These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Fast Forward

First post First post
Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#381 - 2012-10-24 00:34:32 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
I am kind of curious on this. To me this change doesn't really improve gameplay and this piece of intel definately favors the attacking player and not the defensive player, because I presume that the timer will be actively showing on everyone's HUD throughout the system, so you will know if an enemy is at a particular plex or not. While I see how this information could be "nice" to have, I don't see it something critical or game-breaking if it wasn't implemented. In some respects, it makes finding your opponent, particularly solo pilots, a bit too easy.

Could you clarifiy the reasoning behind this?


[TL, DR: Plexing needs to be refocused on PvP. Plexers need to grow some balls, bring a real ship, learn to fight, or bring friends that can fight with you. It's time to end FW as a PvE race where evading the enemy results in faster takeover and increase profits.]


Great question, happy to shed some light on the context behind this change.

Look, the bottom line is that we ALL know how boring plexing is, in a vacuum. With no other players around, its akin to watching paint dry. There's no need to sugar coat this fact of life. Lol

Where plexing gets really interesting however, is when two groups care about it enough to fight over it. This really isn't any different than a tech moon, or a POCO, or a POS, an asteroid belt, or a mission site. Really boring stuff - until two people on opposing sides want it. Plexing is just the simplest, distilled mechanic that you need to bait a fight.

In the end - whether you have Incursion-style uber NPC's, or whether you remove them from plexes completely - there is literally NOTHING about altering the NPC content that will directly drive PvP in and of itself. I understand that speed tanking is bad, and buttoning it up with an NPC overhaul and forced elimination will work to that effect, but that alone doesn't fix the "sucking chest wound" of FW - the need for plexing to be a nearly guaranteed way to find yourself being shot up by someone that wants you dead.

In my opinion, there should only be three types of players inside the plexes for Faction Warfare to be a healthy, engaging system.

1.) Players that may be after the LP or WZC, but that embrace the possibility of PvP, and fit their ship to win against aggressors. (warp-stabbed gunless atrons fail this criteria)

2.) Players that may or may not care about the LP, but go into a plex specifically to bait someone for the sake of a fun PvP fight.

3.) Players that just want to murder whoever is in the plex, for whatever reason. These players don't give a flying cluck whether you are the first or second type, they want to see you dead. No questions asked.

Players in categories (2) and (3) need no mechanical adjustment. They'll get into pew on their own. For those in category (1) to provide pew, they must be able to bring a real PvP ship. This is why I've fought so hard to get an NPC overhaul pushed through, the current content favors typical PvE tanking over PvP capability.

Additionally, they must be penalized for evasion. Plain and simple. This is an absolute conviction of mine. The ONLY justification for the existence of such high payouts in plexing is that players must risk their ships in (Im)mortal Kombat to earn it.

This leads us to the timer rollback. The huge win here is that if you run at the first sign of danger, you're not going to be able to double back later and pick up where you left off. Want that 30,000 LP? Than be willing to do whatever it takes to stay alive for 15 minutes in one place at one time.

The last way we penalize evasion of PvP is by making it difficult for players to hide the fact that they are plexing. Tragically, under current mechanics pew pew only slows down the pursuit of WZC. You're better off skipping the fight, splitting up, and grinding more plexes if you want to minmax.

POS and POCO attacks bait fights because they not only light up system wide with their exact location, they also put their time of vulnerability on a calendar for everyone to see. And it works. I encouraged Fozzie and the team to put at least that level of visibility (for which there is existing, proven precedent) onto plexes, so they behave similarly as a beacon for PvP activity.

I completely understand not wanting to "dumb the game down", and not wanting to kill scouting as a necessary fleet role, and having a plex timer visible on overview doesn't remove the need to have players seeing where the enemy is and in what ships. What a visible timer DOES do, however, is eliminate the obfuscation that can occur when there's multiple plexes and missions open at once. For players in category (1), if they're only in a plex as long as they have to be till they move - that minute or two needed to scan them out may be the window they need to escape.



CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#382 - 2012-10-24 00:43:32 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Man, I really wasn't up to date on all this info. Ok, this makes more sense. Is this a suggestion or has it been officially announced?


I suggested it, the devs announced it, and the new NPC's are being designed and scripted as we speak.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Audrey Koshka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2012-10-24 00:45:08 UTC
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Hans had made a suggestion at one point that PvP kills pay out at the max multiplier regardless of current faction tier to reward pewpew, any word on that possibility?


Any word on this?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#384 - 2012-10-24 05:25:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Orakkus wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
You know, like the big boys do. Smile


Shouldn't that be an Eve Meme by now?

