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Dev Blog: Fast Forward

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Author
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#341 - 2012-10-23 15:23:53 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As of the server starting, we ensured that no system was over 133% vulnerable. There's no cap at this time, but if you offensive plex one of those systems past 133% you won't get any reward for doing so.

So you reset everything to 133%, and after that the systems can still be "overplexed" past 133% ?



If I understand right, they can be overplexed further, but there's no LP reward for it anymore. Of course, there could be strategic reasons to overplex even if there's no LP in it.

I can't think of any to be honest. It is more advantageous now to take the system and make ISK defensive plexing it.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#342 - 2012-10-23 15:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Marc Callan wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As of the server starting, we ensured that no system was over 133% vulnerable. There's no cap at this time, but if you offensive plex one of those systems past 133% you won't get any reward for doing so.

So you reset everything to 133%, and after that the systems can still be "overplexed" past 133% ?


It looks like for the moment yes, but with no reward for it what would be the point?

Interestingly Amarr seem to have tripled the amount of systems they control, and Minmatar have dropped from nearly Tier 5 to just barely holding onto Tier 3 in a few hours time.


Well, maybe there's no LP reward, but if you're strategically minded, and you know a system that your militia wants to flip but that the bunker-bashers can't get to right away ... one of those things where you take one for the team, you know?

That's a bit of a wasted effort don't you think?

If it's going to be a couple of days before you can flip the system your time is better spent making ISK elsewhere for the most part and just "maintaining" the vulnerable state when necessary.

While we were discussing this Amarr just increased their percentage again.

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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#343 - 2012-10-23 15:39:48 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

While we were discussing this Amarr just increased their percentage again.


LIES!

Everyone knows CCP favors the Minmatar!

*rabble rabble*

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#344 - 2012-10-23 16:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
And I see all of the Amarr farmers are beginning to concentrate on defensive plexing the most heavily contested Amarr systems.

It's amazing what can happen when the desire to line your own pockets actually helps protect the interests of your faction, instead of it being more profitable to try and milk your opponents vulnerable systems instead of flipping them.

Last night Amarr was at roughly 2%, now they are at 9% and rising rapidly (2% in the last hour). Minmatar was at around 79%, now they are at 41%.

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Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#345 - 2012-10-23 16:32:32 UTC
DexterShark wrote:
What happens if there's no real tears and everyone just shrugs and agrees this change is for the best? What then? Can we get some folks to come in and roleplay some tears?


I can do this, but will need to create a new alt because I almost cheered at my laptop screen when I read the blog last night then wrote a wall of text (a.k.a. blog post) to celebrate the news.

But as a professional RP'er, it can be done if the tears bucket runneth dry. RP is all about saying stuff you may not really believe after all. ;)

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

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Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#346 - 2012-10-23 16:35:35 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:

To take a Major by killing NPC’s takes a big PVE commitment in ship fittings, I have a few Ishtar fits that can do it and still fit tackle but this is almost certain to be best done as a group now. That is not a terrible idea but the way the rewards share mean that you will be better off running minors in PVP frigates/destroyers solo.


Major plexs aren't meant to be solo'd. That's the point.
There's no need for for PVE specific fits at all. Use your PVP ship. If that isn't enough to take the plex, bring friends.

Quote:

Still feel abandoning the tier system is a mistake, it has been driving conflict until you announced nerfing it, and you could have easily tweaked the levels to even out the extremes instead. The underdog sides will find life very tricky income wise now.


The 'dump lp at tier 5' system was not driving conflict of any kind.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#347 - 2012-10-23 16:38:55 UTC
Axl Borlara wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:

To take a Major by killing NPC’s takes a big PVE commitment in ship fittings, I have a few Ishtar fits that can do it and still fit tackle but this is almost certain to be best done as a group now. That is not a terrible idea but the way the rewards share mean that you will be better off running minors in PVP frigates/destroyers solo.


Major plexs aren't meant to be solo'd. That's the point.
There's no need for for PVE specific fits at all. Use your PVP ship. If that isn't enough to take the plex, bring friends.

