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Pos Fuel blocks - A new way to get Liquid Ozon and Heavy water
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Gunnar Hlidar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-22 11:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunnar Hlidar
The idea is simply, make use of Planetary Interaction.

We can get Oxygen and Water from PI, and should be able to react those items at a POS reactor or via PI reactors.

The "recipe":
Heavy water(6x Water = 3x Heavy water(H3O) + 1x Oxygen(O2)) and Liquid Ozone(6x Oxygen + 2x Coolant(to cool down the Ozone to Liquid state) = 4x Liquid Ozone).

This should make it easier to get the missing items for Fuel Blocks, that have been lacking from Ice, ever since Fuel Blocks were introduced to EVE, while still making use of EVEs resource system.
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-10-22 11:35:10 UTC
+1 for this idea.

no idea about the recipe

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
Gunnar Hlidar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-10-22 18:50:35 UTC
The recipe is only an idea of how the reaction formula could be.
I made it so everything would either be fully used up or leave something extra, that's left over from the reaction.

For example:
Heavy water contains 3x Hydrogen molecules and 1x Oxygen. Normal Water, has only 2x Hydrogen.
So we need at least 6x "Water" to react into 3x "Heavy Water" and 1x Oxygen(EVE item, 2x Oxygen molecules) .

Liquid Ozone is simply Ozone in liquid form, hence the need for the 2x Coolant, Ozone is 3x Oxygen molecules, so 6x Oxygen, each having 2x Oxygen molecules, making a total of 12x, and Ozone needing 3x molecules, would make 4x Ozone.
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#4 - 2012-10-22 19:29:52 UTC
Gunnar Hlidar wrote:
The recipe is only an idea of how the reaction formula could be.
I made it so everything would either be fully used up or leave something extra, that's left over from the reaction.

For example:
Heavy water contains 3x Hydrogen molecules and 1x Oxygen. Normal Water, has only 2x Hydrogen.
So we need at least 6x "Water" to react into 3x "Heavy Water" and 1x Oxygen(EVE item, 2x Oxygen molecules) .


nitpicking: "Heavy Water" is NOT water with 3 hydrogen atoms. It's the same as water (H2O) but the H is replaced by Deuterium.

Deuterium is the same thing as hydrogen but has a neutron (so electron + proton + neutron). Standard hydrogen is only an electron & proton.

It actually makes more sense that you'd need water and Enriched Uranium (the radioactive decay of Uranium releases neutrons which could be captured by the water to make heavy water).

Also, to go from oxygen to ozone you effectively need a catalyst. "Oxidizing Compound" sounds close enough.


(like I said, I know I'm nitpicking. i like the idea. this is just my anal personality and my physics degree kicking in)
Luc Chastot
#5 - 2012-10-22 20:57:01 UTC
Yeah, those two can be a pain in the arse when you're trying to manufacture your own POS fuel.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#6 - 2012-10-22 21:19:32 UTC
You can't produce ice in wormholes on purpose.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#7 - 2012-10-22 22:27:44 UTC
Jin alPatar wrote:
Gunnar Hlidar wrote:
The recipe is only an idea of how the reaction formula could be.
I made it so everything would either be fully used up or leave something extra, that's left over from the reaction.

For example:
Heavy water contains 3x Hydrogen molecules and 1x Oxygen. Normal Water, has only 2x Hydrogen.
So we need at least 6x "Water" to react into 3x "Heavy Water" and 1x Oxygen(EVE item, 2x Oxygen molecules) .


nitpicking: "Heavy Water" is NOT water with 3 hydrogen atoms. It's the same as water (H2O) but the H is replaced by Deuterium.

Deuterium is the same thing as hydrogen but has a neutron (so electron + proton + neutron). Standard hydrogen is only an electron & proton.

It actually makes more sense that you'd need water and Enriched Uranium (the radioactive decay of Uranium releases neutrons which could be captured by the water to make heavy water).

Also, to go from oxygen to ozone you effectively need a catalyst. "Oxidizing Compound" sounds close enough.


(like I said, I know I'm nitpicking. i like the idea. this is just my anal personality and my physics degree kicking in)


I was thinking the same thing when I read the OP. lol.

Just to explain the ozone part a bit further...

Ozone is O3 while the oxygen we breath in is O2 thus the above suggestion to use an oxidizer.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-10-23 07:53:21 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
You can't produce ice in wormholes on purpose.


Meh, and WH's weren't supposed to be permanently inhabited when they released them either.

But people have taken up residence in WHs, we might as well add random ice type spawns - such that one might be able to make it on the spawns alone, but just barely (or Imagine having 4 types of towers, and switching the deployment of them based upon the types of ice that have spawned/ice stockpiles).

Here is an idea:
Make an ORE control tower that simply consumes Enriched Uranium and nuclear reactors - but has no bonuses to defenses, just silo capacity (and add a hybrid range bonus to the gallente towers, and decrease their silo bonus


As for PI - Liquid ozone should be easy to make from O2, heavy water and other isotopes should require a nuclear reactor.

