But from what I've seen, miners and industrialists are barely tolerated in null and often get ridiculed and taxed back into high sec for not being 'l33t pvpers'.

And the reason for that is, there's absolutely no need for miners and industrialists in nullsec at this point, since everything can be done cheaper and more effectively by manufacturing it in hisec and shipping it out to nullsec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#188 - 2012-10-24 08:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Lord Zim wrote:
Diva Ex Machina wrote:
Really, if nullsec alliances wanted more industry then they would make 0.0 a welcoming place for miners and industrialists. But from what I've seen, miners and industrialists are barely tolerated in null and often get ridiculed and taxed back into high sec for not being 'l33t pvpers'.

And the reason for that is, there's absolutely no need for miners and industrialists in nullsec at this point, since everything can be done cheaper and more effectively by manufacturing it in hisec and shipping it out to nullsec.


Indeed.

Before Jump Freighters, Titan Bridges and Jump networks. null was much more self-reliant. Even T2 production, was partially moved into null sec using BPC. Mind you this was before reverse engineering, so this meant making BPC from copying the actual BPO, which made it costly and inefficient.

And this was all before there were outposts in half of the systems. Addiction to empire's convenience has rotted away null's industry away from the bottom up, with only capital production immune.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#189 - 2012-10-24 08:29:03 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Diva Ex Machina wrote:
Really, if nullsec alliances wanted more industry then they would make 0.0 a welcoming place for miners and industrialists. But from what I've seen, miners and industrialists are barely tolerated in null and often get ridiculed and taxed back into high sec for not being 'l33t pvpers'.

And the reason for that is, there's absolutely no need for miners and industrialists in nullsec at this point, since everything can be done cheaper and more effectively by manufacturing it in hisec and shipping it out to nullsec.


Indeed.

Before Jump Freighters, Titan Bridges and Jump networks. null was much more self-reliant. Even T2 production, was partially moved into null sec using BPC. Mind you this was before reverse engineering, so this meant making BPC from copying the actual BPO, which made it costly and inefficient.

And this was all before there were outposts in half of the systems. Addiction to empire's convenience has rotted away null's industry away from the bottom up, with only capital production immune.

Add onto that the lack of production slots too
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-10-24 08:33:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Diva Ex Machina wrote:
Really, if nullsec alliances wanted more industry then they would make 0.0 a welcoming place for miners and industrialists. But from what I've seen, miners and industrialists are barely tolerated in null and often get ridiculed and taxed back into high sec for not being 'l33t pvpers'.

And the reason for that is, there's absolutely no need for miners and industrialists in nullsec at this point, since everything can be done cheaper and more effectively by manufacturing it in hisec and shipping it out to nullsec.


Indeed.

Before Jump Freighters, Titan Bridges and Jump networks. null was much more self-reliant. Even T2 production, was partially moved into null sec using BPC. Mind you this was before reverse engineering, so this meant making BPC from copying the actual BPO, which made it costly and inefficient.

And this was all before there were outposts in half of the systems. Addiction to empire's convenience has rotted away null's industry away from the bottom up, with only capital production immune.

Add onto that the lack of production slots too

And the fact the number of people has gone up ~slightly~ since before titan bridges and JFs.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#191 - 2012-10-24 08:46:40 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:

At what level of ISK/hour would you estimate that mining in low-sec would be worth it? Comparing it to other risky endeavors in low-sec (but with miners running a bigger risk then a nimble, cloaky explorer), I estimated it would take at least 100M ISK/hour.

With that income you can afford to lose a few barges per week and still make a good profit (which is how risk vs. reward works).


30mil isk/hour over what I make now in high-sec (a lazy 40mil isk). It would cover potential ship loss, as well as lack of Orca support and transport. 40mil to make it worth maintaining and defending a POS.

100m isk/hour more would make things quite interesting, but it's certainly not the minimum threshold unless you want to mine in strictly T2 vessels.

Profit favors the prepared
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#192 - 2012-10-24 09:42:23 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Which is why there would have to be changes done to hisec's industrial mechanics to give nullsec a natural advantage. In fact, if nullsec started exporting more goods than it imported, that would be awesome.


