EVE General Discussion

Are local logistics in null done more in freighters or JF's? I ask because it seems that going directly to jump capable vessels completely removes freighter ganking at gates etc and shortens jump chains due to resource collection being more localized if manufacturing is consolidated in null. Other points of increased opportunity for loss may arise, but competent logistics doesn't seem to be one of them.

So then the Eve kill boards are just liars given the metric tons of crap thats blown up each week topping 10s and 100s of billions of isk of goods and materials coming from and to null sec? So I mean your saying all thats just a facade and a lie? And the null sec alliances that take part in those ganks arent providing the exact conflict Im speaking of? As a jump freighter or freighter full of goods is a lot better than a few barges or industrials being ganked up in null which is about all it MIGHT be.

The jump freighters that undock and jump, jump, jump seem to be in the minority when you look at the total volume leaving Jita 4-4 undock. I mean Ive sat there and watched for hours and days and weeks and years. Its a rather interesting metric imo as to whats going in and out, whos hauling what and so on and so forth. Why dont you go and sit on a few pipes and scan everything like I have just to figure out metrics yourself once in a while. Then do that for about 6-8 hours a day for several days every few months or so and just put it together instead of just telling me its all crap and that theres no conflict there at all surrounding these logistical movements.

RIP Vile Rat

I still think if people would look at the bigger picture rather then just KB. And people would stop shooting just for KB fluff we would see a lot more traffic in low / null sec.
But on a role play level it does make more since to have the safer zones have the indy , The whole low = the hood and null = 3rd world country while isn't 100% accurate it's pretty damn close.

We did come from a planet years ago so out society shouldn't be to far removed from what our roots are.
You wouldn't drive your BMW into the hoods on NYC or Compton to go to work
And you sure as hell wouldn't drive it through a lawless country that is based all around killing and stealing.

If people didn't act like hood rats out to spoil everyone's day you would see a **** ton more traffic.
Not saying everyone is like this but I am not to far off.
And I am not saying not to pvp I just find it hard to believe you can't find targets but this entire forums and even allot of this thread talks about the lack of targets.
If you are that hard up find each other everyone that is complaining about lack of targets go pvp each other.
Hell if I was into pvp I would try to get a system that is known for people who are looking to pvp.

Anyone who played UO back in the day will remember moonglow in feluca (or at least on catskills that was the pvp spot)
Start a PVP forum or community host player run tourneys be proactive about the situation instead of coming to the forums and ranting about something CCP will do nothing about.
This is EVE the game is what you make it. Stop camping in systems that you feel safe in you rant and rave about the high sec carebears go into some goonspace and orbit a pos (sorry goon your the only alli i know of in null like i said I am a casual high sec noob, but that doesn't mean I do not want to see EVE progress)
I am pretty sure they will shoot at you.

The reason we "negate the greater for the lesser" is because it is what is reality. While the theory is that ganking JFs etc has some potential for being "a conflict driver", the fact of the matter is, it isn't. Now you can wring your hands as much as you'd like, the fact of the matter is that the combination hisec + JFs + complete lack of sufficient and reasonable industrial capacity in nullsec means there's absolutely nothing to "drive conflicts over" about logistics.

As for "a few idiots who won't look at intel and get ganked by a roaming gang", there's a reason I said "where people would be", and not "where people are", because today people aren't keeping a big enough attack vector in nullsec for there to be any sort of "conflict driver" at all, everything's been outsourced to hisec. I'm talking about a future (which, admittedly, will never happen because CCP are just absolutely terrible at designing this **** game in a non-**** direction) where the space you take is taken for more reasons than just "hurr my name is on the map", it's taken to be somewhere you actually live.


Oh, so you want freighter convoys without titans, too?


hurr nerf people's ability to have any sort of defensive bonus at all durr



I'm not talking about how nullsec was (and is) right now, I'm talking about what would have to happen if an alliance's industry was actually happening in nullsec, i.e. where it would be interdictable. If they don't kick the roaming gangs out, they don't get to mine or rat and replace the ships which are lost, and we're back to square one with everything being imported from hisec and nullsec being a dead wasteland.