The problem is that a scout won't help you in this situation, aside from giving you a few moments warning as to their incoming gang, which this change will allow them to move rather quickly against you. The, ahem, "Big Boys" (in Dr. Evil quotes) you speak of will not just be a system over, they'll be where your scout (which, won't take them long to figure out) isn't going to be. And their scouts will be watching your scout, and all that business.

Hey, anything that gives me a heads up when I'm hunting frogs is all well and good.. and this CERTAINLY will make it easier for me to find foes. Much, MUCH easier.

But, in the end, I don't think the change is all that fair. And Hans or CCP hasn't come back and said what problem this will directly address or how this will improve Faction Warfare overall.

When I spoke of using scouts when plexing with a group "like the big boys do" I wasn't referring to what most FW pilots currently do when plexing now, which is avoid combat at all costs. Blink

Using scouts with your fleet effectively is what makes or breaks most combat engagements all across New Eden. Having 30-60 seconds warning (longer if your scouts are any good) as to what is heading your way is one heck of a lot better than the 10-15 seconds you might have depending on D-Scan alone. If you doubt that, go hold your breath for 10 seconds and then do it again for 60 seconds, and then tell me if you think that the difference is insignificant. Smile

The point being, only a very foolish FC would put his fleet in harms way without effective scouting.

Hans already spelled out the problem being addressed with this change. Faction Warfare is supposed to be primarily about PVP, with a side dish of PVE... not the other way around. It's main purpose is to provide an immersion friendly environment that fosters PVP, and plenty of it.

Certainly there will be people who dedicate themselves to farming the plexes and missions and avoid combat at all costs, but FW is being configured quite intentionally to make that sort of play style very difficult indeed. And when farming is done, the design has changed so that the most profitable way to do it also serves the needs of those that are more interested in taking and holding systems, rather than simply lining their pockets at their own factions expense by milking vulnerable systems and keeping them that way.

There are already numerous environments dedicated to PVE (belt rats, anoms, static plexes, incursions, etc.)... this is not going to be one of them.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Durrr
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#385 - 2012-10-24 05:29:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Durrr
I tried a plex today, just to see the changes. I did not notice a perceived "lack of dps" on the part of the rats. Stated another way (I was in a minor in a dessie), the DPS I noticed would be more than enough to convince me that a fight, which would otherwise be even, would not be in my best interest to take assuming I had these rats hitting me.

Can you please clarify if this has already been changed, or if this is a delay to winter?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#386 - 2012-10-24 05:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Durrr wrote:
I tried a plex today, just to see the changes. I did not notice a perceived "lack of dps" on the part of the rats. Stated another way (I was in a minor in a dessie), the DPS I noticed would be more than enough to convince me that a fight, which would otherwise be even, would not be in my best interest to take assuming I had these rats hitting me.

Can you please clarify if this has already been changed, or if this is a delay to winter?


The lower damage, single NPC at a time changes have not been implemented yet. It is not clear (to me anyway) if we will see them before the winter expansion.

For the moment you'll be wanting to bring friends.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Durrr
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#387 - 2012-10-24 05:43:07 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Durrr wrote:
I tried a plex today, just to see the changes. I did not notice a perceived "lack of dps" on the part of the rats. Stated another way (I was in a minor in a dessie), the DPS I noticed would be more than enough to convince me that a fight, which would otherwise be even, would not be in my best interest to take assuming I had these rats hitting me.

Can you please clarify if this has already been changed, or if this is a delay to winter?


The lower damage, single NPC at a time changes have not been implemented yet. It is not clear (to me anyway) if we will see them before the winter expansion.

For the moment you'll be wanting to bring friends.



Thanks for the clarification Ranger1
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#388 - 2012-10-24 05:44:17 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I completely understand not wanting to "dumb the game down", and not wanting to kill scouting as a necessary fleet role, and having a plex timer visible on overview doesn't remove the need to have players seeing where the enemy is and in what ships.


You are a moron and biased but hey, what else is new. Having plex timers show up will simply tell the other side "We have enough time to gather blob for this plex" as needed without them having to risk a scout or fight in less than optimal situation since they wont know how much time is left.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#389 - 2012-10-24 05:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Yuri Intaki wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I completely understand not wanting to "dumb the game down", and not wanting to kill scouting as a necessary fleet role, and having a plex timer visible on overview doesn't remove the need to have players seeing where the enemy is and in what ships.


You are a moron and biased but hey, what else is new. Having plex timers show up will simply tell the other side "We have enough time to gather blob for this plex" as needed without them having to risk a scout or fight in less than optimal situation since they wont know how much time is left.

A timer tells you very little about the situation, just as it doesn't tell the tale when mustering to defend a POS coming out of reinforced.