I touched on some ideas for revamping industry in response to the CSM Summit Minutes in my blog some time back. The crib notes:

  • Convert all activity lines to process rather than project operation. That is: you load a blueprint, press go, and the assembly line/research facility/invention lab will continue to produce the output until the inputs are exhausted.
  • Have NPCs adjust the prices of their facilities based on load: more than 50% of lines in use? Increase the price by 10%
  • Reduce the number of NPC lines
  • Buff POS refineries
  • Nerf NPC station refineries to bring them into line with POS refineries (i.e.: turn refineries into assembly lines: if there are a lot of people reprocessing stuff at a station, the queue for the local refinery grows very very long)


Between the requirement for Charters for POSes anchored in empire, and the fuel efficiency dividend of sovereignty (or FW occupation, perhaps?), you'll have decent benefits for doing your industry activity in nullsec or lowsec.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2012-10-24 10:06:57 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
  • Convert all activity lines to process rather than project operation. That is: you load a blueprint, press go, and the assembly line/research facility/invention lab will continue to produce the output until the inputs are exhausted.
    • Oh god yes this

    Mara Rinn wrote:
  • Have NPCs adjust the prices of their facilities based on load: more than 50% of lines in use? Increase the price by 10%
    • Pretty certain this is happening already in some fashion.

    Mara Rinn wrote:
  • Nerf NPC station refineries to bring them into line with POS refineries (i.e.: turn refineries into assembly lines: if there are a lot of people reprocessing stuff at a station, the queue for the local refinery grows very very long)
    • I'm inclined to thinking this is taking it a bit too far. On the other hand, it's odd that refining is the one activity which is instant, but I've used a POS refinery in a WH and it sucked dicks because it just couldn't cope with even a single hulk.

    Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

    RIP Vile Rat
    Geligdio Khan
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #194 - 2012-10-24 10:13:31 UTC
    Jojo Jackson wrote:
    Geligdio Khan is either a forum troll or a wannabe pirate alt. Else he wouldn't try to get eazy targets into lowsec.

    Wannabe as real pirates want competent enemys ... NOT unarmed industrial ships.

    Forum Troll as anyone with brain would know, that a change like this would destroy EvE.
    IF anything but Tritanium must be mined in low- or null-sec the price for EVERY item would skyrock! Do you realy like to pay 100 million for a Rifter? And another 200 million for the fitting?

    Why it would be so expensive you ask?
    Independet miners would be forced to calculate new mining ships once a day. So for every 100 m³ ore they would need to add the price of a full fittet mining barg. As the price of mining bargs would skyrock too ore would become even more expensive. The cycle wouldn't end and suddenly a retriver would cost 100 BILLION.

    Not to count all the players who would stop playing as they simply DO NOT LIKE LOW-/NULL-SEC!
    And no forum troll wannabe pirate will EVERY change their minds!

    Get it into your peanut sized brain.
    THEY .... DO .... NOT .... LIKE .... NULLSEC!
    If they would be forced to go there ... they would racer stop playing then providing you eazy targets!



    Thanks for your response.

    Can I ask, why play an MMO if you dont want to interact with other people? You could just play offline.

    Every industrialist wants to sell their products to PVPers but they dont want anything to do with them? Sounds like an odd arrangement.

    Thanks
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #195 - 2012-10-24 10:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
    baltec1 wrote:
    Tobiaz wrote:
    Lord Zim wrote:
    Diva Ex Machina wrote:
    Really, if nullsec alliances wanted more industry then they would make 0.0 a welcoming place for miners and industrialists. But from what I've seen, miners and industrialists are barely tolerated in null and often get ridiculed and taxed back into high sec for not being 'l33t pvpers'.

    And the reason for that is, there's absolutely no need for miners and industrialists in nullsec at this point, since everything can be done cheaper and more effectively by manufacturing it in hisec and shipping it out to nullsec.


    Indeed.

