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Retribution Tengu OP?
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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#41 - 2012-10-23 16:42:55 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

*snip* while we're at it please show me the HAMgu that will put 1k DPS out to 60km. then we talk. oh and btw in case you didn't know: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.


Er... is there a short range gunnery system that puts out anywhere near that dps at 60k? I believe the whole point of the changes is to put the missiles performance and range in line with medium weapon systems.


Grrr.. I really need to get test re-down loaded and get some hands on experience with the changes.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
mama guru
Yazatas.
#42 - 2012-10-23 18:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:
[quote=Daniel Plain]Angry Carebear is Angry


: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.



Caldari Navy HAM, with GMP 5 will have a an Explosion Radius close to 76 meters, now you can either place a rigor because of frigates need a extra volly or you put in a range and Rof riggs which work on all enemies.

76 meter radius will rid you of all frigates that might want to kill you.


i stand corrected on that one; i forgot about the rigor and GMP changes. i would still like to see a fit that will project decent DPS to decent ranges. with my current EFT-fu, HAMs will get nowhere near a decent range.



I used 50-60k as an estimate, but you can currently break 50k with 1 implant and faction/t1 HAM's. Javelins push you to 74.3 km with three range rigs and their dps will be in line with T1 once retribution hits. Replace one T2 range rig with a T2 rigor and you wind up with like 62km Javelins doing 750 dps and at 41k rage scourge doing 1000 dps post patch.


Still, need HML Range and precision Data get anywhere anyways.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-10-23 23:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
mama guru wrote:

I used 50-60k as an estimate, but you can currently break 50k with 1 implant and faction/t1 HAM's. Javelins push you to 74.3 km with three range rigs and their dps will be in line with T1 once retribution hits. Replace one T2 range rig with a T2 rigor and you wind up with like 62km Javelins doing 750 dps and at 41k rage scourge doing 1000 dps post patch.


Still, need HML Range and precision Data get anywhere anyways.


you cannot afford to lose the rigor rigs. even with them, the current tengu kill speed is slowed down by elite frigates significantly.
if you sacrifice the rigors for HAM range, a cruise CNR will be able to bring more dps at larger range, with selectable damage types, a full set of drones AND identical damage application to anything above a frigate. and that's a raven; i'm not even talking pirate battleships yet.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-10-23 23:04:06 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

*snip* while we're at it please show me the HAMgu that will put 1k DPS out to 60km. then we talk. oh and btw in case you didn't know: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.


Er... is there a short range gunnery system that puts out anywhere near that dps at 60k? I believe the whole point of the changes is to put the missiles performance and range in line with medium weapon systems.


Grrr.. I really need to get test re-down loaded and get some hands on experience with the changes.

i never argued that there is. my point is that this is what it would take to keep the tengu among the top mission runners.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#45 - 2012-10-24 00:14:58 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:

I used 50-60k as an estimate, but you can currently break 50k with 1 implant and faction/t1 HAM's. Javelins push you to 74.3 km with three range rigs and their dps will be in line with T1 once retribution hits. Replace one T2 range rig with a T2 rigor and you wind up with like 62km Javelins doing 750 dps and at 41k rage scourge doing 1000 dps post patch.


Still, need HML Range and precision Data get anywhere anyways.


you cannot afford to lose the rigor rigs. even with them, the current tengu kill speed is slowed down by elite frigates significantly.
if you sacrifice the rigors for HAM range, a cruise CNR will be able to bring more dps at larger range, with selectable damage types, a full set of drones AND identical damage application to anything above a frigate. and that's a raven; i'm not even talking pirate battleships yet.



Now you are seemingly upset that a t3 CRUISER may no longer out perform a NAVY BATTLESHIP on L4 missions?

I'm afraid you lost me right there.