While it is true that you will know which plex (or plexes) are being attacked, you will not know crucial information such as "Are the enemy ships all on the button, or are most of them at range from the beacon?" "Are they all in this system, or are there more of them next door?"

It's those little, important details that can get you killed. Smile

More importantly, it makes it more likely that an attempt will be made to stop the count down with force, which is rather the whole point.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#390 - 2012-10-24 06:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
Ranger 1 wrote:
Yuri Intaki wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I completely understand not wanting to "dumb the game down", and not wanting to kill scouting as a necessary fleet role, and having a plex timer visible on overview doesn't remove the need to have players seeing where the enemy is and in what ships.


You are a moron and biased but hey, what else is new. Having plex timers show up will simply tell the other side "We have enough time to gather blob for this plex" as needed without them having to risk a scout or fight in less than optimal situation since they wont know how much time is left.

A timer tells you very little about the situation, just as it doesn't tell the tale when mustering to defend a POS coming out of reinforced.

While it is true that you will know which plex (or plexes) are being attacked, you will not know crucial information such as "Are the enemy ships all on the button, or are most of them at range from the beacon?" "Are they all in this system, or are there more of them next door?"

It's those little, important details that can get you killed. Smile

More importantly, it makes it more likely that an attempt will be made to stop the count down with force, which is rather the whole point.


Timer tell to your plexing alt that there is enough time to enter plex and whore half of lp, and when timer is moved to landing point you can do it without any risk especially when no one can tackle you on plex gate before entering it.

Excellent way to make one reason more to not plex at all with anything else than 1day griefing alts.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#391 - 2012-10-24 07:13:37 UTC
I agree with Yuri Intaki on the fact that it does give too precise intel to the defender. With the beacons spawning and d-scan, it is easy enough to spot enemy plexers and there is no reason for the timer to be broadcasted accross system.

Intel should cost something.

D-scanning the plexes costs putting yourself at d-scan range of the plexer.

Checking the timer costs putting yourself on grid with the plexer.

This is not especially difficult or time-consuming. Removing those costs would just be an unfair advantage for the defenders (or pirates, or grievers, or ninjas).

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#392 - 2012-10-24 08:09:09 UTC
If idea is to get more pvp in plexes then why defender gets lp on different times than attacker.

now when defender get max possible lp only after 75% contested and also lp when system is vulnerable and attacker stops getting lp when system is vulnerable causes that when both optimize lp gain and risk we get next results:

-Attacker attacks low contested systems, because defenders are not much interested about those if there is more contested systems available.

-defender should focus 1st on systems which are vulnerable because there should be no more enemy plexing so you can freely defend, if there is no vulnerable systems you focus 75%+ systems to get maximum lp payout.

So now tell me how this is going to add pvp when attacker and defender has interest on systems on different times?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#393 - 2012-10-24 09:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
CCP Fozzie wrote:
For the purposes of that formula the systems are capped at 100% vulnerable. the "133% vulnerable" thing is just behind the scenes and affects how many plexes it takes to being a system back down from vulnerable until we get the cap in place.

So the plan is to remove one of the most intense fighting experiences in Eve when d-plexing can no longer be used to stop a bunker-bust fleet?
It should be 100%, no overflow .. nothing .. just straight up 100%. Defender has docking privileges so easy as hell to grab a shiptype and head to a plex where the 'normally' upshipped bunker fleet can't bring the blob to bear .. but then that whole argument will be moot if the plans to 'simplify' plex restrictions go through.
Gizznitt Malikite99 wrote:
It really looks like deplexing is only valuable in highly contested systems, which will reward PvP in these systems... Systems will no longer remain 100% vulnerable for extended periods of time, as there is little benefit to the attackers to leave it that way!

How do you reckon it will benefit PvP in near vulnerable systems, has the embrace of the farming life that everyone made themselves guilty off the past 9 months not taught you anything?
The defender wants to have an enemy plexing a highly contested system as it means he gets more LP/hr, just as the enemy wants the defender to plex in same system to keep the LP flowing .. if both parties have an interest in the other doing their thing then the end result is less PvP.

Not that it will happen of course, because we human players all act 100% in accordance with CCPs models and we'd never think of having both the defender and the attacker be controlled by the same person to maximize profit .. we also would never set aside an area to be farmed in such a way in perpetuity by eliminating anyone entering that might be a threat to the bottomline (most likely allies responding to map flare).