    Before Jump Freighters, Titan Bridges and Jump networks. null was much more self-reliant. Even T2 production, was partially moved into null sec using BPC. Mind you this was before reverse engineering, so this meant making BPC from copying the actual BPO, which made it costly and inefficient.

    And this was all before there were outposts in half of the systems. Addiction to empire's convenience has rotted away null's industry away from the bottom up, with only capital production immune.

    Add onto that the lack of production slots too


    How can there be a lack of production slots if you can do it at POS? Oh right... lack of CHEAP and SECURE production slots. I guess null thinks they somehow deserve the same abundance of convenient facilities as empire, why?

    To be honest , I'd think it's fine to allow multiple outposts in a system though. On the condition they can be destroyed and looted.

    And the fees for empire NPC facilities should be increased, to bring them on the same level as POS prodution (unless reduced with good standings with the NPC owner and Faction). This would mean cheap empire production is possible, but restricted to FW and industrialist that care to run missions on the side.

    Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #196 - 2012-10-24 10:53:33 UTC
    Its not exactly as risk free as empire when you can lose access to the station and all of your assets inside now is it?

    Seriously what is so bad about null sec being at least on par with empire? As it is right now the only thing worth building in nullsec are supers and thats only becauze you need sov to do it.
    Ghazu
    #197 - 2012-10-24 10:56:46 UTC
    Why does hisec think they somehow deserve the abundance of convenient facilities when they don't even pay sov bills, they get all that fo free, why?

    http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #198 - 2012-10-24 11:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
    baltec1 wrote:
    Its not exactly as risk free as empire when you can lose access to the station and all of your assets inside now is it?

    Seriously what is so bad about null sec being at least on par with empire? As it is right now the only thing worth building in nullsec are supers and thats only becauze you need sov to do it.


    OK, granted. But there are plenty of outposts in the game that haven't even been in danger of being taken over for years. And the reason why only caps or worth producing in null, is not because the production capabilities in null suck, but because of deeper underlying problems which cause a lot more problems.

    Instead of trying to mend all its symptoms, CCP should fix the roots of these problem: excessive power&logistical projection of null and too high, risk-free income in empire.

    Ghazu wrote:
    Why does hisec think they somehow deserve the abundance of convenient facilities when they don't even pay sov bills, they get all that fo free, why?


    Because in empire, it's almost impossible to get rid of your competition through violence.

    Also, players in null should make more money on average then in empire. Perhaps this is not really the case right now, but that requires its own solution and is no good argument for bringing production capabilities in null on par with empire.

    Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
    Ghazu
    #199 - 2012-10-24 11:08:58 UTC
    Tobiaz wrote:
    Ghazu wrote:
    Why does hisec think they somehow deserve the abundance of convenient facilities when they don't even pay sov bills, they get all that fo free, why?


    Because in empire, it's almost impossible to get rid of your competition through violence.

    Also, players in null should make more money on average then in empire. Perhaps this is not really the case right now, but that requires its own solution and is no good argument for bringing production capabilities in null on par with empire.


    Getting better everything (capacity and security) for free makes no sense.
    Give me a good reason why null production can't be on par with empire.

    http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #200 - 2012-10-24 11:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
    Ghazu wrote:
    Tobiaz wrote:
    Ghazu wrote:
    Why does hisec think they somehow deserve the abundance of convenient facilities when they don't even pay sov bills, they get all that fo free, why?


    Because in empire, it's almost impossible to get rid of your competition through violence.

    Also, players in null should make more money on average then in empire. Perhaps this is not really the case right now, but that requires its own solution and is no good argument for bringing production capabilities in null on par with empire.


    Getting better everything (capacity and security) for free makes no sense.
    Give me a good reason why null production can't be on par with empire.


    I think I already did.

    More capacity and security in return for increased competition and decreased consumer wealth.

    Edit:

    It's not more capacity by the way, but an increase in the operating costs of production, because null can increase its capacity simply with POS. I do however think NPC fees in empire should be increased (with a standings reduction) with a more dramatic further increase when the industry and research slots are running at 100% capacity (as now happens with offices like in Jita)

    Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!