Quote:

Still feel abandoning the tier system is a mistake, it has been driving conflict until you announced nerfing it, and you could have easily tweaked the levels to even out the extremes instead. The underdog sides will find life very tricky income wise now.


The 'dump lp at tier 5' system was not driving conflict of any kind.


and now there is something driving conflict?
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#348 - 2012-10-23 17:00:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As of the server starting, we ensured that no system was over 133% vulnerable. There's no cap at this time, but if you offensive plex one of those systems past 133% you won't get any reward for doing so.


Again posting before reading the whole thread...

What was the reasoning for using 133% vulnerable (for both this 'reset' and any future cap) instead of 100%?

I thought the idea was that as a system nears vulnerable, (anti)bunker busting fleets were raised.
The big ships then fought it out to attack/defend the bunker, while at the same time, smaller ships on both sides would be trying to take plexs to hold/reduce vulnerability.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#349 - 2012-10-23 17:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
I agree that 133% would be too high for the cap once it is released. We just chose that as a quick reduction for this release that balanced the desire for one side to try to take systems while the other side attempts to dplex in order to defend them. It gives both sides of each warzone a chance to respond to vulnerable systems.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Zippoface
Inglorious-Basterds
#350 - 2012-10-23 17:31:39 UTC
Though I will probably aggree with the current change and accept and love them eventually I have a few non-constructive comments which probably just echoes whats already been said.

I do not aggree with making that kind of changes ahead of time with no notice at all. Some us hard working fw players have been waiting to cash out lp (we dont have the luxury to go into Tier 5 every week as one other faction has), and the potential income has just been halfed by current flash-changes.

If you would have announced the changes a mere 7 days ahead I would expect a sudden and rapid increase in factions fighting over control.

Come on CCP, give us a change to respond - AND DOBLE MY DAMN LP POOL !

\Zippo
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#351 - 2012-10-23 18:01:29 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Susan Black wrote:
The defensive/offensive idea Hans is talking about is making it so that you have to shoot rats in defensive plexes as well. I think this is in response to some concern about the ability to farm defensive plexes without the risk of NPC interference.
If someone wants to farm defensive plexes, more power to them. The payout is pretty ****, per Fozzie's equaltion.

LP Gain = Base value of plex * (Contested percentage of the system/100) * 0.75

They payout strictly from the T2 base (modified downwards by contested percentage) ... there is no warzone control scaling. So the ISK/hour potential is very low. Thus, there is no real problem here.


Actually (and unfortunately) that's not the case.

The d-plex payout and (again, unfortunately) mission payouts are both affected by warzone control.

Worse: vulnerable systems count as "120% contested".

So:

Major plex: 25k lp.
Vulnerable system: 120% modifier to d-plex payout.
Defensive plex: 75% of 'normal' payout
Tier3 (frex) warzone control: 75% bonus to payout.

25klp x 1.2 x .75 x 1.75 = 39k lp for 'running' a defensive major plex in a vulnerable system.

Or do a level 4 mission with tier3 WZ control and get about 51k lp. Either way, not great. Don't think either of these should be adjusted by WZ control.

... and... HOW is it you can be more than 100% contested? Is the system so contested it's leaking over to other systems?
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#352 - 2012-10-23 18:04:40 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Garr Earthbender wrote:
OK, so here's a question I have. It's based out of a lack of knowledge in the 1st place.

Is there a currently a cap on how over-contested a system can be? And if there is no cap, will there be a cap in this new system? Currently it's an effort in futility to try and decontest a vulnerable system. I think.


This patch will stop payouts when vulnerable, when Retribution comes it will also end "overplexing" and remove the ability to create a big buffer that the defender has to chew through.


Clarification: it stops payouts in vulnerable systems for OFFENSIVE plexing. D-plexing in a vulnerable system pays, and pay extremely well.
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#353 - 2012-10-23 18:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ugleb
Bad Messenger wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
To implement this earlier is biggest fuckup CCP can make in FW ever
If that is the case, then it would be great to hear why it is so in your opinion. Just saying that you think something would be bad doesn't help our developers to figure out eventual issues.