H20+ Nuclear reactors (a PI product) = hydrogen isotopes
Reactive metals + nuclear reactors = helium isotopes (lithium, when bombarded by neutrons, can be split into He3, lithium is a very reactive metal)

O2 = oxygen isotopes (although why this is a "fuel is beyond me")

Noble gas + reactive gas? = nitrogen isotopes.

I don't know why Oxygen comes from Noble gases, oxygen is a reactive gas.... Noble gasses are things like helium and argon.
Nitrogen is a fairly inert gas, and thus is closer to acting like a noble gas.

Nitrogen 14 is extremely common (the air is about 70% N14), I don't know why the heck they'd make it seem like some rare element, much less a fuel
The same goes for Oxygen isotopes - very common, no use as a fuel.

Heavy water and Hydrogen isotopes should be essentially the same thing.

I'd propose simplifying the ice/isotopes such that the reactors use either Helium 3 or Deuterium. (which would be of use in fusion reactors)
You could get by with fission reactors, and since towers use them, the question is why they need the isotopes then?
I'd split it so "empire" towers use ice fuels, and are stronger, and ORE "deep space" towers can get by on PI alone, but are much more vulnerable (due to lower power outputs and thus weaker shields).
Sigras
Conglomo
#9 - 2012-10-23 08:00:34 UTC
Jin alPatar wrote:
Gunnar Hlidar wrote:
The recipe is only an idea of how the reaction formula could be.
I made it so everything would either be fully used up or leave something extra, that's left over from the reaction.

For example:
Heavy water contains 3x Hydrogen molecules and 1x Oxygen. Normal Water, has only 2x Hydrogen.
So we need at least 6x "Water" to react into 3x "Heavy Water" and 1x Oxygen(EVE item, 2x Oxygen molecules) .


nitpicking: "Heavy Water" is NOT water with 3 hydrogen atoms. It's the same as water (H2O) but the H is replaced by Deuterium.

Deuterium is the same thing as hydrogen but has a neutron (so electron + proton + neutron). Standard hydrogen is only an electron & proton.

It actually makes more sense that you'd need water and Enriched Uranium (the radioactive decay of Uranium releases neutrons which could be captured by the water to make heavy water).

Also, to go from oxygen to ozone you effectively need a catalyst. "Oxidizing Compound" sounds close enough.


(like I said, I know I'm nitpicking. i like the idea. this is just my anal personality and my physics degree kicking in)

I was just about to post basically this exact thing when I read your comment . . . have an up vote and a quoted comment instead.
Sigras
Conglomo
#10 - 2012-10-23 08:31:52 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Sheynan wrote:
You can't produce ice in wormholes on purpose.


Meh, and WH's weren't supposed to be permanently inhabited when they released them either.

But people have taken up residence in WHs, we might as well add random ice type spawns - such that one might be able to make it on the spawns alone, but just barely (or Imagine having 4 types of towers, and switching the deployment of them based upon the types of ice that have spawned/ice stockpiles).

I disagree and apparently so did CCP when the put WH space in the game

Its easy to live out in 0.0 All you need is a titan, a scout, a POS and a couple of freighter alts, and you can take care of a basically limitless number of people's logistics out in 0.0

WH space is nothing like that, and it never should be. I did a stint in a c5 WH and our corp did a ridiculous crap ton of work to keep our two towers running. My CEO scanned exits every day for at least an hour, we had iteron 5 trains coming and going when we could get out, and we tried to keep 3 months stock of fuel and I still remember doing some late night scanning praying for a new WH because we were down to our last week of fuel. (this was before chain collapsing was discovered to work)

please keep your 0.0 out of my WH
Legion40k
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-10-23 12:01:26 UTC
As much as it sounds like a great idea to make Liquid Ozone and Heavy Water through PI/Reactions, I can't see CCP taking this onboard.

This is mainly because getting Liquid Ozone and Heavy water for manufacturing fuel blocks in sufficient quantities is a pain, but that is only a problem if you mine ice in Hisec. One clear advantage from living in Null/holding sov is that you can have access to the Ice Fields that grant you much higher yield of those materials - you work for the privilege considerably.

Taking that into account, people that don't have Null ice available rely on the market for materials, which is already proven to work just fine - its cheap because there is a market for it!

As for being able to make Isotopes? Super-win-easy-mode! Nah.

In a nutshell it makes it easier to run Hisec and W-space towers, but I don't think CCP want it to be that easy Ugh
Gunnar Hlidar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-10-23 16:47:38 UTC
I think CCP would never allow us to make Isotopes via PI/Reactions, though we never know with the Liquid Ozone and Heavy Water, if they'd put it in, it would prob be costly, like in the area off 3000x Water + 100x Enriched Uranium for 1x Heavy Water.

Yea it would make high sec and WH POS upkeep easier, but so would null sec, since some parts of New Eden don't have Ice fields close by, making one need Titans or Jump Freighters to move fuel to your POS or even Outpost if you have one up.

High sec market is all good, supplying high sec POSers with fairly cheap Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone, but leaving high sec POSers at the mercy of 0.0 import as well as "Macro Miners".