The mere fact that the farm lobby managed to convince CCP that incentives were needed for fighting the actual war is what hurt FW the most. Low enough and you might as well not have bothered, high enough and all fighting ceases as guns are made into plowshares.
We already had our danger pay with massively discounted navy hulls, all they needed to do was add more monopolies to the FW store and perhaps tweak some other LP requirements. Most mission farmers would not survive the coming NPC changes which will eventually be applied to all FW rats
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I can understand that in theory, one side earning more isk would lead to a dominant power group that cannot be defeated, but there's simply too much practical evidence to the contrary that has accumulated over the past few months....

I see that fullblown plausible-denial politicians syndrome has set in.
- How do you explain the fact that Shakorites have had tier4 with easy tier5 spikes practically from beginning .. only hiccup the rust worshippers experienced was the massive blob that temporarily joined Amarr .. or in other words EXACTLY AS PREDICTED BY ME AND MINE PRIOR TO RELEASE.
Connecting dots and predicting human responses when massed is not strenuous in the slightest. Try it, start with the connecting bit .. sure you can borrow a smaller siblings coloring book Smile

The changes in Inferno should not have been made without the 99% other changes, you know the ones that will actually impact the way the war is fought in ways other than to dictate the wallet expectations .. had NPCs, Plexes, Geography and worthwhile upgrade paths been in place before FarmVille was released .. but too many forces with agendas and CCP too damn eager to please someone, anyone, out of shame and guilt from their failed WiS launch.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I suggested it, the devs announced it, and the new NPC's are being designed and scripted as we speak.


Holy Al Gore gaffe, Batman! You did NOT suggest it .. you supported it. The idea of a FW specific rat subset predates your time in pod .. picked up steam when me and mine necroed it seeing that CCP were willing to put in some actual work to sort it.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#394 - 2012-10-24 10:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I agree that 133% would be too high for the cap once it is released. We just chose that as a quick reduction for this release that balanced the desire for one side to try to take systems while the other side attempts to dplex in order to defend them. It gives both sides of each warzone a chance to respond to vulnerable systems.


You just forgot the thing that there is no reason to shoot bunkers anymore because you removed rewarding phase.

How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#395 - 2012-10-24 10:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
Bad Messenger wrote:


How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?



The only people getting hit hard by CCP are LP farmers and frankly I don't think they add anything to the game other then messing up the market.

So basically it wouldn't bother me if they left. Of course they wont as the vast majority are just alts of regular players who will go back top making "normal" incomes.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#396 - 2012-10-24 10:17:55 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:


How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?



The only people getting hit hard by CCP are LP farmers and frankly I don't think they add anything to the game other then messing up the market.

So basically it wouldn't bother me if they left. Of course they wont as the vast majority are just alts of regular players who will go back top making "normal" incomes.


No CCP ****** hard those who really care about system control on long term, farmers are happy already by sitting on their billions.

Now those who care about system control has to shoot bunkers without rewards because farmer who made billions are gone.
Iam a Spy2
solo and loveing it
#397 - 2012-10-24 11:35:04 UTC
After reading what goons pulled off in FW and all the lp gained that's what help mess up the market big time.

You ccp are more then a little late fix one problem with every high pay outs for fw wtich what ment to be more pvp then pve.

Any fix is welcome to get the market back to were it should be now if you could just fix the other stuff.

You need to think more like the players do when you build thing or goons Raping Fw lp stiff will happen again.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#398 - 2012-10-24 11:37:17 UTC
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Hans had made a suggestion at one point that PvP kills pay out at the max multiplier regardless of current faction tier to reward pewpew, any word on that possibility?


Any word on this?


It's an idea that we've considered closely but shelved for now, with the option of revisiting it. At this time we're planning on making the scaling affect all LP gains consistently.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Karasuma Akane
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#399 - 2012-10-24 11:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Karasuma Akane
System Capture Status percentages still have a problem post-patch. At today's downtime, the primary system I am defensively plexing in was at 83.8% and the secondary system was Stable. Immediately after downtime (as soon as TQ came back up) the primary system showed 85.2% and secondary showed 2.7%.

Petition was put in two days ago (pre-patch) regarding similar behavior, which hasn't been looked at yet: System Capture Status in primary system was at 65.8% contested at downtime, logging in immediately after downtime showed 71.2% contested. That was at least two hours of work by a fleet deplexing against heavy opposition, that just disappeared. Sad

I thank the Empress that all of the Minmatar-held systems that were flipped from Vulnerable to Lost prior to yesterday's downtime (through the heroic efforts of the combined Amarr militia forces) showed as properly conquered after the downtime patch. Big smile
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#400 - 2012-10-24 11:55:38 UTC
Quote:
A cap on Victory Points in Factional Warfare systems has been implemented. At this time the cap is 100 VPs past whatever threshold is needed to make a system vulnerable.