No war that I remember, in my 3+ years in null, has ever been won on the basis of logistics interdiction. What does this tell you?

"Boo Hoo, level 4 missions make too much ISK!"

Level 4 missions barely make any ISK compared to what is made in Nullsec DED 10/10s and other sites. Barely. Any. ISK.

If you can spend 20 minutes on a nullsec site and get out with 500M ISK worth of loot, there's no reason to complain about how much ISK L4's make and how OP Incursions are.

Your arguing that if in house your logistics lines would provide conflict through small gangs yet you negate the current reality, as based on actual information and killboards, that it isnt a factor at all?

Wars of attrition to "bleed the enemy dry of ships, material and moral, are not logistical based wars based on the alliances abilities to replenish and restock logistically? Wow really? Do you know anything about where the materials you fight with come and how supply and logistics are the backbone of any military and that without them any assault, Battle of the Bulge, or defense, Stalingrad or Battle of Britian, is epically important and doomed to fail. ALL of your battles have been won or lost on logistics if you looked at them. An army marches on its stomach.

This is a mainstay of ALL conflict throughout time in human history. Eve is no different. Go back to history and read up. Read about the logistics that have gone into the World Wars, particularly Hitle-rs blockade of britain and how Britian had to admit that it had at one point only enough supplies for one more week. Read up on teh Siege of Stalingrad and the supply issues. Read up on how the Russians pulled back all the infrastructure when the Germans advanced in Barbarossa to make it out of range of the German medium bombers and artillery. Then go back, or forward if you wish, through time and see. Eve is no different in this regard. This is my point and something CCP has picked up on by forcing people to MOVE stuff around to attack it. In fact this is what piracy is, attacking that movement.

Null sec is far from a dead wasteland. Some system that arent upgraded are only travel systems and others are never used, but that isnt the fault of anyone but null sec to NOT build them up to support life. Yes its expensive. Stop charging huge fees to go there and you might actually get people there. When this world settled areas, homesteaded and colonized it offered INCENTIVES and charged little to nothing to get people to move in and colonize. Atm in Canada a Manitoba town is giving away house lots and sections of land for $10 CAN, the requirement is to build a house on the land within a year. The last true homesteading was sections of land, 160 acres, for free if you settle it and build a residence and work the land. This was in Alberta and British Columbia in the 1950s and 1960s. This is still occuring around the world as you can see. It has been this way since the beginning of the world. Stop forcing huge rental fees and you might actually get people there who will pay the taxes of the stations like the do in highsec. Then provide them with a personal "concord" police force and you might have something. Give people highsec in null and youd have the people from high sec IN null.

I agree, what's in the freighters being ganked is important, as a metric to determine the effectiveness of disrupting or interdicting all the nullsec industry that has been outsourced to highsec. Since even the largest alliances in the game have freighter and jump freighter losses in the ones and twos over a period of months, we can safely conclude that in terms of providing direct 'conflict' against nullsec alliances, making industry effectively highsec exclusive has been a total failure, utterly compromised and indeed incorporated by nullsec logistics alts. But what about indirect conflict, or in other words, could the large alliances be suffering losses on their alliance-level logistics through alts?

Well for that, all one would need to do is look through all freighter losses in EVE total and screen for stuff indicative of alliance-level logistics. You know, moon goo, large quantities of items with a high mineral compression ratio, large orderly piles of PvP gear, huge quantities of POS fuel, sov modules, so on. Member of nullsec, NPC corp or 1-man corp, any freighter/jump freighter with such in their cargohold, for this argument will count as a nullsec logistics alt.

Given that, how many freighters/jump freighters died yesterday with any of the above in their cargohold?

The answer is: Zero.

7 freighters/jump freighters died on Monday: one was hauling ore in Immensea, one died in a wormhole, one was piloting a freighter with a FW character full of junk, one SONE guy got ganked with an empty Rhea in lowsec and 3 nullsec freighters died to wardecs (2 TRIBE, one AAA Citizens) but between the 3 carried a total of 13M isk in oxygen isotopes.