I do not see any reason why new fw will work at all.

There is no reason to attack plex at all.
- If you think that people will take any plex on tier 1 if enemy side has example tier3 , why would they ?
- LP is practically worthless after this update because you can not really compete with all those stockpiled tier5 items.
- Defending is so much easier, you can still use 1 day alts for defending.

finally i doubt there is not even contested systems to defend.

There is not driving force for whole militia like tier 5 bonused shop is now.

so people go back to missioning and FW system warfare is over.

You are nerfing FW too hard because you 1st boosted it too much.

And why to implement it on 1 day warning when it has been 6 month broken, now all systems will be on some side and no one can implement their plans.

Maybe Hans want to make sure that minmatar will not be on trouble.


The motivation to offensively plex, even if you are on the currently losing side, is to to take systems and so increase your control tier. If you are not prepared to even try to do that then you really are not cut out to play in a competitive environment. The whole point is that you try to win your rewards by overcoming the opposition.

If that is not for you then yes, go back to mission running, ratting or high-sec Incursions. You will probably be happier.

Even if you do receive fewer LP at lower tiers, you are still receiving LP. Under the 'Retribution' system the relative value of the LP for low tier militias has actually increased thanks to fixed prices. No longer does your militia need to struggle to reach tier 3 or 4, you get constant tier 3 prices so can cash out at any time.

On the other hand, the militia with the upper hand no longer gets the insanely cheap Inferno tier 5 prices. I think that the new system should make lower tiers less of a relative hardship than they were before.

The removal of AFK offensive plexing tactics combined with the elimination of Inferno tier pricing will result in a reduction of farming alts in the Minmatar/Caldari factions which should give the Amarr/Gallente militias reduced plexing competition and a more level playing field. That right there should give the underdogs a boost in pushing back and reaching beyond tier 1.

As for Hans giving the minnies an edge with the surprise deployment, last night the Amarr had over half of the war zone in vulnerable and had begun flipping systems over to their control. Post-patch they could easily be holding a substantial chunk of the territory and most think that the new mechanics will make it harder to take systems. That sounds like the Amarr win from the timing of this to me....

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#354 - 2012-10-23 18:17:59 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Susan Black wrote:
The defensive/offensive idea Hans is talking about is making it so that you have to shoot rats in defensive plexes as well. I think this is in response to some concern about the ability to farm defensive plexes without the risk of NPC interference.
If someone wants to farm defensive plexes, more power to them. The payout is pretty ****, per Fozzie's equaltion.

LP Gain = Base value of plex * (Contested percentage of the system/100) * 0.75

They payout strictly from the T2 base (modified downwards by contested percentage) ... there is no warzone control scaling. So the ISK/hour potential is very low. Thus, there is no real problem here.


Actually (and unfortunately) that's not the case.

The d-plex payout and (again, unfortunately) mission payouts are both affected by warzone control.

Worse: vulnerable systems count as "120% contested".

So:

Major plex: 25k lp.
Vulnerable system: 120% modifier to d-plex payout.
Defensive plex: 75% of 'normal' payout
Tier3 (frex) warzone control: 75% bonus to payout.

25klp x 1.2 x .75 x 1.75 = 39k lp for 'running' a defensive major plex in a vulnerable system.

Or do a level 4 mission with tier3 WZ control and get about 51k lp. Either way, not great. Don't think either of these should be adjusted by WZ control.

... and... HOW is it you can be more than 100% contested? Is the system so contested it's leaking over to other systems?


For the purposes of that formula the systems are capped at 100% vulnerable. the "133% vulnerable" thing is just behind the scenes and affects how many plexes it takes to being a system back down from vulnerable until we get the cap in place.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#355 - 2012-10-23 18:19:54 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Susan Black wrote:
The defensive/offensive idea Hans is talking about is making it so that you have to shoot rats in defensive plexes as well. I think this is in response to some concern about the ability to farm defensive plexes without the risk of NPC interference.
If someone wants to farm defensive plexes, more power to them. The payout is pretty ****, per Fozzie's equaltion.