Also with the advent of DUST 514, it would increase the venue they can play on, giving 0.0 players the ability to disrupt high sec PI, if they choose to do so.
Bobo Cindekela
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-10-23 17:26:45 UTC
I dont live in a WH

but I am against anything that would reduce the cost of ice and ice products

maybe that makes me a miner, or maybe that makes me a speculator, or maybe that makes me a bumper

I say NO

You are about to engage in an arguement with a forum alt,  this is your final warning.
Sigras
Conglomo
#14 - 2012-10-23 19:09:15 UTC
The other thing that I just thought of, is that you dont want to make a fixed exchange rate for things in Eve if it can be avoided.

Rig mats cannot be turned into minerals, T2 products cannot be turned into PI products etc etc.

This would make an unprecedented fixed exchange rate between PI and Ice products which should never happen.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#15 - 2012-10-23 19:28:01 UTC

You essentially want to be able to fuel your WH pos completely from PI?

Meh.... I can't decide if this is a good thing or bad thing...

First, you need isotopes too..... which basically means you are directly competing on every level with ice production.... do you want stront production too?

Second, you numbers need serious tweaking: A Large POS requires 150 unites of Heavy Water and Liquid one, and 400 isotopes per hour to operate... So, whatever PI process you use should be able to keep up with this.... while simultaneously not overpowering Ice mining!

Pretty much, t1 products are 20 per hour.... which is too little... That means these would have to be t0 products, produced at 3000 per hour..... In contrast, a Basic Ice mining Mack produces about 35 ice per hour, or 10,500 isotopes, 875 Ozone, and 1750 Heavy Water.

These numbers don't balance well with current PI numbers and POS needs.... your end up making a lot of "quantity" changes to fix this, and I just don't see the reason....

Additionally, eve if these are tier1 products, they will be cheaper to produce on a planet than by mining (which is a bad thing).

Don't mess with it...
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-10-23 19:49:42 UTC
Actually a better idea would be to add an npc trade good to the mixture.
Like say hydrogen batteries.
Thus you get a very nice ISK sink as fuel is always needed.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-10-23 21:09:49 UTC
Sigras wrote:
please keep your 0.0 out of my WH



I haven't been in 0.0 for more than a few minutes - I'm just in favor of a way to make WH colonies self sustaining.

There's still many differences between 0.0 and WHs:
1) No local as an intel tool
2) no capital blobs and cyno drops
3) No outposts, thus without going to K space, you take a massive 25% hit if you try and refine in there (thus you'll still be going to k space)
4) No gate camps, chokepoints, etc

You move in, you claim a system... you never really know if you are alone in the system, but you can mine , research, refine (poorly), and build in there - as long as you can ship in ice from k space.

It just seems wrong that there is a resource accessible in high sec space that you cant get in W space.

I should also point out that there are no ISK faucets in W space - in order to be profitable, you're going to have to get your produced goods to k space (and likely you'll want to get the mined ore there too)

It makes WH space living easier, but it doesn't turn it into null sec
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#18 - 2012-10-23 21:16:36 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Sigras wrote:
please keep your 0.0 out of my WH



I haven't been in 0.0 for more than a few minutes - I'm just in favor of a way to make WH colonies self sustaining.

There's still many differences between 0.0 and WHs:
1) No local as an intel tool
2) no capital blobs and cyno drops
3) No outposts, thus without going to K space, you take a massive 25% hit if you try and refine in there (thus you'll still be going to k space)
4) No gate camps, chokepoints, etc

You move in, you claim a system... you never really know if you are alone in the system, but you can mine , research, refine (poorly), and build in there - as long as you can ship in ice from k space.

It just seems wrong that there is a resource accessible in high sec space that you cant get in W space.

I should also point out that there are no ISK faucets in W space - in order to be profitable, you're going to have to get your produced goods to k space (and likely you'll want to get the mined ore there too)

It makes WH space living easier, but it doesn't turn it into null sec


First off, that resource is not available 'everywhere' in highsec.

Second, I'm pretty sure they are doing massive POS changes in the summer expansion, which means your life will get a lot better in WH's....

Third, CCP really likes to connect the different areas of space.... so you can't be 100% self-sustaining...

Fourth, Rather than ask for PI to make Ice materials, why don't you just ask for grav sites with ice in them.... This makes a LOT more sense...
Gunnar Hlidar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-10-24 11:58:48 UTC
Yea it would be really nice to have 0.0 Ice in WHs.

But the main reason I put up this idea is that high sec Ice simply doesn't cope with he requirements of fuel block manufacture, and Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone are the limiting factor, leaving us with far more Isotopes then we need, when we mine High sec Ice.

If we'd get grav site Ice in WHs or even in high sec(Gelidus type mainly, for the Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone content), there wouldn't be as much "need" for other sources of Ice products.
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#20 - 2012-10-24 14:22:27 UTC
Maybe this idea should be expanded.

Maybe PI should have the ability to use and produce items from non-pi sources. (maybe even setup refineries to refine ore at a good rate. This would be interesting for WHs where POS refining is generally sub-par. You'd get great efficiency but long refining times and decent amounts of work to ship minerals to different planets).


I think PI has quite a bit that can be added to make it a bigger part of the game. Not to make it easier to get certain materials, but to provide more paths for certain materials.
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