The reason why alliances like TRIBE and -A-'s renters lose freighters to wardecs and why much larger and resource-intensive alliances (like Goonswarm, TEST, PL, NCdot, -A-, SOLAR, even IRC) do not is because the more established alliances have alt corps and characters organized around using highsec's features to protect their war machines and logistics from any and all harm. If TRIBE makes it as an alliance, eventually they too will coordinate and develop an alt corp highsec logistics team and they too will no longer suffer any freighter lossmails in highsec whatsoever (renters however never develop on an alliance level, that being their nature).

The point is no nullsec alliance lost anything on an alliance level in highsec yesterday. Moving an obelisk full of dark ochre a handful of jumps in nullsec into a player-owned station with a crummy refine rate turned out to drive more 'conflict' and had more 'risk' then using highsec alts to supply all the fuel for all the POSs in nullsec, supplying every piece of trit and pyerite for every nullsec CTA ship, deliver every T3 ship for increasingly common T3 strategic cruiser doctrines yesterday. Combined.

So it's still rather silly to claim that having industry effectively monopolized by highsec is good because it 'provides conflict' and makes it 'riskier' for large, nullsec alliances.

The day before that? Only one jump freighter died total, anywhere.

Well there's three very good reasons imo that hisec trade hubs will always have a place in EVE even if manufacturing capacity in highsec was lowered to meet highsec's needs and null's was raised to be able to meet its own needs:

1) Moon minerals are unevenly distributed and there will always need to be a neutral place in order to acquire T2 mins they don't have access to to complete their orders. (even if the T2 ships themselves are no longer necessarily built there). This would also continue to drive conflict.
2) Same with faction ships and and items.
3) Hisec players will still need ships/goods as well (they just need nowhere near as many).

As for nullsec, the effects would also be different.

1) If nullsec industry became vital to the health and strength of nullsec alliances, then it would behoove them to take on specialized industrialists to do mining and other 'carebear' activities in their space (because it would tangibly benefit them to do so), as opposed to now where they are looked upon as a pointless liability, since pyerite and trit mined in highsec is cheaper, more plentiful and doesn't attract roaming fleets.

2) If holding nullsec space became a vital aspect of being part of EVE's manufacturing economy (let alone the tertiary retail nullsec economy that would follow), conflict and war over that space would increase far more then present, where a large amount of 0.0 space is barren of anything of value.

3) If a true tertiary economy developed in 0.0, nullsec itself would be necessarily much less authoritarian then it is present, locked in a perpetual feudal primary resource extraction economy (Provided you subscribe to capitalist ideology) 'Controlling' a nullsec trade hub in such a future might sound as absurd to those living in it as a single alliance 'controlling' Jita at present.


True, it's a shame. I'd be quite happy if all of EVE's players had the opportunity to take part in the epic player-generated stories that drew them into the game in the first place while not compromising their playstyle. But I guess someone has to grind for thousands of manhours mining heavily devalued mins in hisec, and someone's gotta make the quick cyno jump to a tech moon in 20-30 mins and back, that's the way it's gotta be. For your benefit, of course.

You forget all T3 stuff. But tbh the markets in high sec would collapse and all the market traders would be out accounts as I truly doubt you can argue that market trading in the hubs, alliance style, isnt a huge source of conflict and PvP. Look at what goons have done with their ice interdictions and market manipulations. Look at the plex markets, or the minerals markets a few months back now. You dont think this was caused or run by the large alliance level traders at all?

Having a true market that can supply all of the materials, minus those listed previously in house would be an interesting situation as to how much it would destroy the need for high sec. All told its rock, paper and scissors with the regions. Each MUST be dependent upon the others in some fashion or else it wont work. And atm its a good mix still. Though Id love to see more industry in null than previously but not to the levels you wish them to be as it would destroy too much of what makes high sec meaningful. Sure that wont sit well with null bears but thats the truth.

So speaking as one whos done the jumps to POSs and done the hours of trit mining both. I can see both pov if I try hard enough.