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ECM - reactive.

Author
Doddy
Excidium.
#1 - 2012-10-23 18:07:44 UTC
Ok, another ecm thread, sorry.

I quite like current ecm mechanics, but i do understand that people become frustrated with the "permajammed" issue. Having just been playing around with a reactive armour hardener i think ccp already have a mechanic that would lessen it as an issue. What if all ships in eve had sensors that worked like the reactive hardener. In other words each cycle you are jammed your sensor strength increases as your ships computer battles against the jamming. It would probably take some precise balancing as to how quickly it changed (you don't want ecm ships to be useless 20 secs into a fight) but i think if you could get it right it would work.

In small engagements ecm ships would still be very powerful at the start of a fight, but if you can't take your enemy down fast that advantage will wear away. No more being permajammed by a falcon while a sabre grinds your bs down. As a pilot you know if you can hold out you will eventually get a lock for some payback. Similarly in large engagements ecm ships will be more efficient if they change targets rather than just permajamming the same guy out of the fight. Things like pairing with a damp ship will be more powerful (as you need to jam the same ship less often). Ecm drones will also be more effective if constantly switched rather than just dumped on one target and forgotten about.

All other meachnics around ecm would stay the same. You will still be powerless when you jump solo into a camp with 3 falcons, just as it should be (unless you have a bonkers tank ofc).

I know the ecm haters will think this doesn't go far enough and the ecm fanboys will think its a cop out, but what do those in the middle think? Would this work?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#2 - 2012-10-23 18:29:18 UTC
That could be interesting, but personally I think ECM would be best optimized as a lockbreaking module with a reasonable but not extremely long cooldown. It does not disable your ability to lock onto a ship for 20 seconds. Rather, it will cut all of your locks on activation, and have maybe a 6 or 8 second cooldown. Or something like that. Get rid of all of this 'racial ECM' stuff, too, in my opinion. Furthermore, dedicated ECM ships would have bonuses to some new stat related to them that they will break locks reasonably well, maybe 85 or 90% of the time, on these bonused specialist ships; on unbonused ships the chance is maybe 60% or less to prevent them from being the next big thing to put on any ship with free medslots.

Either way, we're not going to see permajams anymore and there will be a chance to fight back, while still not removing the utility of the module, I think.
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#3 - 2012-10-23 18:29:27 UTC
Some method of diminishing returns per cycle would be nice.

Or don't allow ECM modules to Auto-repeat. Even easier.

Having to manage many ECM's would take practice but it's feasible.
Doddy
Excidium.
#4 - 2012-10-23 19:19:04 UTC
Aglais wrote:
That could be interesting, but personally I think ECM would be best optimized as a lockbreaking module with a reasonable but not extremely long cooldown. It does not disable your ability to lock onto a ship for 20 seconds. Rather, it will cut all of your locks on activation, and have maybe a 6 or 8 second cooldown. Or something like that. Get rid of all of this 'racial ECM' stuff, too, in my opinion. Furthermore, dedicated ECM ships would have bonuses to some new stat related to them that they will break locks reasonably well, maybe 85 or 90% of the time, on these bonused specialist ships; on unbonused ships the chance is maybe 60% or less to prevent them from being the next big thing to put on any ship with free medslots.

Either way, we're not going to see permajams anymore and there will be a chance to fight back, while still not removing the utility of the module, I think.


Well with a lockbreak mechanism ewar ships become much weaker and sensor booster become a defacto anti-ecm mod. It also makes them comparitively more powerful against ships with long lock times like bs which doesn't make much sense. Also players would simply stagger them to achieve a perma-jam unless you made them limited to 1 per target in which case they have become stupidly weak. An unbonused effect with strength like you suggest would easily be powerful enough to make everyone fit one a ship, all large fights would devolve into relock fests (you could simply organise breaks in groups on the enemies logistics and keep them prety much permajammed for example). Everyone would also fit one on all ships (even ratting ships) to be pretty much guaranteed to escape from a single enemy thus killing solo pvp dead.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#5 - 2012-10-23 20:09:34 UTC
The worst thing about ECM is the binary effect. You're retaining this, so your idea is not the answer.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2012-10-23 20:47:03 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
The worst thing about ECM is the binary effect. You're retaining this, so your idea is not the answer.


The problem with ECM is not that it's a binary effect, it's that it's a binary effect that can't dynamically compensate for. If you TD someone, they can still move into firing range or fly to improve their tracking.... If you sensor damp someone, they can move close, or just take a longer time to lock you. If you ECM someone, they have no real-time options to counter it.

What's more, is ECM is too effective as a force multiplier. In group fights, a Rook will remove the combat ability of several ships, whereas other EWAR typically just limits the combat effectiveness of specific ships when in specific situations...
Doddy
Excidium.
#7 - 2012-10-23 22:02:22 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The worst thing about ECM is the binary effect. You're retaining this, so your idea is not the answer.


What's more, is ECM is too effective as a force multiplier. In group fights, a Rook will remove the combat ability of several ships, whereas other EWAR typically just limits the combat effectiveness of specific ships when in specific situations...


The thing is this does not hold true. In fact its more like the opposite. The larger the fight the higher the chance there will be someone not jammed to kill the ecm ships thus unjamming more ships to kill more of the ecm ships. This is why ecm ships are not prevalent in large scale combat at all and when they are used it is usually for a short term dps reduction effect before they all die (alpha fleet alblative scorpions). Ecm is actually very well balanced for large fights, it is only in very small encounters it becomes an issue. And as in a small fight the issue is that a couple of ecm ships can hold all the enemy permajammed reducing this effect balances it without overnerfing ecm for large fights (which most other suggestions would do).
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2012-10-23 22:35:22 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The worst thing about ECM is the binary effect. You're retaining this, so your idea is not the answer.


What's more, is ECM is too effective as a force multiplier. In group fights, a Rook will remove the combat ability of several ships, whereas other EWAR typically just limits the combat effectiveness of specific ships when in specific situations...


The thing is this does not hold true. In fact its more like the opposite. The larger the fight the higher the chance there will be someone not jammed to kill the ecm ships thus unjamming more ships to kill more of the ecm ships. This is why ecm ships are not prevalent in large scale combat at all and when they are used it is usually for a short term dps reduction effect before they all die (alpha fleet alblative scorpions). Ecm is actually very well balanced for large fights, it is only in very small encounters it becomes an issue. And as in a small fight the issue is that a couple of ecm ships can hold all the enemy permajammed reducing this effect balances it without overnerfing ecm for large fights (which most other suggestions would do).


With the exception of TPs, there's a critical number, where too few opponents means any EWAR will be very overpowering, and too many opponents means your EWAR ships can be effectively neutralized.... Part of this is because it's hard to coordinate EWAR as the number of opponets increase. ECM is typically the ONLY EWAR ubiquitously used at the fleet level, because it's very targeted and extremely effective at neutralizing threats. That's also why they get primaried and taken out quickly! Also, there are NO other (tech1) EWAR BS's besides the scorpion.

Most ewar is very situationally useful... Sensor damps are good in kiting situations, or when small vessels are fighting big vessels. TD's are useful against turret ships (soon to be all ships), reducing the applicability of DPS. TP's are good against small ships. However, ECM is very useful in almost every situation except against drone boats, and even then it's fairly effective.
Doddy
Excidium.
#9 - 2012-10-23 22:50:43 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The worst thing about ECM is the binary effect. You're retaining this, so your idea is not the answer.


What's more, is ECM is too effective as a force multiplier. In group fights, a Rook will remove the combat ability of several ships, whereas other EWAR typically just limits the combat effectiveness of specific ships when in specific situations...


The thing is this does not hold true. In fact its more like the opposite. The larger the fight the higher the chance there will be someone not jammed to kill the ecm ships thus unjamming more ships to kill more of the ecm ships. This is why ecm ships are not prevalent in large scale combat at all and when they are used it is usually for a short term dps reduction effect before they all die (alpha fleet alblative scorpions). Ecm is actually very well balanced for large fights, it is only in very small encounters it becomes an issue. And as in a small fight the issue is that a couple of ecm ships can hold all the enemy permajammed reducing this effect balances it without overnerfing ecm for large fights (which most other suggestions would do).


With the exception of TPs, there's a critical number, where too few opponents means any EWAR will be very overpowering, and too many opponents means your EWAR ships can be effectively neutralized.... Part of this is because it's hard to coordinate EWAR as the number of opponets increase. ECM is typically the ONLY EWAR ubiquitously used at the fleet level, because it's very targeted and extremely effective at neutralizing threats. That's also why they get primaried and taken out quickly! Also, there are NO other (tech1) EWAR BS's besides the scorpion.

Most ewar is very situationally useful... Sensor damps are good in kiting situations, or when small vessels are fighting big vessels. TD's are useful against turret ships (soon to be all ships), reducing the applicability of DPS. TP's are good against small ships. However, ECM is very useful in almost every situation except against drone boats, and even then it's fairly effective.


Thats tjust it, ecm is not ubiquitously used at fleet level, it is rather rare. The only fleet doctrine that has used non drone ecm in any numbers since the ecm nerf is the one i mentioned, the goon alpha fleet. And it only had them as a ship for people who hadn't trained maelstrom yet. The truth is that ecm scales much less effectively than its counter, (projected) eccm. Ecm drones are comomn yes but they are also easily countered (smartbombs). There is almost always a couple of falcons about sure but that is cos they make great scouts and thier impact on fights tend to be minimal.

The critical numbers thing is true of almost every facet of combat so picking on it just for ewar is harsh. The same could be said of logistics, dps, alpha and even neuting.

I am all for more t1 ewar bs though. Tiericide should really bring us the tracking disruptor/drone apoc and the damp bonused megathron. I dunno what minmatar pilots would say about a painting bs though .....
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2012-10-23 23:09:14 UTC
Doddy wrote:

Thats tjust it, ecm is not ubiquitously used at fleet level, it is rather rare. The only fleet doctrine that has used non drone ecm in any numbers since the ecm nerf is the one i mentioned, the goon alpha fleet. And it only had them as a ship for people who hadn't trained maelstrom yet. The truth is that ecm scales much less effectively than its counter, (projected) eccm. Ecm drones are comomn yes but they are also easily countered (smartbombs). There is almost always a couple of falcons about sure but that is cos they make great scouts and thier impact on fights tend to be minimal.

The critical numbers thing is true of almost every facet of combat so picking on it just for ewar is harsh. The same could be said of logistics, dps, alpha and even neuting.

I am all for more t1 ewar bs though. Tiericide should really bring us the tracking disruptor/drone apoc and the damp bonused megathron. I dunno what minmatar pilots would say about a painting bs though .....


It depends on size of the fight.... It's prevalent in small to medium scale (decently under 50 pilots) combat... and diminishes as size increases... In terms of EWAR, it's the most commonly used... because it's not so situationally dependent, and because it's very effective...

I once proposed in these F&I forums to create EWAR BS's, and the idea wasn't well received...
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-10-24 05:51:02 UTC
Michael Loney wrote:
Some method of diminishing returns per cycle would be nice.

Or don't allow ECM modules to Auto-repeat. Even easier.

Having to manage many ECM's would take practice but it's feasible.

Good ECM pilots don't auto-repeat to begin with.