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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
#681 - 2012-10-23 22:10:06 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Parsee789 wrote:
New changes are much better and make more sense.

You should just remove that silly 10% cap usage for lasers bonus and make all amarr ships have a higher cap recharge rate and replace that cap usage bonus for a better bonus.

After all Amarr ships should have superior capacitor to other races in both size and average recharge amount per second, just like how minmatar ships have superior speed and agility.


Quoting this purely for the Iagreewholeheartedly factor. Big smile



sure thing just make tech I ammo consumable and i am game...


Make lasers have better tracking, use no cap, have selectable damage types, 3 tiers of short range per size, easy fitting, have t1 ammo that boosts tracking

Then we can talk about consumable ammo.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#682 - 2012-10-23 22:27:53 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
With its MWD active, a shield Rupture is now slower and no more agile than a shield vexor. That seems pretty wrong given that the vexor is crushingly superior in terms of dps:tank.


Oh god, a Minmatar ship isn't top of the heap anymore!

Rupture still has better damage projection due to falloff and all of the pros of autocannons on it's side, you do realize, and the Vexor will need that speed in order to be a decent blaster ship.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#683 - 2012-10-23 22:54:20 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Oh god, a Minmatar ship isn't top of the heap anymore!
Something must be done about this!!!1111oneone
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#684 - 2012-10-23 22:56:08 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
Anyway just for thread lulz, a maxdps Vexor (with terrible t2 ammo) will actually do more than 1k dps while still having tackle gear, 14k ehp and going 2,7k m/s. \o/

14kehp is absolutely not enough to survive *any* threat at blaster range.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#685 - 2012-10-23 22:58:09 UTC
And lets not forget that shield vexors are really really bad...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#686 - 2012-10-23 23:37:57 UTC
Ah, some nice changes there Foz - the Maller is going to be a beast now, and the ruppy won't overshadow the stabber with speed and flexibility. I think I would have preferred the rupture to join the other matari ships in becoming a shield tanker in terms of slot and bonus arrangement though. Why they have a few armour ships in a fleet filled with shield and speed is beyond me.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#687 - 2012-10-24 01:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
The only issue with that is that if the bonus wasn't a significant enough bonus to lasers, then people would strap on projectiles and have the ridiculous cap-boats. MWD's, points, and reppers all running pretty well close to stable because the cap was meant to run the guns, etc. Some strange things could happen, and I'm not sure if it would be good strange, or bad strange.

'Course, same could be said for the 'Matar ships, because the inherently high speed means they can save slots usually used for Nano's and the sort, but should they choose to use the slots for Nano's and the sort, they can get some ridiculously fast ships. And that doesn't inherently imbalance them...

This, and amarr don't need to reload, or even if they do, they do it so fast, capacitor is the only thing limiting their long term dps. As long as capacitor go, they never stop firing, and they never run out of ammo with T1.

PS : Oh, and fixing batteries could be cool for neut defense.



Truly something needs to be done for neut defense, with so many ships having them now. I think Amarr may be hands down the most neut vulnerable race in game. With very low cap I can keep firing hybrids. With very low cap my lasers kick sparks and make little grinding sounds like my kids toy gun, but don't do anything else. o.0

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#688 - 2012-10-24 02:15:25 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

This, and amarr don't need to reload, or even if they do, they do it so fast, capacitor is the only thing limiting their long term dps. As long as capacitor go, they never stop firing, and they never run out of ammo with T1.

PS : Oh, and fixing batteries could be cool for neut defense.



Truly something needs to be done for neut defense, with so many ships having them now. I think Amarr may be hands down the most neut vulnerable race in game. With very low cap I can keep firing hybrids. With very low cap my lasers kick sparks and make little grinding sounds like my kids toy gun, but don't do anything else. o.0


Oh, I completely agree. It would be nice if they had enough mid slots to mount cap boosters without sacrificing their tackle or prop, but that's unlikely.

The buff to the Maller's cap should do wonders for its guns, however it is true that this does nothing against neuts.

And of course, though this is often mocked and laughed at, and even called useless, the old bonus of cap use was nice for this, as it often reduced the cap use to near hybrid levels. I don't know if they can really feasibly fix this without breaking them in a lot of situations.
Alara IonStorm
#689 - 2012-10-24 03:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Goldensaver wrote:

And of course, though this is often mocked and laughed at, and even called useless, the old bonus of cap use was nice for this, as it often reduced the cap use to near hybrid levels. I don't know if they can really feasibly fix this without breaking them in a lot of situations.

Heavy Pulse Laser II -50% Cap Bonus -1.3 Cap per Second.
Heavy Neutron Blaster II -0.8 Cap Per Second.
Heavy Beam Laser II -50 Cap Bonus -1.9 Cap per second.
250mm Rail Gun II -1.1 Cap Per Second.

Even with the 50% Cap Use Bonus Lasers are about 50-75% Higher then Hybrids in Cap Use across all types and sizes.

My thought, fold the 50% bonus into the Lasers base stats, 50-75% More Cap use is enough IMO. Then give the ships that lose the Cap Use Bonus real bonuses.

Edit: rushed numbers a bit.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#690 - 2012-10-24 03:55:16 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

And of course, though this is often mocked and laughed at, and even called useless, the old bonus of cap use was nice for this, as it often reduced the cap use to near hybrid levels. I don't know if they can really feasibly fix this without breaking them in a lot of situations.

Heavy Pulse Laser II -50% Cap Bonus -1.8 Cap per Second.
Heavy Neutron Blaster II -0.9 Cap Per Second.
Heavy Beam Laser II -50 Cap Bonus -2.5 Cap per second.
250mm Rail Gun II -1.1 Cap Per Second.

Even with the 50% Cap Use Bonus Lasers are about Double Hybrids in Cap Use across all types. Across sizes too except small lasers it is around 60% higher then Hybrids with the bonus.

My thought, fold the 50% bonus into the Lasers base stats, 60-100% More Cap use is enough IMO. Then give the ships that lose the Cap Use Bonus real bonuses.


Didn't quite realize that. But I think the issue with that is that it would make lasers too much more viable on other hulls. I like having my shiny Amarr ships that are the only ones that shoot lasers.
Alara IonStorm
#691 - 2012-10-24 04:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Goldensaver wrote:

Didn't quite realize that. But I think the issue with that is that it would make lasers too much more viable on other hulls. I like having my shiny Amarr ships that are the only ones that shoot lasers.

If by other hulls you mean the Myrmidon then yes... or maybe since CCP stated that they want the Brutix to be the Active Tanker so it's like 10-1 they'll Domi out the Myrm.

Seriously though what other hulls do you think sane people would put Lasers on when they have their own weapons bonuses and you can just use bonused Amarr ships instead?
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#692 - 2012-10-24 04:30:57 UTC
Agreed Alara. There must be other options other than losing a weapon bonus slot just to be able to use the weapon system. I understood when they did it initially, but with all of the weapon changes that have happened, unbonused lasers are no longer ahead of the other weapon systems as they once were.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#693 - 2012-10-24 04:37:16 UTC
You're going to have a hard time fitting high pg/cpu lasers on non-amarr ships AND have enough fitting for anything else.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#694 - 2012-10-24 05:54:07 UTC
Thanks Fozzie! You're really reliable and my favourite dev too :D
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#695 - 2012-10-24 06:10:48 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Didn't quite realize that. But I think the issue with that is that it would make lasers too much more viable on other hulls. I like having my shiny Amarr ships that are the only ones that shoot lasers.

If by other hulls you mean the Myrmidon then yes... or maybe since CCP stated that they want the Brutix to be the Active Tanker so it's like 10-1 they'll Domi out the Myrm.

Seriously though what other hulls do you think sane people would put Lasers on when they have their own weapons bonuses and you can just use bonused Amarr ships instead?


Kiting ships because of Scorch?

That's the only thing I can think of though. You're right, I didn't think it through, apparently.

The balance done to the weapon systems really do give you a lot of choice, just choose the right hull for the guns.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#696 - 2012-10-24 06:16:48 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
With its MWD active, a shield Rupture is now slower and no more agile than a shield vexor. That seems pretty wrong given that the vexor is crushingly superior in terms of dps:tank.


Oh god, a Minmatar ship isn't top of the heap anymore!

Rupture still has better damage projection due to falloff and all of the pros of autocannons on it's side, you do realize, and the Vexor will need that speed in order to be a decent blaster ship.


In which case you no doubt support seeing the Moa given the same speed and agility plus a huge decrease in mass to match, correct?
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#697 - 2012-10-24 06:40:10 UTC
Mister CCP Fozzie.

First Great job.

But again the Amarr bonus is a joke (10% Bonus to Energy turret).

I will try to explain why :

First : Do you believe it's a bonus to have the possibility to use our guns ...

Second : When you have to bonus like the maller or abaddon ( Cap and resistance). It's often better to fits some other weapon then laser.

Example :
Abaddon Arty
Maller autocannon

Now with the new maller, it's completly stupid to put laser on them because you don't have dps, you have a **** of tracking etc.
when i see the new maller without dps bonus, it's clear that the best idea it's to fits them in mwd / blaster.

Remove the stupid bonus on the cap for Amarr and put some bonus for dps (ajust the guns to have the same dps then now).
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#698 - 2012-10-24 07:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
hello

thank you for these last changes , looks a lot better for the maller now.

one question though: Are you trying to move away from utility highs at all?

it seems to me that the only ones capable of having utility highs now are the minmatar due to their split weapon systems.
(who will put launchers on a ruppie or stabber unless they are completey gank fit , seriously...)

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#699 - 2012-10-24 07:34:51 UTC
Alghara wrote:
Mister CCP Fozzie.

First Great job.

But again the Amarr bonus is a joke (10% Bonus to Energy turret).

I will try to explain why :

First : Do you believe it's a bonus to have the possibility to use our guns ...

Second : When you have to bonus like the maller or abaddon ( Cap and resistance). It's often better to fits some other weapon then laser.

Example :
Abaddon Arty
Maller autocannon

Now with the new maller, it's completly stupid to put laser on them because you don't have dps, you have a **** of tracking etc.
when i see the new maller without dps bonus, it's clear that the best idea it's to fits them in mwd / blaster.

Remove the stupid bonus on the cap for Amarr and put some bonus for dps (ajust the guns to have the same dps then now).



What?

The new Maller does have a damage bonus. It lost the cap use bonus. And they seem to be shifting over to the damage bonus theme for them.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#700 - 2012-10-24 07:48:09 UTC
Alghara wrote:
Now with the new maller, it's completly stupid to put laser on them because you don't have dps, you have a **** of tracking etc.
when i see the new maller without dps bonus, it's clear that the best idea it's to fits them in mwd / blaster.


Have you actually looked at the Maller after the second round of changes? It's a real beast. It will kill any other cruiser not specifically fit to fight it.