LP Gain = Base value of plex * (Contested percentage of the system/100) * 0.75

They payout strictly from the T2 base (modified downwards by contested percentage) ... there is no warzone control scaling. So the ISK/hour potential is very low. Thus, there is no real problem here.


Actually (and unfortunately) that's not the case.

The d-plex payout and (again, unfortunately) mission payouts are both affected by warzone control.

Worse: vulnerable systems count as "120% contested".

So:

Major plex: 25k lp.
Vulnerable system: 120% modifier to d-plex payout.
Defensive plex: 75% of 'normal' payout
Tier3 (frex) warzone control: 75% bonus to payout.

25klp x 1.2 x .75 x 1.75 = 39k lp for 'running' a defensive major plex in a vulnerable system.

Or do a level 4 mission with tier3 WZ control and get about 51k lp. Either way, not great. Don't think either of these should be adjusted by WZ control.

... and... HOW is it you can be more than 100% contested? Is the system so contested it's leaking over to other systems?



Are you stating that the LP payout is too high for FW missions and deplexing?

It really looks like deplexing is only valuable in highly contested systems, which will reward PvP in these systems... Systems will no longer remain 100% vulnerable for extended periods of time, as there is little benefit to the attackers to leave it that way!
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#356 - 2012-10-23 18:22:03 UTC
Ki're Suahien wrote:
My only complaint about the early arrival is that is screws half the factions over. The Minmatar/Gallente had the opportunity to hit tier 5 (and I think the minmatar did) and cash out all their LP, while the Caldari/Amarr were screwed over completely.


I don't know about screwed over completely. Even without a cashout, anyone in Amarr just saw all their earned LP get four times more valuable overnight. That's not exactly a bad thing.

Looking at the warzone map today shows the Amarr have more than doubled their held systems in the last 24 hours, and (given all the vulnerable systems still out there) could conceivably take that up to ~half the systems in the warzone by mid week. Interesting times.
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#357 - 2012-10-23 18:22:56 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Post. On page 6.


The passage of time takes its toll.

Tl:dr - You're getting slow in your old age :P

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#358 - 2012-10-23 18:28:39 UTC
Ugleb wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
To implement this earlier is biggest fuckup CCP can make in FW ever
If that is the case, then it would be great to hear why it is so in your opinion. Just saying that you think something would be bad doesn't help our developers to figure out eventual issues.



I do not see any reason why new fw will work at all.

There is no reason to attack plex at all.
- If you think that people will take any plex on tier 1 if enemy side has example tier3 , why would they ?
- LP is practically worthless after this update because you can not really compete with all those stockpiled tier5 items.
- Defending is so much easier, you can still use 1 day alts for defending.

finally i doubt there is not even contested systems to defend.

There is not driving force for whole militia like tier 5 bonused shop is now.

so people go back to missioning and FW system warfare is over.

You are nerfing FW too hard because you 1st boosted it too much.

And why to implement it on 1 day warning when it has been 6 month broken, now all systems will be on some side and no one can implement their plans.

Maybe Hans want to make sure that minmatar will not be on trouble.


The motivation to offensively plex, even if you are on the currently losing side, is to to take systems and so increase your control tier. If you are not prepared to even try to do that then you really are not cut out to play in a competitive environment. The whole point is that you try to win your rewards by overcoming the opposition.

If that is not for you then yes, go back to mission running, ratting or high-sec Incursions. You will probably be happier.

Even if you do receive fewer LP at lower tiers, you are still receiving LP. Under the 'Retribution' system the relative value of the LP for low tier militias has actually increased thanks to fixed prices. No longer does your militia need to struggle to reach tier 3 or 4, you get constant tier 3 prices so can cash out at any time.

On the other hand, the militia with the upper hand no longer gets the insanely cheap Inferno tier 5 prices. I think that the new system should make lower tiers less of a relative hardship than they were before.