I understand being worried that they may over-nerf hmls, but the Tengu has been in a place on the food chain that it does not belong for a long time. From what I have seen so far at least, it will still perform amazingly well, but now it MAY not out perform ships 2 classes higher than itself. This is balance, not game break.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
mama guru
Yazatas.
#46 - 2012-10-24 12:55:03 UTC
I agree, the tengu will be just one step below the mach/CNR as it is now but still way ahead of anything else for serp/angel and gurista stuff.

CNR/Machariel>Tengu>SNI for blitzing

I've been toying with the idea of an MWD Ham tengu aswell, only hard parts are tank and range

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-10-24 13:40:10 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:

I used 50-60k as an estimate, but you can currently break 50k with 1 implant and faction/t1 HAM's. Javelins push you to 74.3 km with three range rigs and their dps will be in line with T1 once retribution hits. Replace one T2 range rig with a T2 rigor and you wind up with like 62km Javelins doing 750 dps and at 41k rage scourge doing 1000 dps post patch.


Still, need HML Range and precision Data get anywhere anyways.


you cannot afford to lose the rigor rigs. even with them, the current tengu kill speed is slowed down by elite frigates significantly.
if you sacrifice the rigors for HAM range, a cruise CNR will be able to bring more dps at larger range, with selectable damage types, a full set of drones AND identical damage application to anything above a frigate. and that's a raven; i'm not even talking pirate battleships yet.



Now you are seemingly upset that a t3 CRUISER may no longer out perform a NAVY BATTLESHIP on L4 missions?

I'm afraid you lost me right there.

I understand being worried that they may over-nerf hmls, but the Tengu has been in a place on the food chain that it does not belong for a long time. From what I have seen so far at least, it will still perform amazingly well, but now it MAY not out perform ships 2 classes higher than itself. This is balance, not game break.

~Z



and another mouthbreather who accuses me of being sad/upset/angry. please notice the topic of this discussion and the fact that all i do is argue on topic.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-10-24 13:44:58 UTC
mama guru wrote:
I agree, the tengu will be just one step below the mach/CNR as it is now but still way ahead of anything else for serp/angel and gurista stuff.

CNR/Machariel>Tengu>SNI for blitzing

I've been toying with the idea of an MWD Ham tengu aswell, only hard parts are tank and range


i disagree very much with the bolded part of your statement. all in all, the current tengu is at least on par with the CNR; if you are blitzing, it will beat it hands down. this will change after the nerf, as the HAMgu will lack either the range or damage application to finish missions quickly.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#49 - 2012-10-24 15:16:53 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:

I used 50-60k as an estimate, but you can currently break 50k with 1 implant and faction/t1 HAM's. Javelins push you to 74.3 km with three range rigs and their dps will be in line with T1 once retribution hits. Replace one T2 range rig with a T2 rigor and you wind up with like 62km Javelins doing 750 dps and at 41k rage scourge doing 1000 dps post patch.


Still, need HML Range and precision Data get anywhere anyways.


you cannot afford to lose the rigor rigs. even with them, the current tengu kill speed is slowed down by elite frigates significantly.
if you sacrifice the rigors for HAM range, a cruise CNR will be able to bring more dps at larger range, with selectable damage types, a full set of drones AND identical damage application to anything above a frigate. and that's a raven; i'm not even talking pirate battleships yet.



Now you are seemingly upset that a t3 CRUISER may no longer out perform a NAVY BATTLESHIP on L4 missions?

I'm afraid you lost me right there.

I understand being worried that they may over-nerf hmls, but the Tengu has been in a place on the food chain that it does not belong for a long time. From what I have seen so far at least, it will still perform amazingly well, but now it MAY not out perform ships 2 classes higher than itself. This is balance, not game break.

~Z



and another mouthbreather who accuses me of being sad/upset/angry. please notice the topic of this discussion and the fact that all i do is argue on topic.



Ahh, my bad. Let me correct.... "you are COMPLAINING aboutRoll"... in place of 'seemingly upset that'. Must get the correct spin on the words.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-10-24 15:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
neither am i complaining about the changes, at least not in this thread. please pull your head out of your lower intestines and actually read what people write.

OP: retribution HAM tengu will be an awesome mission runner!
me: no it won't, for reasons A, B and C.
random trolls: LOL U SAD BRO? CRY SOME MORE RAILGUNS SUCK SO HMLS MUST SUCK!
me: ???

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#51 - 2012-10-24 18:28:13 UTC
Actually I see you: Tengu HML is getting nerfed! omg not outperforming BS's anymore. Dont change it because of A B C.
Others: It wont be that bad. HAM will be good. For reasons A B C
You: No it wont for reasons A B C ... and tend to follow it with insults.

I used the word upset initially trying to not be offensive (even though you are all over the place obviously truly bothered by the nerfs incoming to HMLs. Most of the people on these forums read most of the threads, so comments and opinions to tend to spill over). You are the one calling out most of the people that don't agree with you as trolls or tossing random insults around, which changes it from a discussion into an argument.

Eh, you're obviously passionate about this one, and are not one of the normally hostile trolls we do have here, so I will say this. If you feel I was insulting you, the intention was misread. Take it as you will.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-10-24 21:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Daniel Plain wrote:
neither am i complaining about the changes, at least not in this thread. please pull your head out of your lower intestines and actually read what people write.

OP: retribution HAM tengu will be an awesome mission runner!
me: no it won't, for reasons A, B and C.
random trolls: LOL U SAD BRO? CRY SOME MORE RAILGUNS SUCK SO HMLS MUST SUCK!
me: ???



If numbers are set for next HAM's stats you would be silly to change your actual blitzing Tengu for anything else than Lokii.
You're supposed to rush specific targets, kills them "yesterday" and jump.

Well next Tengu can do that with HAM's, and if ship stats like missile speed stays witch means you will be able to throw your HAM's for about 50km, not even accounting TE changes.
You guys really need to realise how huge buffs short range missiles are getting if they get exactly what is said in dev blog/actual numbers + changes to some mods that WILL affect missiles directly.
ATM you can only make a couple assumptions with fake EFT/PYFA numbers that DO NOT account some important features changes+add a couple bugs and it's silliness fest party.

HM's get nerf? -hell yes! It's about time they get in line with other med long range weapons, this is good tbh !!
Is this a serious nerf to caldari/missile ships? -hell no!! NO NO NO NO and double fecking NO !!

L2READ ! (I'm even the worst on reading, not being English native...)

brb
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-10-25 00:29:36 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
neither am i complaining about the changes, at least not in this thread. please pull your head out of your lower intestines and actually read what people write.

OP: retribution HAM tengu will be an awesome mission runner!
me: no it won't, for reasons A, B and C.
random trolls: LOL U SAD BRO? CRY SOME MORE RAILGUNS SUCK SO HMLS MUST SUCK!
me: ???



If numbers are set for next HAM's stats you would be silly to change your actual blitzing Tengu for anything else than Lokii.
You're supposed to rush specific targets, kills them "yesterday" and jump.

Well next Tengu can do that with HAM's, and if ship stats like missile speed stays witch means you will be able to throw your HAM's for about 50km, not even accounting TE changes.
You guys really need to realise how huge buffs short range missiles are getting if they get exactly what is said in dev blog/actual numbers + changes to some mods that WILL affect missiles directly.
ATM you can only make a couple assumptions with fake EFT/PYFA numbers that DO NOT account some important features changes+add a couple bugs and it's silliness fest party.

HM's get nerf? -hell yes! It's about time they get in line with other med long range weapons, this is good tbh !!
Is this a serious nerf to caldari/missile ships? -hell no!! NO NO NO NO and double fecking NO !!

L2READ ! (I'm even the worst on reading, not being English native...)


too bad your 'kill yesterday' trget is usually 70-80km away...

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-10-26 10:49:53 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
neither am i complaining about the changes, at least not in this thread. please pull your head out of your lower intestines and actually read what people write.

OP: retribution HAM tengu will be an awesome mission runner!
me: no it won't, for reasons A, B and C.
random trolls: LOL U SAD BRO? CRY SOME MORE RAILGUNS SUCK SO HMLS MUST SUCK!
me: ???



If numbers are set for next HAM's stats you would be silly to change your actual blitzing Tengu for anything else than Lokii.
You're supposed to rush specific targets, kills them "yesterday" and jump.

Well next Tengu can do that with HAM's, and if ship stats like missile speed stays witch means you will be able to throw your HAM's for about 50km, not even accounting TE changes.
You guys really need to realise how huge buffs short range missiles are getting if they get exactly what is said in dev blog/actual numbers + changes to some mods that WILL affect missiles directly.
ATM you can only make a couple assumptions with fake EFT/PYFA numbers that DO NOT account some important features changes+add a couple bugs and it's silliness fest party.

HM's get nerf? -hell yes! It's about time they get in line with other med long range weapons, this is good tbh !!
Is this a serious nerf to caldari/missile ships? -hell no!! NO NO NO NO and double fecking NO !!

L2READ ! (I'm even the worst on reading, not being English native...)


too bad your 'kill yesterday' trget is usually 70-80km away...



It's not really a problem if you consider all HAM changes+TE+fitting +Implant

brb
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-10-26 12:59:39 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:


too bad your 'kill yesterday' trget is usually 70-80km away...



It's not really a problem if you consider all HAM changes+TE+fitting +Implant


the TE changes are postponed. the implant will override your HAM damage implant, the rigs will gimp your damage application.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#56 - 2012-10-26 14:57:16 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
What about TE/TC? Those could make your hams more effective. Unless they have stated that it isnt going to happen in this patch.


Not happening. Rather disappointing really.

GMP will apply to all missiles though. So there's that.


Not happening with Retribution 1.0? Or not happening ever?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#57 - 2012-10-26 15:02:46 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
What about TE/TC? Those could make your hams more effective. Unless they have stated that it isnt going to happen in this patch.


Not happening. Rather disappointing really.

GMP will apply to all missiles though. So there's that.


Not happening with Retribution 1.0? Or not happening ever?


Official word:

Quote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
Tracking mod and disruptor changes moved out of this release until the first set of changes settles a bit


Hard to say what that means exactly. Definitely not this release with a possibility of never?
mama guru
Yazatas.
#58 - 2012-10-26 15:16:21 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:
I agree, the tengu will be just one step below the mach/CNR as it is now but still way ahead of anything else for serp/angel and gurista stuff.

CNR/Machariel>Tengu>SNI for blitzing

I've been toying with the idea of an MWD Ham tengu aswell, only hard parts are tank and range


i disagree very much with the bolded part of your statement. all in all, the current tengu is at least on par with the CNR; if you are blitzing, it will beat it hands down. this will change after the nerf, as the HAMgu will lack either the range or damage application to finish missions quickly.


We are in agreement then, "as it is now" was with the future patch in sight.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-10-26 20:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Risien Drogonne
Daniel Plain wrote:


i stand corrected on that one; i forgot about the rigor and GMP changes. i would still like to see a fit that will project decent DPS to decent ranges. with my current EFT-fu, HAMs will get nowhere near a decent range.

This IS still just a medium weapon system. It seems like you expect it to outperform all other medium weapon systems by a factor of 5, and compete solidly with large weapons. You keep using DPS numbers from battleships. Why?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-10-26 22:12:29 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:


i stand corrected on that one; i forgot about the rigor and GMP changes. i would still like to see a fit that will project decent DPS to decent ranges. with my current EFT-fu, HAMs will get nowhere near a decent range.

This IS still just a medium weapon system. It seems like you expect it to outperform all other medium weapon systems by a factor of 5, and compete solidly with large weapons. You keep using DPS numbers from battleships. Why?

for the 100000000th time: i am not saying the tengu SHOULD outperform battleships. the topic is whether or not the HAM tengu will be 'OP' in hisec PvE. i argue it will not. random trolls and idiots like you try to put words in my mouth. i correct them. another day, another post.

I should buy an Ishtar.