The removal of AFK offensive plexing tactics combined with the elimination of Inferno tier pricing will result in a reduction of farming alts in the Minmatar/Caldari factions which should give the Amarr/Gallente militias reduced plexing competition and a more level playing field. That right there should give the underdogs a boost in pushing back and reaching beyond tier 1.

As for Hans giving the minnies an edge with the surprise deployment, last night the Amarr had over half of the war zone in vulnerable and had begun flipping systems over to their control. Post-patch they could easily be holding a substantial chunk of the territory and most think that the new mechanics will make it harder to take systems. That sounds like the Amarr win from the timing of this to me....


We Amarr benefited from having a ton of systems in the Vulnerable state, and spending a significant effort over the last 24 hours flipping systems....

At the same point in time, Amarr haven't had tier 4 or 5 in a long time (not since I joined FW), and the Minnies were able to push Tier 5 and cashout yesterday before we had the numbers to flip systems... So, Amarr come out swinging with a rapid expansion in our system control, but Minnie's still got one last big payout... (granted, it wasn't as big as it would have been had CCP left them with another month for to farm LP).

Frankly, I think this was the best way to implement this change... and thank CCP for doing it!

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#359 - 2012-10-23 18:33:47 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:

Appreciate the reply from you Hans but I don't think you understood me.

I realise this is stage one of 'the roadmap' that was presented to us in those two forum threads. More will come later - I was asking CCP to please re-examine that roadmap after this set of changes settle in.

My belief and posts in those threads are that the planned system upgrades in that roadmap are terribly uninspired; specifically they only really improve/apply to station systems with research facilities - they needsa lot of further work.

I'd also question whether our feedback is actually desired or relevant if like with such a clear 'roadmap' CCP already know their destination and are merely informing us passengers of where they are going, or whether 'we' actually get any say in that direction they are taking - you clearly do but on several key areas (like defensive plexing remaining different to offensive plexing) I strongly disagree with you.

Even another suggestion would be for defensive plexing becoming more like the "Cost of Hubris" FW mission where you actually have to remote rep your friendlies until the 'attack' is neutralised (which might be more fun and engaging). But out of the box ideas and suggestions like that seem irrelevant/easily dismissed when CCP already have their roadmap planned and have their FW 'CSM' rep telling them this is how it must/should be done.

The feedback process is all quite disheartening compared to pre CSM days IMHO. Cheers.

Edit: Just wanted to re-iterate that the main issue all these changes will have is that they will massively stagnate the already pretty stagnant warzones (as many other long term FW players have spotted). Nothing is changing here to make the warzone more PVP related as it all still revolves around boring PVE button orbiting.


Feedback is always desired and relevant, even if it isn't always actionable, or actionable within a time frame for a release.

Things like completely dynamic PvE content, with spawning NPC's duking it out and having a war where capsuleers warp in and tip the scales would be awesome and interesting, but its also not in line with the majority of you that wish for both warzone control and plexing itself to be a PvP-focused activity, not a race to grind mission-style content. My feedback has always been to adjust plexes to be PvP-friendly dueling grounds where the chance of being engaged while inside one are incredibly high, and where the NPC "content" is the bare minimum needed to encourage PvP fits on ships (in other words, not warp stabbed atrons) but not excessive enough to discourage PvP (as the current NPC's do).

I'd love to see the type of content you describe reserved for a mission overhaul, something that will encourage group play and conflict but be far more interesting if you're not out merely to bait a good fight. In doing so - I want to seperate the PvE aspects of FW from the PvP aspects as much as possible. I understand that orbiting a button is technically PvE and practically incredibly boring, but those of us that have been around a while know that there's some incredibly fun fights to be had when players actually care to plex and counter-plex to begin with, as you pointed out yourself.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#360 - 2012-10-23 18:38:50 UTC
And since we are at it? Why do we orbit stuff instead of shooting stuff? Defensive plexing could be replaced by repping. This would also foster teamwork, instead of one pilot per plex for maximizing LP. Payout could be based on % of damage inflicted or repaired (on the plex structure or on the attackers, so as not to forget our logi friends).

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed